German driver looking to compare German to British rail operation

[BR111]

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if this is the right area or even the right forum to post in, but I'm a train driver in Germany who grew up in Britain, and would like to talk to others to compare the differences and similarities in terms of rail operation and even rail stock, as when I visit my family here in the UK, I do take an interest in the differences I see to when I am working back home. For anyone who is interested, I'd also be very happy to discuss the German rail system with others here, although I am aware this is a forum for the UK rail and so that might not fit into here.

Thanks for your time

 

[30907]

Wilkommen an Bord!
The International Transport sub-forum might be the best place to discuss German practice, and there are (I think) one or two members who have German as their first language, and certainly a fair few who know a bit about both.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if this is the right area or even the right forum to post in, but I'm a train driver in Germany who grew up in Britain, and would like to talk to others to compare the differences and similarities in terms of rail operation and even rail stock, as when I visit my family here in the UK, I do take an interest in the differences I see to when I am working back home. For anyone who is interested, I'd also be very happy to discuss the German rail system with others here, although I am aware this is a forum for the UK rail and so that might not fit into here.

Thanks for your time

Plenty of people here with a keen interest in your system - please engage. (every time I travel to your country - I am well treated by on board and station staff , and have sometimes given suitable advice on places to see and travel in the UK on reciprocal free passes !)

"Du Bahn ist du bahn" !

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Of my limited experience with German railways, I was struck by a few things which are seldom seen nowardays in the UK:

• Actual over-night intercity-services. Here in the UK we have a couple of sleepers and that's it.
  
• Carriages without central door locking - entirely disappeared from mainline operations here for over a decade.
  
• Suitably long, loco-hauled trains for inter-city services; rather than the short 4-5 carriage DMUs we're sometimes left with for long-distances (see Cross Country trains for example).

 

[BR111]

Thank you for your replies. I will check out the international sub forum then!

Plenty of people here with a keen interest in your system - please engage. (every time I travel to your country - I am well treated by on board and station staff , and have sometimes given suitable advice on places to see and travel in the UK on reciprocal free passes !)

"Du Bahn ist du bahn" !

I certainly enjoy my FIP priviledges. It's crazy to think that I can get from Germany to London for about 70€, including Standard Premier on the Eurostar. And the free travel coupons are great for exploring too. I have to say most of the guards in the UK are very friendly and take an interest when they see my FIP tickets.

Of my limited experience with German railways, I was struck by a few things which are seldom seen nowardays in the UK:

• Actual over-night intercity-services. Here in the UK we have a couple of sleepers and that's it.
  
• Carriages without central door locking - entirely disappeared from mainline operations here for over a decade.
  
• Suitably long, loco-hauled trains for inter-city services; rather than the short 4-5 carriage DMUs we're sometimes left with for long-distances (see Cross Country trains for example).

NightJets are still very common practice, although DB do not provide them anymore - they are 100% an ÖBB service now. However, the staff on board has not changed - so for the most part it will be DB staff in Germany.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with Central door locking, but I'm sure if I knew the German term I could shed some light on the matter. A quick google didn't give me much insight unfortunately, but this is also something from the UK side I'd be interested in. I'd be happy to go into detail about our door closing process, the limitations and requirements of all 3 variants (TB 0, SAT, TAV, to a degree SST which is used in InterCity 1 coaches, but I have no training on them, although could definitely ask colleagues), as well as how they work and where they are used.

Loco-hauled InterCities were also under "threat" of becoming EMUs, although DB did decide against it in the end. You might have heard that we are getting a new Loco hauled InterCity train, being built by Renfe, which I believe will be going at 230 km/h, but I'm 100% certain it's at least 200 km/h. The InterCity 2 trains are also becoming a much more common sight and are starting to become a bit more reliable. InterCity 1 will be staying around for a few years to come too, although unfortunately the Class 120 is pretty much history, and by the end of the year no services will be 120 hauled.

 

[tsr]

Actual over-night intercity-services. Here in the UK we have a couple of sleepers and that's it.

To be fair, the WCML, ECML and GWML have some very late trains. It’s possible to leave London later for Swansea, Manchester or Leeds than it is for a few destinations around the south-east, which is daft but brilliant at the same time. All the last trains to the above stations arrive around 0200 on paper, which many people would class as a fair attempt at “overnight”. There are also a fair few very early trains on these routes as well.

 

[Ken H]

I have travelled on S-Bahn and D-trains round Berlin. The big difference is that trains seem to hustle. the UK they seem to dawdle. And on the Berlin S-bahn, the door opening sequence starts before the train has come to a complete stop. They are one person operated. I assume the driver presses the door open button as the train enters the platform, and once the train has slowed to a set speed the door opening starts. Plug doors, so no danger of people falling out as there is no gap before the train stops. But it saves valuable seconds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Carriages without central door locking - entirely disappeared from mainline operations here for over a decade.

Pretty much all DB stock (I doubt there's any left that doesn't) has door blocking (which disconnects the inside handle when the train reaches 5km/h until it drops below that) and an autoclose feature. On most if not all stock, I believe there has been a modification which engages the autocloser every 10-20 seconds or so when the train is moving over 5km/h which also locks the outside handle. Some regional stock has also been modified for "sided" door release, though on many trains (and this is where it's not as safe as the UK) you can open doors on the wrong side.

BR toyed with the folding style doors DB used on the XP64 stock, the forerunner to Mk2s. If they had gone through with it and added these features as present on European stock, many lives would have been saved.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with Central door locking, but I'm sure if I knew the German term I could shed some light on the matter.

Ah, I may be mistaken then. I don't know the stock specifics, but when I travelled on this type of stock I could have sworn the doors weren't centrally locked.

 

[Ken H]

...

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with Central door locking, ...

We had a spate of accidents where people fell out of moving trains.
Traditionally, UK train doors opened outwards (slam door stock). a door not properly closed could open as they were operated by a handle. Some trains had a handle on the inside, other trains you had to open the door window and use the outside handle.
We don't really know if the door failed in some way or the passengers who fell out had been playing with the door in some way. Not much slam door stock left - most trains now have power doors.

So they put in a separate bolt on each door, operated electrically, controlled by the guard so the door could not open while the train was moving - central door locking.
Most of these bolts were put at the top of the door a long way from the primary latch.

 

[Ken H]

Ah, I may be mistaken then. I don't know the stock specifics, but when I travelled on this type of stock I could have sworn the doors weren't centrally locked.

I think older continental carriages had some mechanism where if the carriage was going above a certain speed, the doors locked. Not centrally controlled but each coach had a self contained system. Dont know if electrical or mechanical.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

I think older continental carriages had some mechanism where if the carriage was going above a certain speed, the doors locked. Not centrally controlled but each coach had a self contained system. Dont know if electrical or mechanical.

That may be it, as I'm sure I saw someone opening the door before the train came to a complete stand. It was about 0400 though so I may have been a bit bleary-eyed!

 

[thenorthern]

Double-decker trains which are in some parts of Germany but not in the United Kingdom, the reason you will hear for this is the small loading gauge which in simple terms means the height of the bridges and tunnels being too low in the United Kingdom.

Platform height is another one as in Germany the platforms are lower than in the United Kingdom where they are built to be 91.5 CM in height.

Track access is a major one that many people forget, in the UK railways are fenced off with relatively high fences and the general rule is that you don't go on or near the track except at designated crossing points, in Europe fences tend to be lower.

There are other differences such as the side trains run on as in Germany its the right but in the UK its the left, Germany uses Kilometers but the UK uses Miles and finally the voltage is different between the two countries for electrification.

 

[Ken H]

...and finally the voltage is different between the two countries for electrification.

Germany ( and Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway) use 15kV 16.7Hz. UK uses 25kV 50Hz. Not using 25kV 50Hz must complicate feeder stations, and the lower line voltage means larger heavier transformers, but of course, changing it would be expensive and disruptive. The lower frequency allowed the use of DC traction motors with the low frequency AC. 16.666' is, of course, 1/3 of 50.

UK 3rd rail is top contact. Berlin S-bahn is bottom contact. Both use 750v DC.

 

[BR111]

Pretty much all DB stock (I doubt there's any left that doesn't) has door blocking (which disconnects the inside handle when the train reaches 5km/h until it drops below that) and an autoclose feature. On most if not all stock, I believe there has been a modification which engages the autocloser every 10-20 seconds or so when the train is moving over 5km/h which also locks the outside handle. Some regional stock has also been modified for "sided" door release, though on many trains (and this is where it's not as safe as the UK) you can open doors on the wrong side.

BR toyed with the folding style doors DB used on the XP64 stock, the forerunner to Mk2s. If they had gone through with it and added these features as present on European stock, many lives would have been saved.

Correct - every carriage has a system in place where when the carriage notices itself moving faster than 5 km/h, it is locked. This is actually linked to the "antiskid", so if that has a fault or more than one axel, you need to manually lock all the doors and depending on emergency exit ways, you might have to lock the entire carriage off for customer usage. Additionally, every single carriage still being run (and I think this might even be a complete requirement now) has *at least* TB 0 - this is a system where essentially, the doors are shut by the driver or the guard (and a guard must be on board for this procedure), where a signal is repetitively sent from the engine to the carriages that the doors should remain shut, until the driver drops this signal. However, this means that either all or no doors are unlocked. It is a very primtive but also very old system, although all carriages (not DMU/EMU's) can still do it, it is only used should the higher levelled systems (SAT and TAV, both of which a specific side can be selected) fail. As far as I'm aware, n-Wagen are the last carriages still in service that only use TB 0, and they're very rare and will become extinct shortly. The "shut signal" that is sent from the loco to the carriages is essentially just air pressure, and where the door handle actually disconnects itself from the door is only in effect above 5 km/h, which you also correctly stated.

I think older continental carriages had some mechanism where if the carriage was going above a certain speed, the doors locked. Not centrally controlled but each coach had a self contained system. Dont know if electrical or mechanical.

Mechanical until n-Wagen, from then on anything new was built with this as an electrical system.

UK 3rd rail is top contact. Berlin S-bahn is bottom contact. Both use 750v DC.

I have in fact noticed this. What is the reason for that? It just seems to be less safe if something, or someone fell or stepped on the line. How is it managed if the driver or guard need to leave the train on the line for whatever reason? What about in the event of evacuation? And is there some kind of protection in areas where the track is frequently accessed by humans, i.e. the depot?

 

[Ken H]

Correct - every carriage has a system in place where when the carriage notices itself moving faster than 5 km/h, it is locked. This is actually linked to the "antiskid", so if that has a fault or more than one axel, you need to manually lock all the doors and depending on emergency exit ways, you might have to lock the entire carriage off for customer usage. Additionally, every single carriage still being run (and I think this might even be a complete requirement now) has *at least* TB 0 - this is a system where essentially, the doors are shut by the driver or the guard (and a guard must be on board for this procedure), where a signal is repetitively sent from the engine to the carriages that the doors should remain shut, until the driver drops this signal. However, this means that either all or no doors are unlocked. It is a very primtive but also very old system, although all carriages (not DMU/EMU's) can still do it, it is only used should the higher levelled systems (SAT and TAV, both of which a specific side can be selected) fail. As far as I'm aware, n-Wagen are the last carriages still in service that only use TB 0, and they're very rare and will become extinct shortly. The "shut signal" that is sent from the loco to the carriages is essentially just air pressure, and where the door handle actually disconnects itself from the door is only in effect above 5 km/h, which you also correctly stated.



Mechanical until n-Wagen, from then on anything new was built with this as an electrical system.

I have in fact noticed this. What is the reason for that? It just seems to be less safe if something, or someone fell or stepped on the line. How is it managed if the driver or guard need to leave the train on the line for whatever reason? What about in the event of evacuation? And is there some kind of protection in areas where the track is frequently accessed by humans, i.e. the depot?

its a very old system, dating back to well before WW2. originally 660V. The shoe gear is simple, relying on gravity to keep the shoe in contact with the 3rd rail.
Converting to side or bottom contact would be very expensive and disuptive so probably wont happen. Conversion to 25Kv ac more likely. But the railways south of London were built to a tight loading gauge so overhead electrification would be expensive. New top contact 3rd rail electrification is not allowed by the railway safety people.
Most 3rd rail is south of London, except for Merseyrail. There used to be top contact 3rd rail round newcastle.
There was side contact 3rd rail Manchester- Bury but that was converted to metrolink tramway with overhead DC electrification.
people dont get electrocuted on 3rd rail by being careful. The lines have security fencing to stop trespass.
Depots dont have 3rd rail in the sheds. But they can plug the units in with a long extension lead. I think the socket on the train is called a receptacle box.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Another great thing about Germany - (apart from the fact that everything works !) , is the continuing high levels of freight , - noteably so in the Rhine Valley with a veritable feast of freight traffics on the eastern bank in particular. Train after train. In harmony with very heavy river traffic.

 

[ComUtoR]

Depots dont have 3rd rail in the sheds. But they can plug the units in with a long extension lead. I think the socket on the train is called a receptacle box.

All of our 'sheds' have 3rd rail. Maintenance depots are different and ours have the system you describe.

 

[Ken H]

All of our 'sheds' have 3rd rail. Maintenance depots are different and ours have the system you describe.

Now you have to describe to the OP* the difference between a 'shed' and a 'TMD'

* and me. I have a rough idea but....

 

[ComUtoR]

Now you have to describe to the OP* the difference between a 'shed' and a 'TMD'

I have no idea (sorta) I'm sure the more technically minded can explain; I just drive them

A Maintenance Depot is where they fix trains
A Depot/Yard/Sidings/Shed is where you store trains.

The 'Shed' is literally just a building where units are berthed etc. One of our 'depots' operates as a bit of everything. There is a Maintenance shed where they fix units and this has the trolley system you describe. This is fully controlled by the Maintenance department. There is a 'Shed' where we can berth units and has a mix of electrified roads and trolley supply. There is an up and down sidings, headshunts, and lathe roads/building.

The Rulebook dictates some of our actions.
You cannot take a train with a fault out of a Maintenance depot and take it into service.
You must stop, then sound the horn when entering a shed or a building unless otherwise authorized
Some 'sidings' you can berth a unit, some are more of a 'turnback road' and you can't because they are considered part of the 'running line'

I'm sure someone can give you a more technical answer.