George Osborne's Autumn Statement

[muddythefish]

Reports in the media indicate that the govt is about to embark on the biggest road-building programme for 30 years with more than £15bn earmarked for various schemes around the country.

Among them is £2bn to be spent on making the A303 dual carriageway all the way through the west country, widening the A1 north of Newcastle, making the A27 dual cariageway in the south, improvements to the A47 in Norfolk and spending money to improve access to Liverpool port.

And the Department for Roads (sorry DfT) is looking at more schemes in the next 15-20 years that will see even more roads built.

Not one extra penny has been mentioned for rail schemes, and nothing for Tavistock-Okehampton, which supporters were pinning their hopes on.

I guess when push comes to shove and an election is on the horizon the Tories will always revert to type and support their chums in the construction industry, but when more people are travelling on railways than at any time since the 1920s and the country (especially the north) is in dire need of more rolling stock, all this seems spending on roads seems grotesque.

Any thoughts?

Apologies if this subject is on another thread elsewhere.

 

[starrymarkb]

I think there needs to be a balance. The A303 gets clogged with caravans in the summer. That's not traffic you are going to get on the rails easily as the caravanners would need alternative accommodation which adds to the expense. Worst case Caravanner gets fed up of the jams and next year goes to France instead and takes their spending money with them.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Disappointing though it may be to some people, the Tavistock to Okehampton railway hardly ranks alongside any of the road schemes you list in terms of severity of problem or number of people who will benefit. Let's not forget that the railways have seen a lot of investment in recent years - and that the Tories have stood by HS2 despite strong opposition from many of their own.

 

[steamybrian]

To be fair a fair pile of cash has been given by the Government to be spent on railway improvements.
The £15bn being spent on roads roughly equals the amount on building " Crossrail" through London (give or take a few million £).
How much is "Thameslink" and the station reconstruction at London Bridge, Blackfriars, Farringdon, etc. costing the Government.
Then consider the electrification schemes such as Great Western, Liverpool-Manchester, Sheffield, etc. Add on station rebuilding schemes such as Reading.
Got to leave some spare cash for HS2
...the roads department can have the leftovers ..!!!!!!

 

[starrymarkb]

Good point. Rail has had a fair bit, but it's mostly been announced in drips and drabs rather then a big bang like this announcement

 

[physics34]

basically the north needs to replace the pacers (which looks like things are happening in that respect) and the Uckfield, Ashford and NorthDowns lines need electrifying..

Apart from that i dont see the need for big rail projects in the near future....

Tons is being spend on the thameslink core and london bridge, Crossrail and HS2.

 

[Bald Rick]

For the first time in a long while it is putting the method of Highways funding on a par with the railways, ie 5 year plans. Effectively this is the Periodic Review for the Highways Agency. And there is no doubt that some of the schemes should have been done a long, long time ago. (M25 J10 I'm looking at you).

 

[tbtc]

Not one extra penny has been mentioned for rail schemes, and nothing for Tavistock-Okehampton, which supporters were pinning their hopes on

Whilst I'd welcome any rail investment announced this week, I'd rather that investment was done on a proper basis, i.e. through the Network Rail control periods, rather than politicians dangling carrots.

As for Tavistock-Okehampton, the way that it gets hyped up amongst enthusiasts, you'd think it was a magic bullet that'd solve everything (rather than a diversionary route that'd be useful for a few days each year).

If Okehampton is really the biggest problem that needs solving then fair enough, but I can think of a lot of other issues where we could do with improvements day in day out. But never try arguing with enthusiasts eager to find any excuse to justify reopening some scenic branch line...

I guess when push comes to shove and an election is on the horizon the Tories will always revert to type and support their chums in the construction industry, but when more people are travelling on railways than at any time since the 1920s and the country (especially the north) is in dire need of more rolling stock, all this seems spending on roads seems grotesque

I've never voted Tory, but compare investment in electrification in the past four and a half years compared to the thirteen before and tell me that they are only prioritising roads?

 

[Bald Rick]

basically the north needs to replace the pacers (which looks like things are happening in that respect) and the Uckfield, Ashford and North Kent lines need electrifying..

There was me thinking it was electrified in 1926!

 

[Donny Dave]

Reports in the media indicate that the govt is about to embark on the biggest road-building programme for 30 years with more than £15bn earmarked for various schemes around the country.

Except the majority isn't being used to build new roads, but to alliviate major pinch points and bottlenecks.

Among them is £2bn to be spent on making the A303 dual carriageway all the way through the west country, widening the A1 north of Newcastle, making the A27 dual cariageway in the south, improvements to the A47 in Norfolk and spending money to improve access to Liverpool port.

I've no real knowledge about the A303 or the A27, so I'll leave comments about those to others. However, the A1 North of Newcastle does need to be a duel carriageway all the way to Dunbar, as it is 1 of only 2 major roads linking England and Scotland (the other being the A74/M74 on the other side of the country). Yes, there are other A roads, but these are generally slower.

The A47 in Norfolk (along with the A17) does desperatly need sorting out, as these are basically the only routes into the county from the North and Midlands. Where they meet at Kings Lynn is a regular source of major traffic delays, especially during the high summer season.

And the Department for Roads (sorry DfT) is looking at more schemes in the next 15-20 years that will see even more roads built.

Not one extra penny has been mentioned for rail schemes, and nothing for Tavistock-Okehampton, which supporters were pinning their hopes on.

For the first part, see my original quote at the top of this post. The majority of the money is not being used to build new roads, only where they are deperately needed.

Also, is Tavistock - Okehampton the magic solution that everyone is desperate for? It's a long, slow way round between Plymouth and Exeter, and coaches (when needed on RR services between to 2 cities) are nearly as fast using the A30.

The other possible reason for no rail related announcements (as yet) is the cost and scope for CP5 is still being sorted out. Once all this is completed, then there is scope for additional schemes to be proposed and planned.

I guess when push comes to shove and an election is on the horizon the Tories will always revert to type and support their chums in the construction industry, but when more people are travelling on railways than at any time since the 1920s and the country (especially the north) is in dire need of more rolling stock, all this seems spending on roads seems grotesque.

Yes I agree, it's a shame to award contracts to various companies that encourage job growth and retention, which at the same time helps to country recover from the financial crisis .... :roll:

Apologies if this subject is on another thread elsewhere.

It's also being partly covered in this topic

 

[Wavertreelad]

My guess is that the Chancellor will announce further investment in the rail industry in his speech on Wednesday. Announcing the road investment today included many schemes already announced on which no doubt Labour will claim plan it's line of attack, but by saving rail announcements to the actual speech allows the Government to counter the argument and let it been sent to pull a few rabbits out of the hat. Furthermore, in some interviews today I believe I heard Government Ministers talking about "road and rail investment." Watch this space seems to be the message.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The roads money is not "new", it's just been allocated to particular schemes for the next 5-year period.
The £15bn was announced in 2012 I think (same time as the £22bn HLOS for NR in CP5).
Rail has had a look in this week - £16m for Oxenholme-Windermere electrification (big deal!).
There's still a possibility of more dropping out of the hat on Wednesday, again maybe putting more detail on current schemes.
Perhaps Hull will get a mention as this is a privately sponsored scheme.
Rail has actually done exceptionally well out of this government in terms of committed enhancements.

 

[syorksdeano]

All these promises makes me think....do we have a election around the corner?

 

[physics34]

There was me thinking it was electrified in 1926!

North Downs, i mean, whoops.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All these promises makes me think....do we have a election around the corner?

And how amazing that this thread is discussing Autumn Statement matters...the day before it is announced....

 

[Abpj17]

A303 and A47 both make sense tho - roads are effective for low density populations / seasonal traffic.

 

[ainsworth74]

All these promises makes me think....do we have a election around the corner?

Indeed! After all this Government haven't spent anything at all in infrastructure or pledged to spend anything on infrastructure until just now. Absolutely nothing at all has been spent not a single penny. But as soon as the election starts to crop up the taps suddenly open after four years of nothing. Amazing!

:roll:

 

[Starmill]

It's all wibble as far as I can see. £15 billion doesn't scratch the surface of the cost of making the transport infrastructure, both Road and rail, that Britain needs. I would prefer only small things that have big benefits being sorted out on the roads and major new projects going on in Rail. As it is, there are none happening in either, save the new mostly single track unelelectrified route currently under construction through one of the most sparsely populated parts of the country...

 

[Busaholic]

Whilst I'd welcome any rail investment announced this week, I'd rather that investment was done on a proper basis, i.e. through the Network Rail control periods, rather than politicians dangling carrots.

As for Tavistock-Okehampton, the way that it gets hyped up amongst enthusiasts, you'd think it was a magic bullet that'd solve everything (rather than a diversionary route that'd be useful for a few days each year).

If Okehampton is really the biggest problem that needs solving then fair enough, but I can think of a lot of other issues where we could do with improvements day in day out. But never try arguing with enthusiasts eager to find any excuse to justify reopening some scenic branch line...



I've never voted Tory, but compare investment in electrification in the past four and a half years compared to the thirteen before and tell me that they are only prioritising roads?

I'm not a railway enthusiast and I've never availed myself of the opportunity to travel to Okehampton by rail, hence can't comment on its scenic potential, but I know enough of its history to know it was never a branch line but a main-line railway and could and WILL be so again if there is any common sense.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The lessons of Governments own report on the effects of road construction the comprehensive and well researched SACRTRA report of 1994 appear to have been forgotten. The authors could find no emperical evidence that road construction promoted economic growth and concluded that there was evidence that expanding road capacity on existing corridors whilst initially reliefing congestion had the effect of growing traffic and causing congestion on adjacent and connecting roads and the original road just filled up with traffic over time and became congested again.

 

[Clip]

I guess when push comes to shove and an election is on the horizon the Tories will always revert to type and support their chums in the construction industry, but when more people are travelling on railways than at any time since the 1920s and the country (especially the north) is in dire need of more rolling stock, all this seems spending on roads seems grotesque.

Any thoughts?.

Yes, you were doing so well until you typed out the bit Ive highlighted. You have simply failed to grasp all the projects that have been anounced in Rail over the last 15 years including some rather big projects including that tunnel right through the centre of London which is costing more than this road buiilding announcement on its own.

Not forgetting all the large RS procurements that have happened (albeit in the SE)Electrification in teh NW(probably not enough)

I simply can not remember when this amount of money has been announced in one fell swoop before to be spent on roads yet apparently because this announcement never mentioned rail then its Tories helping out theri chums!

Oh but to try and calm your silliness down then there is probably going ot be an announcement on the Barking riverside extension too - Boris was on about it again the other day.

 

[starrymarkb]

A303 and A47 both make sense tho - roads are effective for low density populations / seasonal traffic.

Exactly

I am pro rail but realise and accept it's not going to be the solution to every problem, but I'd be interested to know what people think the alternatives to the A303 upgrade could be?

And suggesting all the caravan and motorhomes switch to rail isn't going to be a good idea. Where do they stay when they reach their destination?

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair a fair pile of cash has been given by the Government to be spent on railway improvements.
The £15bn being spent on roads roughly equals the amount on building " Crossrail" through London (give or take a few million £).
How much is "Thameslink" and the station reconstruction at London Bridge, Blackfriars, Farringdon, etc. costing the Government.
Then consider the electrification schemes such as Great Western, Liverpool-Manchester, Sheffield, etc. Add on station rebuilding schemes such as Reading.
Got to leave some spare cash for HS2
...the roads department can have the leftovers ..!!!!!!

The big fear is precisely that the Government will blow the budget on HS2, leaving nothing for improvements for the regional railway - an impression not help by the recent Northern Rail consultation.

We shouldn't also forget that whilst the railway is recovering from an investment backlog dating from the end of the modernisation plan, road construction has enjoyed an investment bonanza from the late 1950's until the early 1990's.

 

[jopsuk]

Vast chunks of this money isn't new. Indeed, some of the schemes listed on the DfT website about the announcement have been completed! On ones that haven't, 10% of the total is the A14 upgrade!

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I know enough of its history to know it was never a branch line but a main-line railway and could and WILL be so again if there is any common sense.

If it was such a wonderful and useful main line, why was it closed in the first place? Could it be that most people preferred the coastal route - and still would even if the alternative re-opened?

By the way I am not saying that every main line closure was a good idea - far from it. But I am saying that re-opening Okehampton to Tavistock is a long way down the list of rail priorities - let alone overall national transport priorities.

 

[northwichcat]

Confirming a cascade of 377s to Southeastern is apparently going to feature.

 

[muddythefish]

Oh but to try and calm your silliness down then there is probably going ot be an announcement on the Barking riverside extension too - Boris was on about it again the other day.

Oh goody! Roads get £15bn nationwide while rail might get a branch line extension - and in the the south east too (no surprise there then).

Who's being silly now ?

 

[talldave]

There's shed loads of cash being spent on rail projects and now there's shed loads of cash being spent on the roads. What's the problem? It's all good for UK infrastructure. While this country is so in debt, it's amazing that anything is being spent at all. If every household wants to stump up £58k to clear that debt, perhaps we could afford to upgrade the transport infrastructure even more - but I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[Clip]

Oh goody! Roads get £15bn nationwide while rail might get a branch line extension - and in the the south east too (no surprise there then).

Who's being silly now ?

You are with your pathetic selective quoting totally missing any of the other points I made including Crossrail and Electrification of the north west.

Sensible people will understand not every budget can have improvements for both road AND rail. The silly ones will inevitably sit there and weep because they have better ideas in fantasy land to spend the taxpayers money on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder why the BBC TV trails refer to the "OTTUM" Statement.