getting rid of return tickets

[hi2u_uk]

I think i read somewhere that some train companies are thinking of getting rid of return tickets and are expecting passengers to buy two single tickets but will this not make trips more expensive
eg today i bought a return for £14.90 but the singles are normally £14. if there was no return ticket available then i would be paying £28 for two singles. Am i misunderstanding something ?

 

[JonathanH]

eg today i bought a return for £14.90 but the singles are normally £14. if there was no return ticket available then i would be paying £28 for two singles. Am i misunderstanding something ?

The single fares would generally be reduced under such a change. However, that may well still leave some passengers paying more - see this thread for more details of LNER's recent changes.

LNER fare rises and single leg pricing on many flows, from 11 June

LNER have announced that they will be removing most return tickets from 11 June as part of the widening of single leg pricing. A bit more detail, but not too much, on the LNER website. Simpler Tickets. Better Value We're making it easier to buy the cheapest ticket for your journey. From 11...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

This change has already largely been implemented by LNER across the fares they set. Single fares were reduced as part of that initiative - but, of course, not by 50%. On average, most people will be paying at least 5-10% more.

LNER also, rather cynically, took advantage of this opportunity to silently scrap the intermediate Off-Peak fares on journeys to/from London. This means that people who previously benefitted from their fare being capped by the existence of an Off-Peak fare are now paying a lot more.

LNER have also underhandedly re-routed some of their fares as part of the change - e.g. their previous "Any Permitted" fare from Sheffield to London is now "not via Leicester". This was presumably done in a desperate attempt to avoid letting EMR passengers pay less. Of course it's easily enough circumvented simply by buying a ticket to/from another nearby station - but the average person wouldn't know that and would overpay.

Single leg pricing is capable of being a good thing, but the way it's been done has been terrible, as it's been designed with the sole intent of maximising revenue.

 

[Mark J]

This change has already largely been implemented by LNER across the fares they set. Single fares were reduced as part of that initiative - but, of course, not by 50%. On average, most people will be paying at least 5-10% more.

LNER also, rather cynically, took advantage of this opportunity to silently scrap the intermediate Off-Peak fares on journeys to/from London. This means that people who previously benefitted from their fare being capped by the existence of an Off-Peak fare are now paying a lot more.

LNER have also underhandedly re-routed some of their fares as part of the change - e.g. their previous "Any Permitted" fare from Sheffield to London is now "not via Leicester". This was presumably done in a desperate attempt to avoid letting EMR passengers pay less. Of course it's easily enough circumvented simply by buying a ticket to/from another nearby station - but the average person wouldn't know that and would overpay.

Single leg pricing is capable of being a good thing, but the way it's been done has been terrible, as it's been designed with the sole intent of maximising revenue.

You've highlighted why I think this is a stupid idea generally.

Prices will not be halved as many would assume, but reduced in price leaving many still paying more overall for a return journey.

If, for example, a return costs £10, then the single fare for that journey should be £5. Not £5.20, £5.50, etc.

I also think a switch to single tickets will massively increase fare evasion.

People may buy a single ticket out, however if they know that the barriers will be open, or heading to an unmanned station on the return, many won't bother to buy a ticket.

At least the current single fare pricing covers most of the cost of the price of a return journey.

 

[Hadders]

My local station is Stevenage. Fares to London are:

Anytime Day Return £26.30
Off Peak Return £20.80
Super Off Peak Day Return £13.90 (weekends only)
Off Peak Return £33.60
Anytime Single £17.50
Super Off Peak Single £13.80 (weekends only)

What should the 'simplified' single fares be?

I'd want it to be £13.10 Anytime, £10.40 Off Peak and £6.90 at weekends but there's absolutely no way that is going to happen because the railway would lose revenue.
It'd end up being something like £14.50 Anytime, £11.40 Off Peak with weekend fares withdrawn forcing most passengers to pay more.

 

[OscarH]

with weekend fares withdrawn forcing most passengers to pay more.

Or they'll keep the super off peak weekend fares, and remove the off-peak, so it's always anytime in the week

 

[CyrusWuff]

My local station is Stevenage. Fares to London are:

Anytime Day Return £26.30
Off Peak Return £20.80
Super Off Peak Day Return £13.90 (weekends only)
Off Peak Return £33.60
Anytime Single £17.50
Super Off Peak Single £13.80 (weekends only)

What should the 'simplified' single fares be?

If it was being included in Project Oval, it'd be £13.20 Anytime, £10.40 Off-Peak, and the Super Off-Peak would be abolished.

Time restrictions would be brought into line with TfL's too, so Anytime fares would apply between 0630 and 0930 Southbound, and between 0630 and 0930 & 1600 and 1900 Northbound.

 

[yorkie]

I think i read somewhere that some train companies are thinking of getting rid of return tickets and are expecting passengers to buy two single tickets but will this not make trips more expensive
eg today i bought a return for £14.90 but the singles are normally £14. if there was no return ticket available then i would be paying £28 for two singles. Am i misunderstanding something ?

LNER have been the first to adopt single leg pricing, in the way the DfT want it to be done.

See the existing thread for detailsz but in summary:

• Off peak fare to/from/via London abolished; customers travelling at those times now liable for Anytime fares
• Super off peak fares, and off peak avoiding London, have risen by around 10 per cent since the start of this year (partly due to the annual increase, but single leg pricing implementation has compounded the unfair fare rises)
• Time restrictions tightened in some cases
• Many short distance single journeys are extremely expensive e.g. York to Doncaster £21.30, York to Retford £32.70, and yet York to Newark is 'only' £25.70 (you are allowed to buy to Newark and finish short at Retford)
• Route restrictions introduced, preventing the use of various longstanding reasonable routes.

Yes the DfT could have halved existing fares and not tightened conditions and increased fares.

But did anyone think the DfT would ever introduce single leg pricing on that basis?

Anyone who knows what the DfT are like will know that a halving if fares, with no strings attached, was never a possibility.

Make no mistake, unless there is a drastic change in DfR policy, single leg pricing is a step backwards for anyone who makes return journeys. It's only good - in the way we are implementing it in the UK - if you get a lift/taxi/Uber or whatever in one direction, or if you make triangular journeys (and even then, a creative return would possibly have been much cheaper)

Remember that any changes made to the fares system must raise revenue for DfT; that nearly always means customers paying more money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2023 ==

See:

LNER fare rises and single leg pricing on many flows, from 11 June

LNER have announced that they will be removing most return tickets from 11 June as part of the widening of single leg pricing. A bit more detail, but not too much, on the LNER website. Simpler Tickets. Better Value We're making it easier to buy the cheapest ticket for your journey. From 11...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

Does having singles possibly reduce the effect of Delay - Repay?

I'm far from sure of the workings, but isn't it possible for an extreme delay on one half of a return ticket to result in a repayment of more than half the return fare? If it was two singles, wouldn't that repayment be capped at the single fare? - assuming the return price is twice the single, of course.

 

[yorkie]

Does having singles possibly reduce the effect of Delay - Repay?

Yes; it also affects Delay Repay compensation.

I'm far from sure of the workings, but isn't it possible for an extreme delay on one half of a return ticket to result in a repayment of more than half the return fare? If it was two singles, wouldn't that repayment be capped at the single fare? - assuming the return price is twice the single, of course.

Correct; only half the previous amount would be paid in compensation in this instance.

See:

Delay Repay 120+ min & Single Leg Pricing

On LNER, if you're delayed beyond 120 minutes on either the outward or return, you're entitled to claim Delay Repay. If you hold a Return ticket then you'll receive the cost of both portions, if you have a single then you'll receive a refund for just that single journey (as with a 60+ minute...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

If it was being included in Project Oval, it'd be £13.20 Anytime, £10.40 Off-Peak, and the Super Off-Peak would be abolished.

The Super Off Peak won't exist for contactless payment but there is no reason it cannot continue as a paper ticket or eTicket.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Many short distance single journeys are extremely expensive e.g. York to Doncaster £21.30, York to Retford £32.70, and yet York to Newark is 'only' £25.70

I agree with most of your objections to the way single leg pricing has been introduced by DfT/LNER.

However, York to Doncaster and York to Retford are examples of flows where LNER has not introduced single leg pricing. If they had, and the price of the Off Peak single was set at half the current price of the Off Peak return, the single leg fares would be £14.20 and £16.90, respectively.

It is because York to Newark has had single leg pricing introduced that the Off Peak single fare was reduced to 'only' £25.70 and is therefore cheaper than York to Retford.

If anything, it's the continued existence of return fares on some flows priced by LNER which gives the lie to the claim that it's all about making things simpler for customers. If that was the basis for the change, why not implement it on all flows, rather than cherry-picking?

 

[yorkie]

I agree with most of your objections to the way single leg pricing has been introduced by DfT/LNER.

However, York to Doncaster and York to Retford are examples of flows where LNER has not introduced single leg pricing. #If they had, and the price of the Off Peak single was set at half the current price of the Off Peak return, the single leg fares would be £14.20 and £16.90, respectively.

It is because York to Newark has had single leg pricing introduced that the Off Peak single fare was reduced to 'only' £25.70 and is therefore cheaper than York to Retford.

Yes; this is why 'many short distance single journeys are extremely expensive'; see the main thread, where this was discussed previously:

LNER fare rises and single leg pricing on many flows, from 11 June

LNER have announced that they will be removing most return tickets from 11 June as part of the widening of single leg pricing. A bit more detail, but not too much, on the LNER website. Simpler Tickets. Better Value We're making it easier to buy the cheapest ticket for your journey. From 11...

www.railforums.co.uk

If anything, it's the continued existence of return fares on some flows priced by LNER which gives the lie to the claim that it's all about making things simpler for customers.

To some extent yes, but as described in the main thread, it's also the fact that many other fares (set by other TOCs) overlap; there is a full discussion of this in the other thread.

If that was the basis for the change, why not implement it on all flows, rather than cherry-picking?

Perhaps someone would like to ask LNER; I doubt they'd give an honest answer!

But until/unless anything new comes to light, I don't think there is anything else to say that hasn't already been said on the main thread on the topic.

 

[DeverseSam]

LNER have also underhandedly re-routed some of their fares as part of the change - e.g. their previous "Any Permitted" fare from Sheffield to London is now "not via Leicester". This was presumably done in a desperate attempt to avoid letting EMR passengers pay less. Of course it's easily enough circumvented simply by buying a ticket to/from another nearby station - but the average person wouldn't know that and would overpay.

Why would they mind if EMR passengers paid less?

Is it circumvented by buying eg. a separate loughborough to lutterworth ticket so as to “miss out” leicester?

 

[yorkie]

Why would they mind if EMR passengers paid less?

EMR/DfT mind

Is it circumvented by buying eg. a separate loughborough to lutterworth ticket so as to “miss out” leicester?

No.

 

[northwichcat]

Anytime Day Return £26.30
Off Peak Return £20.80
Super Off Peak Day Return £13.90 (weekends only)
Off Peak Return £33.60
Anytime Single £17.50
Super Off Peak Single £13.80 (weekends only)

What should the 'simplified' single fares be?

My understanding is that if an Anytime Return is purchased you don't have to complete your outward or return journey on the same day. If it's an Off Peak Return the outward journey must be completed the same day, but you can do an overnight break in journey on the return leg.

So say hypothetically the Anytime Return is £50 and the Off Peak Return is £30. Even if the Anytime Single and Off Peak Singles are half of the returns, someone could end up spending £40 if they want the flexibility that the return part of the Off Peak Return currently has, as an Off Peak Single doesn't allow an overnight break in journey.

Does having singles possibly reduce the effect of Delay - Repay?

Or worse - if you buy a single for a night out and intend to return on the train but haven't purchased your ticket before the operator decides to cancel the last train, do they prevent you from buying a ticket (either online or using the machines) and then refuse to arrange replacement transport for you?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

• Route restrictions introduced, preventing the use of various longstanding reasonable routes.

Do these route restrictions with the new single tickets now mean that, say, York to London is no longer valid via Leeds?

That's a routing I've often used on the way back from York until now...

 

[Hadders]

Do these route restrictions with the new single tickets now mean that, say, York to London is no longer valid via Leeds?

That's a routing I've often used on the way back from York until now...

For example, Edinburgh to London is now via York denying the historically valid route via the WCML into Euston.

 

[Haywain]

Is it circumvented by buying eg. a separate loughborough to lutterworth ticket so as to “miss out” leicester?

You'll do well to find any tickets to or from Lutterworth! The station closed in 1969.

Do these route restrictions with the new single tickets now mean that, say, York to London is no longer valid via Leeds?

No, they don't. The routeing on York to London remains 'Any Permitted'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or worse - if you buy a single for a night out and intend to return on the train but haven't purchased your ticket before the operator decides to cancel the last train, do they prevent you from buying a ticket (either online or using the machines) and then refuse to arrange replacement transport for you?

Yes, but if you know you're coming back why not simply buy your return single at the same time as you buy your outward? That's functionally equivalent, for a Day Return, to buying, er, a Day Return, except that if so minded you could use the portions in either order.

If single-fare pricing was standard, then TVMs could easily be modified to encourage this. Booking offices would presumably offer it, and apps and websites already do.

 

[35B]

Yes, but if you know you're coming back why not simply buy your return single at the same time as you buy your outward? That's functionally equivalent, for a Day Return, to buying, er, a Day Return, except that if so minded you could use the portions in either order.

If single-fare pricing was standard, then TVMs could easily be modified to encourage this. Booking offices would presumably offer it, and apps and websites already do.

Precisely what I do when travelling into London. Purchase AP single going in (where my timings are absolutely solid) and then an Off Peak single for the return, to give flexibility. It's generally slightly more than the AP single at that time of evening, but the more frustrating issue is the ratcheting of AP fares in the peak, chasing revenue over volume.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but if you know you're coming back why not simply buy your return single at the same time as you buy your outward? That's functionally equivalent, for a Day Return, to buying, er, a Day Return, except that if so minded you could use the portions in either order.

If single-fare pricing was standard, then TVMs could easily be modified to encourage this. Booking offices would presumably offer it, and apps and websites already do.

You could, but will the average passenger do that?

Not that long ago a work colleague lost her purse, containing her return ticket, when travelling to a work meetup and had to buy a new one. You can argue a mobile ticket is better for that reason but if you haven't yet purchased the ticket you can't lose it, it can't get damaged and it doesn't matter if your phone dies.

When I arrived back in the UK at Manchester Airport earlier in the year, I found there were Advances on sale in the mobile app for the next train. I wouldn't have purchased one of those at the time I travelled to the airport, as I couldn't be sure if the flight would be delayed. And even with a day single there could be the potential disadvantage of an unused ticket if something went wrong either on the trip, or returning from it.

 

[Haywain]

You can argue a mobile ticket is better for that reason but if you haven't yet purchased the ticket you can't lose it, it can't get damaged and it doesn't matter if your phone dies.

But it does matter if you lose your cash or whatever means of payment you might be planning on using.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Yes; this is why 'many short distance single journeys are extremely expensive'; see the main thread, where this was discussed previously:

If by "this", you mean "getting rid of return tickets" in the way DfT/LNER have done, then I can't see the reasoning.

I have looked again at the main thread where you make the same point - but also refer to other flows, like York to Northallerton, where return fares haven't been got rid of - pointing to the high level of single fares.

Yes, those single leg fares are high, but I don't see why the cause of that is; "getting rid of return tickets", when they are the very flows where return fares remain.

But until/unless anything new comes to light, I don't think there is anything else to say that hasn't already been said on the main thread on the topic.

Having followed the main thread I remain puzzled by this specific criticism of single leg pricing, but as you have nothing further to add, that's fine.

 

[yorkie]

If by "this", you mean "getting rid of return tickets" in the way DfT/LNER have done, then I can't see the reasoning.

I have looked again at the main thread where you make the same point - but also refer to other flows, like York to Northallerton, where return fares haven't been got rid of - pointing to the high level of single fares.

Yes, those single leg fares are high, but I don't see why the cause of that is; "getting rid of return tickets", when they are the very flows where return fares remain.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say; if you were saying that those fares were not part of single leg pricing, I did reply to say yes that is indeed the case (as described in the original thread)

If you are asking why LNER have done it this way, again without LNER or DfT explaining the reasoning, we can only guess.

Having followed the main thread I remain puzzled by this specific criticism of single leg pricing, but as you have nothing further to add, that's fine.

If by 'this specific criticism' you mean the fact that 'shorter' distance journeys have generally not seen a reduction in the cost of single fares, then I don't understand why you are puzzled by that criticism, but you are entitled to your views of course.

I would support single leg pricing - despite loss of rights such as enhanced Delay Repay and break of journey over multiple days - if all returns had been exactly halved, without exception and without abolishing fare types. (Where this would have resulted in superflous fares, the more expensive could have been abolished)

But that's not what we got, and unless there is a major change of policy at DfT, that's not what we are ever going to get!

This has all been discussed in the previous thread.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Or worse - if you buy a single for a night out and intend to return on the train but haven't purchased your ticket before the operator decides to cancel the last train, do they prevent you from buying a ticket (either online or using the machines) and then refuse to arrange replacement transport for you?

That's another good point.

Maybe we've spotted the hidden agenda, or am I being cynical (again)...

 

[HurdyGurdy]

If by 'this specific criticism' you mean the fact that 'shorter' distance journeys have generally not seen a reduction in the cost of single fares, then I don't understand why you are puzzled by that criticism, but you are entitled to your views of course.

I meant the 'specific criticism' that shorter distance single leg fares are high due to LNER/DfT's implementation of single leg pricing.

Each of the high fares you quote, both here and in the main thread, are for flows which are priced by LNER, but where the single leg pricing hasn't been implemented. So I'm puzzled why it's suggested that one is a consequence of the other.

I would support single leg pricing - despite loss of rights such as enhanced Delay Repay and break of journey over multiple days - if all returns had been exactly halved, without exception and without abolishing fare types. (Where this would have resulted in superflous fares, the more expensive could have been abolished)

Yes, you make that very clear and I very much agree.

So maybe I've misunderstood, and that by giving the examples you have, your criticism was that those high single leg fares ought to have been reduced, but weren't, because the implementation of a single fare for half the price of a return wasn't done across all flows priced by LNER as well as all ticket types.

If that is what you were seeking to say, I could understand - and would completely agree with - the point you were making. But it's just not very clear to me whether that is the point you are making.

 

[yorkie]

I meant the 'specific criticism' that shorter distance single leg fares are high due to LNER/DfT's implementation of single leg pricing.

Each of the high fares you quote, both here and in the main thread, are for flows which are priced by LNER, but where the single leg pricing hasn't been implemented. So I'm puzzled why it's suggested that one is a consequence of the other.

Can you quote what it is I said that puzzles you?

Yes, you make that very clear and I very much agree.

So maybe I've misunderstood, and that by giving the examples you have, your criticism was that those high single leg fares ought to have been reduced, but weren't, because the implementation of a single fare for half the price of a return wasn't done across all flows priced by LNER as well as all ticket types.

If that is what you were seeking to say, I could understand - and would completely agree with - the point you were making. But it's just not very clear to me whether that is the point you are making.

The general point I am making is that the way single leg pricing has been done on LNER (and what would happen elsewhere if this policy is extended) is very poor, for so many reasons.

Yes, one of the specific points I was making was that the highly priced shorter distance singles should indeed be reduced in value to half the cost of the return and indeed I am criticising LNER for that. The way LNER has done it means that you need to buy longer distance tickets in some cases.

The opportunity was there for genuine single leg pricing in a way that would have benefitted passengers; yes we'd have lost some rights but it would have been worth it (in my opinion) if it had been done without any fare rises, without abolishing off peak fares, and without refusing to half the shorter distance fares.

But realistically there was no way DfT was going to let us have that.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Can you quote what it is I said that puzzles you?

I'm not puzzled about anything you said. I'm puzzled about why and how you have said it. Specifically, why in post 8# you included in a summary of the LNER/DfT single leg pricing changes, the bullet point:

Many short distance single journeys are extremely expensive e.g. York to Doncaster £21.30, York to Retford £32.70, and yet York to Newark is 'only' £25.70

As a bald statement of certain Off Peak single fares, it's completely correct. But positioned as a bullet point in a summary of the single leg pricing changes, it suggests that the reason a York to Retford Off Peak single is so expensive is the new single leg pricing structure it is part of.

It's only when the reader checks the fares for themselves that they can see that York to Retford is not a flow where single leg pricing was implemented. Unlike York to Newark it was not reduced to half the price of the former return and that's why the single fare remains so expensive in comparison.

The general point I am making is that the way single leg pricing has been done on LNER (and what would happen elsewhere if this policy is extended) is very poor, for so many reasons.

I completely agree with your general points.

Yes, one of the specific points I was making was that the highly priced shorter distance singles should indeed be reduced in value to half the cost of the return and indeed I am criticising LNER for that. The way LNER has done it means that you need to buy longer distance tickets in some cases.

If you did make that specific point elsewhere, I must have missed it. So I apologise for that, but as I say I completely agree. However, unlike split ticketting, there are no retailers offering the longer distance, but completely valid tickets you mention.

The opportunity was there for genuine single leg pricing in a way that would have benefitted passengers; yes we'd have lost some rights but it would have been worth it (in my opinion) if it had been done without any fare rises, without abolishing off peak fares, and without refusing to half the shorter distance fares.

Indeed.

But realistically there was no way DfT was going to let us have that.

Although also realistically, the DfT cannot expect to squeeze the passenger very much further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd personally have settled for revenue neutral given the benefits, but it seems quite obvious by the magnitude of the increases (and savings on Delay Repay) that the change on LNER was considerably revenue positive.