Germany to Northern Italy HSR

[Sad Sprinter]

Could a second European north/south HSR spine from say Frankfurt down to Milan be viable? Would link Italy with Brussels, Amsterdam and most German cities via train and could provide a second route for German passengers down to the Med. Obviously a huge amount of tunnelling would be required through the Alps but surely this is a "missing link" in Europe's high speed rail network?

 

[ABB125]

Is that not already sort of happening? Gotthard tunnel, new lines being built to 4 track the entirety of Frankfurt to Basel

 

[Wandering Pom]

Could a second ... HSR spine from say Frankfurt down to Milan be viable? ... could provide a second route for German passengers down to the Med.

When you say second route, what do you think the first route is? I ask because I can think of three or four routes already linking southern Germany and northern Italy, with through or connecting international trains.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

When you say second route, what do you think the first route is? I ask because I can think of three or four routes already linking southern Germany and northern Italy, with through or connecting international trains.

Well a second trunk HSL. The first being LGV sud-east and lgv Nord

 

[ABB125]

A more likely route is along the new Brenner tunnel, other sections have already been or are going to be upgraded/new build. Verona to Munich

 

[Austriantrain]

A more likely route is along the new Brenner tunnel, other sections have already been or are going to be upgraded/new build. Verona to Munich

When all is said and built, it will be a decently fast route. Long-term plans e.g. are Frankfurt- Munich in approx 2,5 hours, Munich - Innsbruck in 65 minutes, Innsbruck - Bolzano in an hour etc.

It will never compare to a French LGV though- Central Europe has a different philosophy about new lines (mainly because of a very different distribution of the population compared toFrance; also, because the trans-alpine tunnels are built at least as much for freight as for passengers, and certainly nobody has the money to build them four-tracked, with one track pair as a 350 kph-line). This is not about to change.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apart from the recently completed Gotthard/Ceneri route, the following routes are having long base tunnels built for at least 250km/h running:
- Lötchsberg (completing the existing partly single track tunnel)
- Brenner
- Semmering/Koralmbahn
- Mont d'Ambin (replaces the Fréjus tunnel)

That's a lot of tunnelling and investment by all the Alpine countries, and will take 1-2 decades to complete (the Koralmbahn opens next year).
Germany is investing big sums on the Frankfurt-Basel route and intends to do the same on Munich-Kufstein for the Brenner upgrade.
Fast freight and connectivity are key drivers for the capacity increase, not so much high-speed passenger trains.

 

[nwales58]

Fast freight and connectivity are key drivers for the capacity increase, not so much high-speed passenger trains.

Absolutely. The shortage is of capacity, not speed. Remember what happens whenever a bit of crucial route closes, Rastatt, or the Rhine dries up in summer.

 

[Austriantrain]

Apart from the recently completed Gotthard/Ceneri route, the following routes are having long base tunnels built for at least 250km/h running:
- Lötchsberg (completing the existing partly single track tunnel)
- Brenner
- Semmering/Koralmbahn
- Mont d'Ambin (replaces the Fréjus tunnel)

Doubtful that there will be much 250 kph running on the Lötschberg and Brenner. The speed differentials to freight become too big and eat valuable paths. It will be more like the Gotthard - trains pathed for 200 with the option to run faster in case of delays.

The Semmering tunnel is too short to make a difference between 200 and 250 anyway. The Koralm is different though; capacity is less of an issue there and at some point, someone will run at 250 throughout (ÖBB will, as usual, run at 230, but there will probably be some ICE sets running there that very well might reach 250; probably not pathed for it though because of the Takt - and Trenitalia is also very likely at some point).

The Mont d‘Ambin tunnel seems planned for 220, but there might/will be faster running on the access lines, when built.

 

[CdBrux]

When all is said and built, it will be a decently fast route. Long-term plans e.g. are Frankfurt- Munich in approx 2,5 hours, Munich - Innsbruck in 65 minutes, Innsbruck - Bolzano in an hour etc.

Do you have any links that give some more details to these plans? All I know is DB plans to build some new lines around Rosenheim which is in part, or even in main, driven by increasing freight capacity to allow the Brenner tunnel to be better used

 

[Austriantrain]

Do you have any links that give some more details to these plans? All I know is DB plans to build some new lines around Rosenheim which is in part, or even in main, driven by increasing freight capacity to allow the Brenner tunnel to be better used

That is the German Language Information page, I Hope a Browser can translate it

Startseite - Bahnprojekt Brenner-Nordzulauf

You can find some Info in English by googling „Brenner northern Access“.

The project basically involves a completely new second line, mostly in tunnel, with various links to the existing line, so to have four tracks all the way. It will be very similar to the existing second, tunneled line from around Wörgl to (close to) Innsbruck.

Something similar will occur on the Italian site.

 

[CdBrux]

That is the German Language Information page, I Hope a Browser can translate it

Startseite - Bahnprojekt Brenner-Nordzulauf

You can find some Info in English by googling „Brenner northern Access“.

The project basically involves a completely new second line, mostly in tunnel, with various links to the existing line, so to have four tracks all the way. It will be very similar to the existing second, tunneled line from around Wörgl to (close to) Innsbruck.

Something similar will occur on the Italian site.

Thanks, I had only seen a part of that before.

I was wondering how they planned to reduce Munich to Frankfurt to 2.5 hours, further research found the main project, after completion of Stuttgart 21 (always bad idea to name a project after the year you hope for completion!!) is a new line from Frankfurt to Mannheim. Given it takes 2h40 just to get from Munich to Mannheim, which is probably reduced by 20 mins with opening of Stuttgart 21, a lot more time needs to be found somewhere!

Being Germany it takes a lot of time to get these projects beyond the drawing board though...