Georgemas Junction: how does it work and could service provision be improved?

[Harpers Tate]

Because of the way Georgemas Junction works, the shuttle has to run Georgemas to Wick, with the main service from Inverness reversing and continuing to Thurso. I can explain more if you want.....

Done as a new thread, as it would be way off topic where the quote originates.

I, too, am interested in this - not from a 230 or shuttle perspective, but generally.

Unless I misread it, Far North services routinely arrive at Georgemas; reverse to Thurso; reverse there to Wick via Georgemas, layover at Wick and then return, via Georgemas and Thurso (reverse) to Georgemas (reverse) and then southwards. Which, on the simple face of it, is two wholly unnecessary reverses in each round trip.

I would be interested, therefore, in the reasoning.... ta!

 

[Esker-pades]

Done as a new thread, as it would be way off topic where the quote originates.

I, too, am interested in this - not from a 230 or shuttle perspective, but generally.

Unless I misread it, Far North services routinely arrive at Georgemas; reverse to Thurso; reverse there to Wick via Georgemas, layover at Wick and then return, via Georgemas and Thurso (reverse) to Georgemas (reverse) and then southwards. Which, on the simple face of it, is two wholly unnecessary reverses in each round trip.

I would be interested, therefore, in the reasoning.... ta!

You are correct in your understanding.

When the 156s did the Far North Line, all services ran as 4 cars as far as Georgemas Junction. There, 2 would go to Thurso, 2 would go to Wick.

When the 158s were brought in, there weren't enough to run 4 car services. So, trains ran as 2 cars the whole way and left us with the situation we are in. I imagine serving Thurso first is because Thurso has more passengers than Wick, and is closer to Georgemas Junction. The disruption to Wick passengers is an additional 25 minutes on the train. The distruption to Thurso passengers would be more like 40 minutes if trains went to Wick before Thurso.


My original comment was referring to a previous comment which suggested a Caithness shuttle where trains would run directly from Inverness to Wick, and a shuttle would run from Georgemas Junction to Thurso. The reason that wouldn't work is because Georgemas Junction is a single platform aligned East-West. Trains from Inverness arrive from the West, trains from Thurso arrive from the West, and trains from Wick arrive from the East. Thus, if a service ran from Inverness to Wick, the Thurso shuttle would have to wait outside the station in order to give the Wick train a clear run through. However, if the train ran from Inverness to Thurso, with the shuttle running Georgemas Junction to Wick, the shuttle could stay at one end of the platform, while the Inverness train reversed at the other end. The connection would be quicker and simpler.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Ah, so there isn't an operational/signalling reason for the present service pattern - just (what they consider to be) optimal customer focus. I see your separate point about the shuttle, etc., which would be substantially an operational matter.
Thanks!

 

[Esker-pades]

Ah, so there isn't an operational/signalling reason for the present service pattern - just (what they consider to be) optimal customer focus. I see your separate point about the shuttle, etc., which would be substantially an operational matter.
Thanks!

Not that I'm aware of. But, I am not an "inside person" so I couldn't say with 100% certainty.

 

[Richard Ingram]

Looking at Georgemas Junction on street view, is it only accessibility which prevents the second platform being used, allowing two trains in at once? It looks like it was in good condition in 2011.

 

[Esker-pades]

Looking at Georgemas Junction on street view, is it only accessibility which prevents the second platform being used, allowing two trains in at once? It looks like it was in good condition in 2011.

It has been replaced by a freight terminal since.

 

[Highlandspring]

Ah, so there isn't an operational/signalling reason for the present service pattern

Well, apart from the traincrew depot, catering base & PNB facilities being at Wick...

 

[Esker-pades]

Well, apart from the traincrew depot, catering base & PNB facilities being at Wick...

When did Wick become the Far North traincrew depot?

 

[Richard Ingram]

It has been replaced by a freight terminal since.

Ah, I see it on the Wikipedia photo, thank you.

Just spent a pleasant few minutes working out if a shuttle could work, so the Inverness train runs to Thurso and stops, while a shuttle runs Georgemas-Wick-Georgemas-Thurso-Georgemas-Wick-Georgemas connecting with the Inverness train inbound and outbound. It looks like it would work, and would give a regular Wick to Thurso service. I am sure it is not worth it to save Wick to South passengers 15-20 minutes (taking into account the change). It looks to me like the current timetable is actually better than the previous splitting setup, as that wouldn't give a service between Wick and Thurso.

Looking at the current timetable, are two sets stabled at Wick overnight? And would it be worth completing the triangle at Georgemas? I mean obviously not, but would that be cheaper than buying and running a shuttle set, and it would save Thurso and Wick passengers some time?

 

[Esker-pades]

Ah, I see it on the Wikipedia photo, thank you.

Just spent a pleasant few minutes working out if a shuttle could work, so the Inverness train runs to Thurso and stops, while a shuttle runs Georgemas-Wick-Georgemas-Thurso-Georgemas-Wick-Georgemas connecting with the Inverness train inbound and outbound. It looks like it would work, and would give a regular Wick to Thurso service. I am sure it is not worth it to save Wick to South passengers 15-20 minutes (taking into account the change). It looks to me like the current timetable is actually better than the previous splitting setup, as that wouldn't give a service between Wick and Thurso.

Looking at the current timetable, are two sets stabled at Wick overnight? And would it be worth completing the triangle at Georgemas? I mean obviously not, but would that be cheaper than buying and running a shuttle set, and it would save Thurso and Wick passengers some time?

Two sets are stabled at Wick overnight.

It would be worth completing the triangle at Georgemas Junction, but only if the original Halkirk station is re-built. That would save the 4 minutes of reversal time at Georgemas.

 

[Highlandspring]

When did Wick become the Far North traincrew depot?

There have always been Wick crews ever since there was an engine shed there. One of the current Wick drivers has been there since the 70s.

 

[Esker-pades]

There have always been Wick crews ever since there was an engine shed there. One of the current Wick drivers has been there since the 70s.

Has there ever been a depot at Thurso (or any other location on the Far North other than Wick and Inverness)?

 

[david737]

Has there ever been a depot at Thurso (or any other location on the Far North other than Wick and Inverness)?

Yes during the days of loco hauled trains there was a depot at Thurso and I think during steam days there was one at Helmsdale as well.

 

[Meerkat]

Replacing Georgemas with a new Halkirk station and completing the triangle would be the obvious rail solution.
A rail shuttle sounds enormously inefficient- if a shuttle was that crucial just hire a bus.

 

[Esker-pades]

Replacing Georgemas with a new Halkirk station and completing the triangle would be the obvious rail solution.
A rail shuttle sounds enormously inefficient- if a shuttle was that crucial just hire a bus.

My emphasis.
Um...what? That doesn't make much sense.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes during the days of loco hauled trains there was a depot at Thurso and I think during steam days there was one at Helmsdale as well.

In the loco hauled days, a Class 26 would wait at Georgemas Jcn and take a portion to Thurso and vice versa

 

[Bletchleyite]

Um...what? That doesn't make much sense.

If you built a west-north curve it wouldn't pass through Georgemas Jn station. I guess the argument would be to close it (as it doesn't serve anything per-se - Altnabreac has more useful custom!) and replace it with a station at Halkirk which is as close to a metropolis as you get up there!

 

[Esker-pades]

If you built a west-north curve it wouldn't pass through Georgemas Jn station. I guess the argument would be to close it (as it doesn't serve anything per-se - Altnabreac has more useful custom!) and replace it with a station at Halkirk which is as close to a metropolis as you get up there!

Not that, the "rail shuttle sounds enormously inefficient" part.

(As an aside, I have written quite a bit on the Far North Line here, including timetables and bits on a new Halkirk station:
https://felixunstructured.weebly.co...e-far-north-line-problems-and-ways-to-improve )

 

[Meerkat]

How much would a rail shuttle cost for four??? Trips a day?
Using up another unit and crew. Why not just run a bus instead - it could even go right to the ferry....

 

[Legolash2o]

Can't they turn it into a triangle junction at Georgemas?

That way trains can run to Thurso, reverse to Wick via Georgemas and then forward to the rest of Scotland via Georgemas?

You could have a service that goes Georgemas, Wick, Georgemas, Thurso, Scotland

 

[paddington]

Can't they turn it into a triangle junction at Georgemas?

That way trains can run to Thurso, reverse to Wick via Georgemas and then forward to the rest of Scotland via Georgemas?

You could have a service that goes Georgemas, Wick, Georgemas, Thurso, Scotland

That only helps if nobody wants to go from Thurso to Wick or vice versa. (I don't know if many people do use the train for this) Even if two trains went one way and two the other, that would still halve the service.

 

[InOban]

There are regular buses between Wick and Thurso, via Halkirk . Why would anyone wait for an occasional train?

 

[Esker-pades]

There are regular buses between Wick and Thurso, via Halkirk . Why would anyone wait for an occasional train?

The same reason people use the whole of the FNL, despite it taking longer than the road: comfort.

Can't they turn it into a triangle junction at Georgemas?

That way trains can run to Thurso, reverse to Wick via Georgemas and then forward to the rest of Scotland via Georgemas?

You could have a service that goes Georgemas, Wick, Georgemas, Thurso, Scotland

There would still need to be an hours dwell somewhere for staff breaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same reason people use the whole of the FNL, despite it taking longer than the road: comfort.

That's rather more of an issue for a 4 hour journey than a 20 minute one, though.

Building the curve would still take 10-20 minutes off the round trip, though, as even with the present Scotland-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-Scotland pattern it would remove two reversals.

 

[Esker-pades]

That's rather more of an issue for a 4 hour journey than a 20 minute one, though.

9+2+16 makes nearly 30 minutes.
For a town-town journey, comfort still has some bearing. Given the choice, I know what I would take.

(The bus takes 40-60 minutes, so that's another plus for the train.)

Building the curve would still take 10-20 minutes off the round trip, though, as even with the present Scotland-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-Scotland pattern it would remove two reversals.

Not quite how you've worked that one out. New Halkirk station plus curve would save 5 minutes and no more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not quite how you've worked that one out. New Halkirk station plus curve would save 5 minutes and no more.

The reversals appear to be timed for 4 minutes each, so assuming you close Georgemas (as it would really serve no purpose) you'd probably get about 7 minutes because you'd just need to allocate a 30 second request stop each way at Halkirk. Not as much as I thought, but not insignificant either.

Even if you didn't close it you'd get 6 (2 30-second request stop calls).

 

[Esker-pades]

The reversals appear to be timed for 4 minutes each, so assuming you close Georgemas (as it would really serve no purpose) you'd probably get about 7 minutes because you'd just need to allocate a 30 second request stop each way at Halkirk. Not as much as I thought, but not insignificant either.

Even if you didn't close it you'd get 6 (2 30-second request stop calls).

Halkirk would most likely be mandatory because Halkirk is a town. There would also have to be a dwell somewhere to pick up the Thurso token. Halkirk is the most sensible choice.

Spoiler: Timings

Scotscalder- 3 - Halkirk (1 minute dwell) - 2 - Georgemas South Junction (new) - 1 - Georgemas North Junction (new) - 9 - Thurso.

Places in italics are not stations.

That makes 16 minutes from Scotscalder to Thurso. Current timings are 21 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I was talking about on the whole south-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-south circuit - so that would give 10 minutes overall, no, because that move is done twice?

 

[Esker-pades]

Ah, I was talking about on the whole south-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-south circuit - so that would give 10 minutes overall, no, because that move is done twice?

Yes. Not sure why that is helpful because they are two separate journeys, but yes.

 

[BS56]

Why bother with a triangle instead build a new west to north curve and dispense with the west to south route the current line. Wick then is served by a new junction just north of Georgemas. Trains first go to Thurso then the junction points are set for Wick ( Rather like Battersby Yorkshire ). Wick would be now on a branch ( Rather then Thurso ) . Trains first stop at Georgemas ( Should they decide to retain it ) then straight to Wick. The return journey is done in reverse. This would both be the cheapest and easiest option.