Getting on the wrong train PF

[willp]

Hello, Started Journey at Rugby station and finished at birmingham new street, had a E ticket with the information:ticket type - Off peak single, from - rugby, to - bham new street, Route - Avanti.

Got on the first train that arrived to the platform that was going to Bham new street, new to getting on trains so didn't know there was different routes and everything. Every other time i have made this exact journey and alike my tickets have been fine.

tickets were purchased online through the app a day prior to travel and scanned through gates all fine.

ticket inspector stated - we have an incorrect ticket for the train due to a different company's train i believe.

just wondering if there's any way to go about this as the PF states the reasoning 'No ticket' for the PF and we did have a ticket for that day and time we just got on the wrong companys' train. Completely understand that we got on the wrong train and should have paid more attention I just want to know if to bother making appeal or not and this is a done case.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, on the face of it, WMT were correct to issue you with a Penalty Fare. A ticket restricted to a particular operator (e.g. yours was "Avanti only") cannot be used on other operators' trains. If you do board another operator's train, it is considered equivalent to boarding without a ticket at all. I appreciate that's a harsh outcome - but unfortunately that's the way the rules work.

Nevertheless, you have the right to appeal your Penalty Fare. Regulation 16 of the Penalty Fares Regulations sets out the possible grounds for appealing a Penalty Fare:

(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(b) the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;

(c) the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or

(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

Given that there are facilities to buy a ticket at Rugby, you are likely reliant on a 'compelling reasons' appeal under the subparagraph (d). That is very much at the discretion of the appeals assessors, and understandably they will only grant such appeals if the circumstances really are 'compelling'.

Unfortunately I am not sure they would view your case as falling into that category - the idea being that you were advised of the operator restriction when you bought your ticket, so you should have known it wasn't valid on WMT services.

Nevertheless, there are three stages of appeal and I would encourage you to pursue all three stages as there is no cost or risk associated with this. The 'clock' on the 21 day period for the reduced penalty of £50 vs £100 is stopped during any time that you're awaiting a decision on one of your three appeals. We often see appeals accepted by the second or third stage appeals bodies, even where an initial or second appeal is rejected.

The other ground of appeal you might want to consider is based on the signage at the station potentially not meeting the requirements of the Regulations, which would fall within subparagraph (a) above. There have been numerous threads where this has been discussed; the best draft of such an appeal I'm aware of is here.

 

[furlong]

When this happened would there have been time to get off at the next station (Birmingham International I'm guessing from the times concerned) and get on a correct train following behind?
Did you ask for the Penalty to be issued all the way to Birmingham New Street, or were you not given any choice in the matter?

It would have been cheaper to issue the penalty to the next station, then you could have used your existing ticket on a valid Avanti train behind for the rest of the journey. As such, that is what should have happened unless you specifically said you wanted to pay a larger Penalty Fare than necessary and remain on the same train. In such circumstances you can appeal on the grounds it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations because it was issued to a destination beyond the next station without your specific request, something also clearly not in your best financial interest.

Secondly you can appeal that there are 'compelling reasons' based on the confusion caused by the train company restrictions that I presume were inadequately explained to you at the point of sale (look carefully through the process you used to purchase this ticket and see how obvious it is or is not then supply some evidence if it backs up this case). (Unfortunately this is an area where the consumer protection has always been inadequate but there's no harm in trying.)

 

[willp]

Thanks for your replies and advice.

The ticket inspection was not vocal about that option. stated we were on the wrong train and that we would have to be fined for it, then talked about how its 100 pound + original fare or 50 + within 21 days etc etc etc. then asked for our details for the PF. That was all the talking and interaction we had with him. im fairly sure he was wearing a bodycam recording the interaction if that makes any difference to back up this story - if i end up appealing is that something i can mention? so will appeal on those grounds that the full ticket was given unfairly, i believe we were at berkswell or one of the stops before bham international. 28 minutes into the 40 ish minute journey.

Please can you quote or send me a link to the website (s?) of the regulations so i can view and nitpick see if theres any other leads.

the 32 is the later ticket of the two we recieved aswell - the other being timed 9:30.

In regards to the Rugby train station noticeboards and other information about the travel - i can look into it but do not exactly remember what the signs were, Will say the board with information was very difficult to view from where we were standing and boarded the train.

Will also retrace steps in booking a train ticket from trainline. I believe the icon is shown for what company you are getting on so may be a problem for me on that one.

Quick side note we would be appealing for two different PF, understanding the chances of the PF being 'erased' are extremely slim - will all this searching be worth the time for looking for the info as in would the PF just be reduced to 50 + the ticket price for Rugby to bham international or what are we looking at monetary wise.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for your replies and advice.

The ticket inspection was not vocal about that option.

They should have mentioned it as a possibility.

stated we were on the wrong train and that we would have to be fined for it, then talked about how its 100 pound + original fare or 50 + within 21 days etc etc etc. then asked for our details for the PF. That was all the talking and interaction we had with him. im fairly sure he was wearing a bodycam recording the interaction if that makes any difference to back up this story - if i end up appealing is that something i can mention? so will appeal on those grounds that the full ticket was given unfairly, i believe we were at berkswell or one of the stops before bham international. 28 minutes into the 40 ish minute journey.

It's definitely a ground you could consider including in your appeal.

Please can you quote or send me a link to the website (s?) of the regulations so i can view and nitpick see if theres any other leads.

Regulation 16 which contains the appeals procedure is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/16

Regulation 6 sets out the situations in which Penalty Fares can't be charged. Paragraph (2)(b) is the one you would potentially be relying on in relation to the signage. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/6

the 32 is the later ticket of the two we recieved aswell - the other being timed 9:30.

Yes, so a couple of minutes before you reached Birmingham International, assuming you were on the 09:04 from Rugby. That would at least have reduced the fare you owed to £10.80 rather than £13.10.

In regards to the Rugby train station noticeboards and other information about the travel - i can look into it but do not exactly remember what the signs were, Will say the board with information was very difficult to view from where we were standing and boarded the train.

The main requirement is that at least one sign, conforming to the Regulations (which we doubt most signage does - again, see the linked case about Tottenham Hale), is 'readibly visible' at each entrance to the station.

It might help to take some pictures when you next pass by Rugby station to show what is or isn't shown. The burden of proof for issues such as this lies with WMT as the operator, but providing your own proof that they're non-compliant certainly won't hurt.

Will also retrace steps in booking a train ticket from trainline. I believe the icon is shown for what company you are getting on so may be a problem for me on that one.

When I go through the purchase process for your journey on Trainline's app, it clearly states: "Valid only on Avanti West Coast services" as shown in the screenshot below. Now admittedly it's in a small font, but it isn't as if you have to click anywhere to see that. It's on the third line down when it describes the validity of the ticket.

Quick side note we would be appealing for two different PF, understanding the chances of the PF being 'erased' are extremely slim - will all this searching be worth the time for looking for the info as in would the PF just be reduced to 50 + the ticket price for Rugby to bham international or what are we looking at monetary wise.

If your appeal is successful, you'll just be asked to pay the fare that's due. In addition you can ask to get a refund on your unused Avanti ticket, although I imagine the admin fees on that will eat up a large chunk of your refund.

It's hard for us to guarantee you your chances of success - although as mentioned, first and second stage appeals are quite regularly denied even if valid. It's often only the third stage where a panel sits together to decide your appeal, that common sense is actually used, and that we have seen more 'technical' arguments based on the letter of the Regulations being accepted.

But remember that the 'clock' on the 21 day discounted period is stopped whilst you're awaiting an appeal response, so as long as you're relatively quick in bringing an appeal on each occasion, you don't lose the opportunity to pay at the reduced £50 + fare rate.

 

[etr221]

When I go through the purchase process for your journey on Trainline's app, it clearly states: "Valid only on Avanti West Coast services" as shown in the screenshot below. Now admittedly it's in a small font, but it isn't as if you have to click anywhere to see that. It's on the third line down when it describes the validity of the ticket.

View attachment 185787

I note it also says - as a separate sentence - "Any off-peak train". Which contradicts the following statement, as to "only Avanti West Services". So not clear at all, and if I recall/understand the relevant bit of consumer law, a situation that should be interpretated in the consumers favour.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I note it also says - as a separate sentence - "Any off-peak train". Which contradicts the following statement, as to "only Avanti West Services". So not clear at all, and if I recall/understand the relevant bit of consumer law, a situation that should be interpretated in the consumers favour.

I think it would be a struggle to make this case: most people know that the English language is not a precise tool, so a little bit of interpretation is needed. It seems to me that the natural interpretation is that the 2 restrictions must be taken together so the ticket will only be valid on a train that is both off-peak and operated by Avanti.

 

[furlong]

The text there is woefully inadequate. Basically it's been abbreviated into misleading jargon and a consumer unaccustomed to the ways of the railway would not be expected to understand the significance.

"Any off-peak train" whatever that is supposed to mean! "(someone points to a train) Is this an off-peak train?" As we all know, a train can be "off-peak" and not "off-peak" simultaneously, according to the journey and ticket. It's a stupid phrase to use.

And as for the operator, it should state clearly that it is not valid on all services between the two stations because multiple operators run services and it is the purchaser's responsibility to ensure that the operator of any trains boarded is Avanti West Coast and not some other railway company.

And yes, the two pieces of information should really have been combined into a single explanation explaining what the off-peak hours for the journey actually are.

 

[soil]

The text there is woefully inadequate. Basically it's been abbreviated into misleading jargon and a consumer unaccustomed to the ways of the railway would not be expected to understand the significance.

"Any off-peak train" whatever that is supposed to mean! "(someone points to a train) Is this an off-peak train?" As we all know, a train can be "off-peak" and not "off-peak" simultaneously, according to the journey and ticket. It's a stupid phrase to use.

And as for the operator, it should state clearly that it is not valid on all services between the two stations because multiple operators run services and it is the purchaser's responsibility to ensure that the operator of any trains boarded is Avanti West Coast and not some other railway company.

And yes, the two pieces of information should really have been combined into a single explanation explaining what the off-peak hours for the journey actually are.

Also Avanti is terrible branding. How many people know what it is?

Also the NRCoC reads

9.5 Where you:
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

Obviously customer-hostile railway staff might say that 9.5.2 doesn't apply, because something that says "route Avanti" obviously doesn't actually mean "route" because it's the customer's fault that the ticket is designed to be confusing, and if you only have an encyclopaedic knowledge of railway pathing you would realise that Avanti and WMR take the same route so it's not actually 'route' like it says but 'Train Company', and that it's fair to be punished for not knowing to wait for the quicker, nicer train, and that this applies instead:

10.1 You may be charged a Penalty Fare if:
10.1.4 You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid