George Osborne in first class with standard ticket?

[junglejames]

But what about the other aide? The photo shows the aide and George Osborne, but now there's possibly another one and the police officer? But the police officer was in standard..

I'm certainly confused here!

Why didn't the reporter see, or even speak to, the police officer that remained in standard? She surely had a chance to get far more information to help her story.

It came out quite early on that there was a third person who sat in standard class. Then there was the report that the 'Aide' apparently tried to pass herself off as a police officer, and people on here then saying an offence had been comitted. Along with the Guardian? article where this journalist kept referring to the person who came to look for the guard as a male, and the paper said they believed he was an officer. Well it would seem that the aide never tried to pass herself off as a police officer, and there was in fact this third person all along, who really was an officer.

 

[Oswyntail]

You are as bad as Dave. You cannot "spread privilege". If everyone has it, it's no longer privilege. Duh to the power of n.

...No he isn't. He said nothing about getting rid of it.

DC spoke about "spreading privilege". You say that, if privilege is spread it is no longer privilege. Therefore, by spreading privilege, DC is attempting to get rid of it

 

[merlodlliw]

From some of the (off-thread) postings that have been made upon this thread. it would appear that the views held and espoused by the shop steward, Fred Kite, (played by Peter Sellers), in the 1959 Boulting Brothers film "I'm all right, Jack" are still alive and well over fifty years later...:roll:

Hello Paul, I saw this film & how true, anyhow the third person now being talked about would have been the Parliamentary branch armed Police Officer assigned to the Minister, all key Minsters have the same protection from this unit.
I came into contact with similar,the Royal protection branch at Erddig, 2007 to 2011 when the Welsh National Horse Driving Trials were held in August, then HRH was present.

Bob

 

[HH]

DC spoke about "spreading privilege". You say that, if privilege is spread it is no longer privilege. Therefore, by spreading privilege, DC is attempting to get rid of it

Um, yes. I take it that you too went to Eton?

There was a piece in the Evening Standard tonight that summed it up properly. It's not about snobbery (as great as that headline is), it's about competence. The current administration has reached the state that wherever it turns it puts its expensively-soled foot in it. Normally it takes governments quite some time to reach this level of bumbling ineptitude, but these guys have managed it in double quick time. And largely unaided by the Lib Dems.

If you take your eyes away from the railway a minute and look at Westminster you'd find that even their own party is raising questions on their (Dave & George's) fitness to govern. If both old war-horses like Tebbit and Young Turks are questioning it, then there really are issues.

 

[Oswyntail]

Um, yes. I take it that you too went to Eton?

Good Welsh Grammar, and Oxford, me!

There was a piece in the Evening Standard tonight that summed it up properly. It's not about snobbery (as great as that headline is), it's about competence. The current administration has reached the state that wherever it turns it puts its expensively-soled foot in it. Normally it takes governments quite some time to reach this level of bumbling ineptitude, but these guys have managed it in double quick time. And largely unaided by the Lib Dems.

If you take your eyes away from the railway a minute and look at Westminster you'd find that even their own party is raising questions on their (Dave & George's) fitness to govern. If both old war-horses like Tebbit and Young Turks are questioning it, then there really are issues.

Actually, I dispute most of that. What I see is a load of people who oppose the coalition shouting "rubbish" very loudly, but with little substance, and no ability to back up their claims with evidence. The chief problem for the Government is that, by forming a coalition, they have also formed a most unlikely coalition against them. Of course there is the Labour Party (who are specialists in the "rubbish" style of opposition, and, at this time, can be ignored. Their main, indeed only, strategy is to call people "Toffs"). Add to them the Unions (including such worthies as the Police federation, the GMC, BMA etc) who, for various reasons have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Then there are the "LibDems against the coalition" who think that being "in power" means that a purely Libdem programme should be put through (Sorry, chaps, but being "in power" means that, for the most part you are powerless in the face of outside events, legal requirements and other factors for compromise). Finally, there are the "Rank (and file) Tories, such as your Tebbitts and Young Turks, who think that the world stopped changing in the 80's, and, because they have been selected by the local party - perhaps all 23 of them - they represent "grass roots" Conservatism. With all these voices (and add to them the media who have a massive investment in having the various parties at each others throats, so are dead set against any whiff of co-operation) baying with all the conviction of their own peculiar belief systems that the government is failing, it is small wonder that that is the general impression received. But where is the actual evidence of actual failure, or even incompetence? Not much real stuff there.

 

[HH]

Not much real stuff eh? I can understand that you don't wish to see that plebgate, the pasty tax, etc. etc. etc. are issues, despite the fact that they are indicative of real problems, but how can you ignore Double Dip, food and energy prices, HS2, Heathrow & ICWC? There are clear issues of competency however much you'd like to gloss over them. I've seen many governments come and go, but I've never seen one recover once its competency was brought into real doubt.

 

[Oswyntail]

Not much real stuff eh? I can understand that you don't wish to see that plebgate, the pasty tax, etc. etc. etc. are issues, despite the fact that they are indicative of real problems, but how can you ignore Double Dip, food and energy prices, HS2, Heathrow & ICWC? There are clear issues of competency however much you'd like to gloss over them. I've seen many governments come and go, but I've never seen one recover once its competency was brought into real doubt.

• Plebgate - nothing really happened. What "real problem"?
• Pasty tax - OK, problem in implementation of small item of tax reform. Happens with most budgets. Nothing unusual, and nota "real problem"
• Double Dip - probably more to do with international economics. What was surprising is that the UK came out of recession that early, at the end of the first dip.
• Food prices - yes, they're going up, as they always have. As an island, Britain is vulnerable, but we haven't grown enough for decades
• Energy prices - ditto. Prices not really part of government. If you mean the recent announcement - good idea, don't quite see what the fuss was about.
• HS2 - going ahead according to schedule. Opposition as expected
• Heathrow - consistent and defensible policy aintained throughout
• ICWC - as you know, this is a DfT problem, not "Government". Government had the guts to call a halt

So not really the "omnishambles" beloved of the media. Instead, in the big areas of Welfare, Health, Education there is steady, consistent progress that is being welcomed in many areas (you never hear much of that!) depite opposition. Yes, there is opposition, as you would expect, but that does not mean the Government is incompetent

Added thought about competency. In my lifetime, I can think of only three Governments that were really branded "incompetent": Callaghan, Major, Brown, each of which were really the dying embers of a previous highly successful leadership. Perhaps it was that that killed them off as much as public perceptions of incompetency. I don't think this Government is approaching the bumbling awfulness of those three.

 

[jimm]

Ah the conspiracy theory. Virgin and the Government working together to protect Mr Osborne. And very quickly too, given how quick Virgin said it was a non-event.

The journalist could easily have misheard or misunderstood the situation, based on what was said sounding like someone refusing to sit in standard. Of course, if George Osborne doesn't do standard (supporting the "Great Train Snobbery' headline) then I presume they didn't have standard tickets for the train booked, or any intention of sitting in those reserved seats. If they were to sit in standard, that sort of contradicts things a bit.

I thought from the photo it was an iPad too, which isn't a laptop. And an iPod doesn't have a DVD player in it either. But I am not sure it actually matters if they were working. Does anyone know where they'd been for the day? Had they had a break during the day? Were they on an earlier train (it hasn't been established that the change of train was missing the booked one, or being called back to London earlier) and so using the time on the train for a break? Or can politicians never take a break and relax?

It's not career suicide for the journalist as nobody can disprove what she said, even if the evidence doesn't stack up. And it wouldn't be the first time someone has got things wrong, or twisted facts, and then been unable to backtrack for fear of revealing the mistake. What's more, enough people want to believe it.

I suppose they're going to be attacked for taking any complimentary food or drink on the train too, despite having paid for first class.

There were also a lot of people in first class who clearly weren't actually supposed to be there!

I never used the word conspiracy. PRs often phone each other up and agree a line on a story where both parties are involved - it's their job! I would be astounded if there wasn't contact between people at the Treasury and Virgin on friday.

And the journalist may have heard what was said perfectly and understood it perfectly well. Clearly you don't want to believe it and are happy to try to blacken her name, although you weren't there either.

I put in the quote about the DVD in response to some of the more hysterical stuff here about how our poor politicians need the peace and quiet of first class to concentrate on their terribly demanding work and how we should give them all a first class pass to do so. Plenty of MPs seem to manage fine in standard - even George on the basis of the advance ticket that was apparently booked.

And if it's all so upsetting and compsiratorial for you, why did you start this thread by posting links to Ms Townsend's tweets in the first place?

 

[Starmill]

Look, can't we just accept that the Chancellor is a w@nker and move on? His words not mine: http://youtu.be/vkxACO_LX2Y

 

[jon0844]

And if it's all so upsetting and compsiratorial for you, why did you start this thread by posting links to Ms Townsend's tweets in the first place?

Because it was 'breaking' then and nobody knew the full story, so it may well have been George Osborne standing on the train saying 'I'm not sitting with you plebs'. In which case I'd started a thread on something that was going to be big news.

As it turned out, it wasn't.

It's not the first Twitter story that was either wrong or misleading. It certainly won't be the last.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because it was 'breaking' then and nobody knew the full story, so it may well have been George Osborne standing on the train saying 'I'm not sitting with you plebs'. In which case I'd started a thread on something that was going to be big news. As it turned out, it wasn't.

It's not the first Twitter story that was either wrong or misleading. It certainly won't be the last.

It has stirred up a real hornets nest, as the 340 postings to date have borne out.

 

[Butts]

It has stirred up a real hornets nest, as the 340 postings to date have borne out.

Unfortunately the majority of them seem to be politically motivated , keen to portray "Tory Toffs" whatever the actual facts of the matter

 

[ainsworth74]

Unfortunately the majority of them seem to be politically motivated , keen to portray "Tory Toffs" whatever the actual facts of the matter

I'm still trying to work out when going to a good school became something to beat someone over the head about?

 

[jon0844]

Some nations celebrate success, but it seems that we like to attack those who are successful.. Presumably due to envy and jealousy.

I have no doubt that anyone who attacks the rich would happily take the money tomorrow if the opportunity arose. Not from working hard, of course. We've got a new generation that think you just go on a TV show and get handed a stack of cash, or win it on the Lottery!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I find it rather amazing how many people have suddenly developed a chronic case of selective amnesia with regard to the party who were in power for a good number of years when the current British debt crisis really blossomed into the financial figure that had accrued prior to the last General Election.

 

[driver_m]

• Plebgate - nothing really happened. What "real problem"?
• Pasty tax - OK, problem in implementation of small item of tax reform. Happens with most budgets. Nothing unusual, and nota "real problem"
• Double Dip - probably more to do with international economics. What was surprising is that the UK came out of recession that early, at the end of the first dip.
• Food prices - yes, they're going up, as they always have. As an island, Britain is vulnerable, but we haven't grown enough for decades
• Energy prices - ditto. Prices not really part of government. If you mean the recent announcement - good idea, don't quite see what the fuss was about.
• HS2 - going ahead according to schedule. Opposition as expected
• Heathrow - consistent and defensible policy aintained throughout
• ICWC - as you know, this is a DfT problem, not "Government". Government had the guts to call a halt

So not really the "omnishambles" beloved of the media. Instead, in the big areas of Welfare, Health, Education there is steady, consistent progress that is being welcomed in many areas (you never hear much of that!) depite opposition. Yes, there is opposition, as you would expect, but that does not mean the Government is incompetent

Added thought about competency. In my lifetime, I can think of only three Governments that were really branded "incompetent": Callaghan, Major, Brown, each of which were really the dying embers of a previous highly successful leadership. Perhaps it was that that killed them off as much as public perceptions of incompetency. I don't think this Government is approaching the bumbling awfulness of those three.

In about 11 weeks time, I am supposedly losing most of the child benefit that I currently claim for my kids. At one point I was losing all of it, now it's most of it. The exact figure is unknown because the government want me to fill in a form that they haven't yet sent out. This form I presume is going to many families, which all have to be filled in and sent back to a department that is likely to have had staff cuts imposed by austerity measures. This is not going to run smoothly, I expect one result to all this. A shambles. An absolute stinking shambles, so much I'm selfishly hoping it gets quietly shelved.

This government IS absolutely hopeless. The only trouble is the next ones are likely to be just the same.

 

[jon0844]

When you run out of money, you cut costs and come up with a payment plan or you go bankrupt.

Maybe we should have managed our finances a bit better.

Sure, the Tories might have let the banks get away with worse, but the fact is that someone got us into this mess.

 

[RichmondCommu]

When you run out of money, you cut costs and come up with a payment plan or you go bankrupt.

Maybe we should have managed our finances a bit better.

Sure, the Tories might have let the banks get away with worse, but the fact is that someone got us into this mess.

The point is Jon, there are too many 'toffs' in the current government who think they are some how better than the people whom they serve and don't appreciate the struggle that many decent people are now facing. Yes, the country needs to make savings but don't try and tell people that "we're in it together" when we are quite clearly not!

 

[Starmill]

Obviously not.


IT'S REALLY NOT THE WORST THING HE'S DONE YOU KNOW?
Not by a long shot.


Get some perspective in here.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hardly. This is the United Kingdom, has no-one any pride left?

The railways should be obliged to provide ticketless first class travel to all MPs at all times. As an essential part of being a railway, a public service, in the first place. So that they may better represent the people.

Yes, including members of the House of Lords. And the Lords Spiritual.
This is Britain for gosh sakes, not some tin pot country.

Please tell me that you have typed this for comedy value and that you are simply being facetious.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Maybe if some of you became Prime Minister, or, Chancellor of the Exchequer, would you sit with the plebs on a train, I certainly wouldn't, the great unwashed, foul mouthed with screaming kids, noisy cellphones and iPods blaring out (c)rap music, etc, etc, I would consider myself to be in an important position within H.M. Goverment to warrant to travel in a little more comfort on an awayday out of the office, a bit of a jolly, it's not my fault that I can claim allowances back on travel expenses for doing my job, what's First Class accomodation for then if it can't be used by Front Bench members of the Government, blimey, they'll be letting plebs sit in First Class soon, where will the suits sit then, with the driver......

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, the country needs to make savings but don't try and tell people that "we're in it together" when we are quite clearly not!

Perhaps this point needed to be remembered by a certain person who appeared to have been suffering from an attack of "One nation" verbosity at a certain political event not so very many days ago.

 

[Oswyntail]

The point is Jon, there are too many 'toffs' in the current government who think they are some how better than the people whom they serve and don't appreciate the struggle that many decent people are now facing. Yes, the country needs to make savings but don't try and tell people that "we're in it together" when we are quite clearly not!

The saddest thing about the current political situation is how many have bought in to the "class war" which is the chief Opposition tactic. Your first sentence is based entirely on Labour Party spin (and shame on them). People who are wealthy (and there are many in all parties in Parliament) are as capable as any of empathy; I did not learn my approach to society at school, so why should going to Eton be any different in that respect. To judge someone because he went to a public school is as stupid as judging someone because he went to a Comprehensive. And where you get the evidence that they "think they are somehow better" I have no idea. Sure, some MPs will think that, but they will be found in any party, and contribute to the representative make-up of Parliament.
MPs, especially ministers, are generally a hard-working, well-intentioned bunch of people. Even if you disagree with what they are doing, they deserve the courtesy of reacting to what they are doing rather than that you think they are "toffs".

 

[blacknight]

That is shocking! "Man gets asked to pay large upgrade fee and decides to travel standard instead". Ranks alongside "Man decides sirloin is too expensive and chooses rump", or "Housewife buys Tesco value beans"

Alternatively could be viewed as trying to obtain goods & services by deception.
Man with standard ticket trys to enjoy perks of first class such as free teas & coffees, so if refreshments were served prior to ticket check then a service as been obtained by deception as when challenged by TTI person refuses to be excessed & returns to standard class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

• Plebgate - nothing really happened. What "real problem"?.

• 
  
  Suggest you get on your bike & cycle up to a policeman shouting "You F***ing" & then see if nothing happens.
  --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
  

  Some nations celebrate success, but it seems that we like to attack those who are successful.. Presumably due to envy and jealousy.
  
  I have no doubt that anyone who attacks the rich would happily take the money tomorrow if the opportunity arose. Not from working hard, of course. We've got a new generation that think you just go on a TV show and get handed a stack of cash, or win it on the Lottery!

  
  Could be argued that National Lottery is a modern day poor tax as those who can least afford it send a greater portion of their income on lottery chasing the dream.
  In 80's Torys thought was to transform this country from a production based industry into service based economy.
  If there are not the factories to employ people only way it would seem to make money is to appear on games shows. How many companies now employ part time staff so company benefits from NI contribution tax breaks good for share holder not so the worker trying to earn a weekly living wage.
  --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
  

  George Osborne didn't buy a Standard class ticket, his aide or another staff member would have done.hock:

  
  No wonder ruling elete are seen as out of touch if they cannot buy there own ticket-if he don't have to open his own wallet how will he know true cost of travel.
  --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
  

  George Osborne wasn't apparently involved in any conversations with VT staff regarding the upgrade so couldn't have called them anything (including plebs which seems to be the word of choice at the moment).:

  
  Unable to converse with ordinary working man only strengthens a precieved view of a class devide.

 

[Oswyntail]

....Suggest you get on your bike & cycle up to a policeman shouting "You F***ing" & then see if nothing happens....

That sounds a fun way to spend an afternoon - but nothing like any of the descriptions of "plebgate" on offer.

 

[blacknight]

Andrew Mitchell as already confessed to swaring at police officers in a public place, what ever happened to the Tory party's claim to be the party of law & order? with zero tolerance of loutish behavior.

 

[Geezertronic]

No wonder ruling elete are seen as out of touch if they cannot buy there own ticket-if he don't have to open his own wallet how will he know true cost of travel

So that includes me then, since my company buy my rail tickets when I need one? Or is it just that they have a deal with thetrainline.com and can get discounted tickets? What nonsense...

Unable to converse with ordinary working man only strengthens a precieved view of a class devide.

Nonsense again. I bet almost every company secretary would do the same for their director/senior manager whether the company was a FTSE company or a small local company. You're really trying hard but failing miserably

 

[HH]

Perhaps this point needed to be remembered by a certain person who appeared to have been suffering from an attack of "One nation" verbosity at a certain political event not so very many days ago.

That a politician in one party is an ass, doesn't mean that those in another party are not asses too.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sure, the Tories might have let the banks get away with worse, but the fact is that someone got us into this mess.

No. A lot of someones got us into this mess, and most of them are called "ordinary voters". Everyone who lives beyond their means, existing on credit cards and the 'never never' is partly responsible for where we are now. There was a great "unwritten pact" between the rulers and the ruled - keep the money flowing, whether we earnt it or no, and we'll keep voting you in.

I'm fully supportive of the plan to reduce the national deficit, even if I disagree with some of the individual decisions. However this incident, and others are not about whether the general drift of Coalition policy is right, or whether MPs work hard or not (some do, some don't), or whether ministers should travel first class (in my opinion they should), it's about how the current administration is desperate to portray themselves as "common people" when they clearly are not.

The public can smell the humbug and hypocrisy, and that's why these stories create a feeding frenzy in the media.

 

[blacknight]

So that includes me then, since my company buy my rail tickets when I need one? Or is it just that they have a deal with thetrainline.com and can get discounted tickets? What nonsense...

Except that unlike your company Treasury is responsible for setting increses in rail fares.
Perception of this government is that its in power but not in control witness the imposing a granny tax yet cutting higher rate of income tax. Trying to impose pasty tax on likes of Greggs a sucessful British company whilst letting multi nationals like Starsbucks get away with tax avoidence. Remember Cameron having pop at Jimmy Carr for doing this but sweet FA on subject of Starbucks.

 

[Geezertronic]

Except that unlike your company Treasury is responsible for setting increses in rail fares.

What that has to do with the Chancellor of the Exchequer travelling on a train to get from A to B still needs to be explained by you.