Germans Enforcing Tickets

[rf_ioliver]

HKL (Helsinki) ticket inspectors always seem to travel around in large groups, similar to those on Manchester Metrolink, and usually give the impression of being very fierce.

Indeed, at least on the metro their tactic seems to be to board at all the doors in that section* of doors and then split so groups remain at the doors and one group takes position to run down the centre section of the carriage.

If they're operating in plain clothes such as I've seen on weekends if you're awake you can spot them...except by then it is too late.

t.

Ian

*Helsinki metro trains are all 2 carriage units operating either as a 4 car or 6 car set. The older series have no interconnections between the 2 cars, the newer sets do.

 

[CC 72100]

Most of the Paris suburban stations are indeed fully barriered but ignored by a significant minority through various (sometimes entertaining) means. However when they do their barrier grips it's pretty fearsome with big guys, guns and dogs aplenty.

Much of suburban Paris is no paradise, I wouldn't fancy that having one man on the barrier would make a bit of difference, or certainly that job myself...

Hmm. The barriers are not the strongest mind and don't take much thinking to get around. However, I still find it strange that there are no barriers at the likes of St Lazare, considering some of the places that it serves not having the best reputation (Mantes-la-Jolie, Cergy for example)

Indeed, the two areas above are just some examples of places in suburban Paris that quite frankly, as a white englishman I wouldn't go to. I could imagine that one lone barrier attendant would see a fair few blades if he tried to tackle the fare evaders (The other Sunday morning someone was stabbed on a train between Rambouillet and Paris, and I didn't think that line was too bad!)
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.... Thankfully, there was a wide gate that had a luggage slider at the side so we walked through that, the amount of people who followed us through was unbelievable. Almost everyone did the same as us as their tickets weren't accepted..... No station staff which would have been able to open the barriers which I found odd. We saw no RATP staff other than in the ticket offices and they seemed to like to hide in the ticket office all the time....

Wide gate = free travel for all

Lack of staff we've all cited as something we're not too keen on (us English interns at work). I mean my train broke down at Gare de Lyon the other week, and we only saw 1 staff member about 5 minutes after it was confirmed that it wasn't going anywhere, with announcements telling us to take a train from Nation. Metro 1 was packed between Gare de Lyon and Nation (had to pull the doors apart where somebody got stuck), walk through Nation station to be confronted by a nice human turd in the corridor, and then down to platform level where the train was waiting with no staff. One quiet announcement mumbled the words Marne La Valée so I gave a shout out that this train was for MLV (and recieved a few 'merci's for doing so!), but of course, I wanted the other branch...

Get to Vincennes, next Boissy train is showing as 40 minutes away. Once again no staff.... I did the bus back!
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It was particularly rife on one trip to Paris a few years ago. Witnessed two people go through the barriers on one ticket and saw someone pry open the exit only gates and walk through. I even had one person quickly squeeze through the ticket barrier behind me after I had passed through.

Fairly standard stuff. I had one person ask me the other day if she could go through with me - she got a point in the direct of the ticket machine.

I know someone has said about suburban DOO in London, but that's to be expected. This happens be it in deepest banlieue territory, commuter suburbs or central Paris; i've never seen anyone traveling ticketless in Central London.

There were also a fairly substantial group of Romanians at Gare de Lyon (they cause a fair amount of various problems on the network) who were following people through - the one turned round in very broken french and asked me whether I was traveling when I got wind of this so held off going through - the cheek!

Pointed this out to the RATP staff member milling around the concourse (I was shocked to see visible staff, and on a Sunday!) telling him about this, and was greeted with a rather gaelic shrug. You can lead a horse....

 

[Squaddie]

Pointed this out to the RATP staff member milling around the concourse, and was greeted with a rather gaelic shrug.

Was he Scottish?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Whilst the Metro in Paris is generally OK - the RER can be very unsavoury - I seem to recall fare evasion was around 20% , it has the highest level of staff assaults (that is if you can ever find any staff around) - good infrastructure, bad vibes and often vandalised trains.

Berlin has an OK vibe - was there last week and was checked twice on the S-Bahn.(both times by plain clothes man working alone)

 

[CyrusWuff]

In Cologne it was totally different, there was staff able to assist and the general feeling was a much more British kind of thinking. They all seemed friendly, like they enjoyed their job. We had two plain clothes ticket checks, one was a big guy, the other looked like she was 18, but works out a lot.

The first time I went to Cologne, I had cause to visit the Travel Centre at the railway station. The clerk who served me was from Newhaven and had moved across from SouthCentral shortly after privatisation.

 

[yorksrob]

"Vee have vays of making you buy ze ticket !!!"

(I'll get my coat).

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst the Metro in Paris is generally OK - the RER can be very unsavoury - I seem to recall fare evasion was around 20% , it has the highest level of staff assaults (that is if you can ever find any staff around) - good infrastructure, bad vibes and often vandalised trains.

The Foreign Office website warns visitors to Paris that there has been a lot of crime committed against tourists travelling on the RER line to the Airport recently.

 

[CC 72100]

Whilst the Metro in Paris is generally OK - the RER can be very unsavoury - I seem to recall fare evasion was around 20%

Sounds about right -depends on line and time of day though.

, it has the highest level of staff assaults (that is if you can ever find any staff around)

Very true, often one staff member (visible) per station behind the perspex information point thing.

- good infrastructure,

I'd say 'at straining point' but it's an impressive system in theory

bad vibes and often vandalised trains.

Again the extent depends on line. The Northern bits of the B and D are particularly bad, but then other bits aren't so much, like the Eastern branches of the A (of course 'm biased!)

As for vandalism - the units refurbished on the line B which entered service at the same time as the new ones on the A are in much worse shape with etching, graffiti, acid attacks on the doors etc, so I think it does most certainly depends on line -> the areas it serves.
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The Foreign Office website warns visitors to Paris that there has been a lot of crime committed against tourists travelling on the RER line to the Airport recently.

I'm not surprised - not very nice areas.

I'm flying back home on Xmas eve and did a trip to the airport on Sunday - I felt a lot more safer on the non-stop 'express'* than I would do if we'd have been stopping at some of the places we passed through.

*When I say express, I ought to point out that the stoppers are timetabled for 32 minutes Gare de Nord - CDG 2, the 'express' ones 30, so you can imagine the sort of speeds we got up to.... was more of a pootle through Northern Paris than airport express.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sounds about right -depends on line and time of day though.

I'm not surprised - not very nice areas.

I'm flying back home on Xmas eve and did a trip to the airport on Sunday - I felt a lot more safer on the non-stop 'express'* than I would do if we'd have been stopping at some of the places we passed through.

*When I say express, I ought to point out that the stoppers are timetabled for 32 minutes Gare de Nord - CDG 2, the 'express' ones 30, so you can imagine the sort of speeds we got up to.... was more of a pootle through Northern Paris than airport express.

The clientelle on the Airport line is awful - the "express" may be marginally better - but I would never use it again. (ever) - beggars , "never-do-wells" , people stretched out on seats with open scabs etc. This was at 1830. So much for the French superiority. Previously been on trains with gangs of kids tagging the interiors with no fear - and not just small tags either.

 

[SF-02]

We had similar experience on our recent trip to Eurostar in Paris - we changed at Lille - the local train had no barriers and there was no ticket control on the train as well. They must do some random check though and the fines must be sky high as well to deter any one from taking a free ride.

But that's the same as a lot of local lines in London - no barriers and no guards! They don't have sky high deterrents hence the amount not paying.

Paris does sound bad. I can't think of anywhere in London as bad, though places like Woolwich aren't great. There's been at least one attack on staff in the past year and possibly more. I've seen a group of 6 men negotiating with the guy at the disabled barrier there to be let through after getting off a train. The station staff member was laughing along and joking. Wasn't bothered they had no tickets. Then someone with a buggy turned up and went through and they all followed through the open gate. If 2 inspectors get on a train watch the numbers of people move down along the carriages to move away from them. Last time it was about 20.

Also on that line I've seen quite a few drunks at all hours and lots of people with shoes and socks off and their feet (often not smelling great) on seats opposite. That is actually really quite frequent now. People have increasingly put their feet on opposite seats but for some reason more are taking off shoes and doing it bare feet. Weird and pretty gross seeing the type of people doing it with manky feet! Not as bad as Paris though with all the other stuff.

 

[sheff1]

The Foreign Office website warns visitors to Paris that there has been a lot of crime committed against tourists travelling on the RER line to the Airport recently.

.. but don't forget, this is the most romantic city in the world

 

[jon0844]

I have to say that I rather hate Paris. I like France, but Paris is particularly horrid and seems to confirm all the worst stereotypes.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Back to the OP, the deal in Germany and most other Northern European countries is that you are expected to buy your tickets in advance and it's considered a dereliction of one's duty as a citizen not to do so. It's not quite like that in the UK... so we have to spend much more on revenue protection/gating etc. accordingly. That said, the other thing that goes with the German urban fares systems is that they are simple thus removing the potential for debates on validities so something for us to learn from here.

 

[Squaddie]

Back to the OP, the deal in Germany and most other Northern European countries is that you are expected to buy your tickets in advance and it's considered a dereliction of one's duty as a citizen not to do so. It's not quite like that in the UK... so we have to spend much more on revenue protection/gating etc. accordingly.

I agree. Despite every Swiss station being wide open, with no barriers, gates or staff checking tickets, and most stations only having ticket machines, I have never, ever witnessed anyone being caught without a ticket or with an incorrect ticket on a Swiss train. But I think it's as much to do with the simplicity of the Swiss ticketing system, the ease with which you can buy tickets (clearly, maintaining a fully-operational ticket machine on even the tiniest, most remote station is not the challenge that it seems to be in the UK) and the clarity of the rules as much as it is to do with the honesty of the Swiss people.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have to say that I rather hate Paris. I like France, but Paris is particularly horrid and seems to confirm all the worst stereotypes.

I don't mind Paris, it's just the metro I am not keen on having had similar problems with barriers working, or rather, not working. I travelled a few years ago from Gare du Nord to Gare du Lyon. I bought the ticket at nord where it open the barrier, but when I tried to exit at Lyon it did not open them. There was no one around in the end I did find one exit that I could get through, but it was along walk back into the main station. That incident has since put me off the metro, although I have been back since, and bought the single metro tickets or day passes at Waterloo or St. Pancras and they did work fine.

I have been to Lille a few times and there are loads of people in the main city centre stations to help and they have been really nice.

I have not had a problem in other European or further afield metro systems.

(I like the south of France, the lovely villages, food and wine.)

 

[maxiboy]

I think the exact policy about ticketing on RE and RB services (i.e. not S-Bahn or IC/ICE) depends on the region, but I've noticed that when DB Regio is the operator, a buy-before-you-board policy is usually enforced (there is exceptions). Some of the private operators however have TVMs onboard and Metronom, for example, which runs longer distance Regional Express services in Northern Germany sells tickets onboard subject to a small supplement. Some of the private operators in the NRW area even promote the fact that you can buy on board in their literature (you have to buy from the TVM where available shortly after boarding though).

You can buy tickets on InterCity and ICE services in cash only.

Metronom does not sell tickets on board anymore as a special fare system for regional services has been introduced within the state of Niedersachsen, the Niedersachsen-Tarif, that must not be sold aboard trains. Whereas DB Regio's Stendal-Rathenow service in the North East does have TVMs onboard as well – as it is a stopping service serving several rural halts without any infrastructure.

The train managers on German IC and ICE services will gladly accept cash as well as Visa or MasterCard (Debit & Credit), but they do not accept girocard debit cards.

Unless there was an opportunity to buy at the station, you will have to pay the supplement (Bordzuschlag) in addition to the regular fare, or on penalty fare services (most but not all local services), a penalty fare of twice the regular fare or 40 Euro, whichever is higher.

 

[30907]

I agree. Despite every Swiss station being wide open, with no barriers, gates or staff checking tickets, and most stations only having ticket machines, I have never, ever witnessed anyone being caught without a ticket or with an incorrect ticket on a Swiss train. But I think it's as much to do with the simplicity of the Swiss ticketing system, the ease with which you can buy tickets (clearly, maintaining a fully-operational ticket machine on even the tiniest, most remote station is not the challenge that it seems to be in the UK) and the clarity of the rules as much as it is to do with the honesty of the Swiss people.

From what I read on another forum, since Swiss operators began operating a strict buy-before-you-board policy, there have been a number of stories in the media about penalty fares being harshly applied (in the eye of the one penalised, at least).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I have to say that I rather hate Paris. I like France, but Paris is particularly horrid and seems to confirm all the worst stereotypes.

I agree - nice architecture in the immediate city - but the underwhelming vibes are not good. Damned expensive and a (stressed) population who are far from friendly. Given up on it - much prefer Germany , Spain and Holland for leisure trips. Much better value and generally very good experiences with the loclals. France is probably the "basket case" of Europe now.

 

[Clip]

It is zero tolerance though, no ticket or incorrect ticket, and you have to pay. There's not many staffed ticket offices over there either.

Really? But we are constantly told over here that having ticket offices open is essential, especially for tourists who come into the country and may be confused on how to buy an oyster or use machines. Just how do they do it, then?

 

[WestCoast]

Metronom does not sell tickets on board anymore as a special fare system for regional services has been introduced within the state of Niedersachsen, the Niedersachsen-Tarif, that must not be sold aboard trains. Whereas DB Regio's Stendal-Rathenow service in the North East does have TVMs onboard as well – as it is a stopping service serving several rural halts without any infrastructure.

The train managers on German IC and ICE services will gladly accept cash as well as Visa or MasterCard (Debit & Credit), but they do not accept girocard debit cards.

Unless there was an opportunity to buy at the station, you will have to pay the supplement (Bordzuschlag) in addition to the regular fare, or on penalty fare services (most but not all local services), a penalty fare of twice the regular fare or 40 Euro, whichever is higher.

Sorry, some of the info I posted was indeed out of date. Thanks for the updates!
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Really? But we are constantly told over here that having ticket offices open is essential, especially for tourists who come into the country and may be confused on how to buy an oyster or use machines. Just how do they do it, then?

Some observations;
-By having a more straightforward ticketing system
-By having an easy to use multilingual website with loads of info all in one place, or with links to local transport bodies websites
-By having TVMs that can sell virtually all tickets, including for tickets in the future, tickets from other stations, ranger tickets, multimodal tickets and they can also offer timetable information (including printouts).
-By offering a print at home option on virtually all tickets (including rovers, area passes e.t.c).

All the big stations are well staffed with Travel Centres and help desks though. No gatelines so they can afford to have more staff on trains, I've noticed a lot more trains are double-manned than the UK. I've been on services with a guard and two ticket inspectors onboard for the whole journey. Also been on services with security personnel accompanying guards at night. The urban services often have 'take no prisoners' spot checks that have been mentioned before as well, which act as a real deterrent to fare evaders.

I mean there's a lot wrong with DB, but I've always thought ticketing was one of their define plus points over the UK.

 

[Squaddie]

From what I read on another forum, since Swiss operators began operating a strict buy-before-you-board policy, there have been a number of stories in the media about penalty fares being harshly applied (in the eye of the one penalised, at least).

There were a few widely-publicised cases of the new rules being strictly applied (e.g., if you buy a ticket using your smartphone the purchase must be completed before the departure of the train), but they would not have been applied "harshly". The rules are clear and the vast majority of people understand them.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Indeed, SBB attempted to apply penalty fares on all trains right across the country, ie including intercity, but have recently relented following public opposition. So now, outside Penalty fare areas, if there is a conductor on the train you can buy a ticket from them provided you do it on the platform before boarding. As Squaddie points out, they've had particular problems with smartphone tickets which are now quite widely used (but are not instantaneously delivered like those funny old bits of cardboard as tickets still used in many places...)
!). On France, give the rest of the country a try! Paris is indeed monstrously expensive and messy, but there's lot of other options: Strasbourg, Toulouse, Montpelier, La Rochelle & Cannes immediately come to be mind....

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

)
!). On France, give the rest of the country a try! Paris is indeed monstrously expensive and messy, but there's lot of other options: Strasbourg, Toulouse, Montpelier, La Rochelle & Cannes immediately come to be mind....[/QUOTE]

Yes I agree, there are loads of great places in elsewhere in France, including the
South.

 

[gingerheid]

I've made hundreds of bus and tram journeys in Tallinn and never had a ticket checked once.

I think their deterrent factor comes from the fact that when they do check tickets they mean business; they lock all the doors and turn off the ticket machines, and keep a police van ready round the corner for anyone with neither a ticket nor a much larger amount of cash than the original cost of the ticket.

I had my ticket checked on every single train and metro journey I made in Denmark, either by a uniformed or plain clothes conductor or, in the case of one metro journey, the uniformed and non-uniformed people seemed surprised to meet each other when they got to the middle. Given what the tickets cost there though I'm not surprised they are a bit more active about things!

 

[317666]

Once on the S-Bahn ring line in Berlin, a pair of undercover ticket inspectors got on, made an inspection then got off at a station. At the very next station, another undercover inspector got on, only to be told by everyone that we'd just been checked - he walked off whistling and got off at the next station!

 

[jon0844]

That can happen here. In fact it happened not so long ago. Lone RPI boarded one station after two RPIs had already gone through. She quickly found out from us all and got off at the next stop.

Of course we could have all been lying and none of us had tickets.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Sometimes buying a ticket in Germany is very hard. I once had to get an early Saturday morning train from Leverkusen Mitte to Dusseldorf airport. As the ticket office would not be open at that time, I tried to buy a ticket the day before and was told it would not be possible. On arrival at the station the next day, I found that all the ticket machines were card only and none took cash. I would have missed my train and flight if somebody hadn't told me what "bargeldlos" meant.

Still its not as bad as Holland where many ticket machines only accept an obscure Dutch cash card.

 

[Oscar]

Sometimes buying a ticket in Germany is very hard. I once had to get an early Saturday morning train from Leverkusen Mitte to Dusseldorf airport. As the ticket office would not be open at that time, I tried to buy a ticket the day before and was told it would not be possible. On arrival at the station the next day, I found that all the ticket machines were card only and none took cash. I would have missed my train and flight if somebody hadn't told me what "bargeldlos" meant.

Still its not as bad as Holland where many ticket machines only accept an obscure Dutch cash card.

Local Verkehrsverbund tickets in Germany normally have a time limit to their validity - in this case 3 hours*. They can't normally be issued early. As in many European countries, German banks issue local cash cards and credit cards, as far as I'm aware British-style debit cards simply don't exist. Most people use cash cards for day-to-day purchases and credit cards online. Ticket machines in larger stations seem to accept credit cards (this means also British debit cards) as well as local cash cards or cash, ticket machines in smaller stations do not.

* - http://auskunft1.vrsinfo.de/cgi-bin...ioTicket</PREISSTUFE_NAME></VRSTARIF>&LANG=DE

Ticketing in Nordrhein-Westfalen is complicated - there are lots of small Verkehrsverbünde (organisations which set timetables and fares for local public transport, similar to PTEs but with more power) and a region-wide NRW-Tarif. However, neighbouring German Verkehrsverbünde often have agreements on cross-border ticketing and this case is no exception. There is a special Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr / Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Sieg ticketing system (http://www.vrr.de/blaetterkatalog/Inet_2013_VRS_VRR/blaetterkatalog/) which is the appropriate ticket for your journey.

 

[WestRiding]

Having just returned from Hamburg too, and using the 9am group ticket (five people for 10.40 euros) we only had our ticket checked once and that was on route 62 of the harbour ferries. But yes, everyone seemed to obediently purchase tickets. I do think it is the German way, and they are brought up better than over here.

 

[tannedfrog]

Local Verkehrsverbund tickets in Germany normally have a time limit to their validity - in this case 3 hours*.

Is that not 3 hours from validation though?

Given that it is possible to buy 4erTickets and validate each journey, it must be possible to pre-purchase an EinzelTicket and only validate when starting the journey?

Also cash is still king (even for large purchases in places like Saturn) in Germany so I am surprised that there are any ticket machines that don't take coins and notes.

Compared to Belgium where I once saw an out-of-town shoe shop that would only take cards!