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Generator vans - pros and cons

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Townsend Hook

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There are actually a handful out there in charter and departmental use:
Mk1 BG - Riviera Trains - 6310
Mk1 BG - LSL - 6311
Mk1 BG - Network Rail - 6260
Mk1 BG - Network Rail - 6261
Mk1 BG - Network Rail - 6262
Mk1 BG - Network Rail - 6263
Mk1 BG - Network Rail - 6264
Mk1 BG - WCRC - 6312
Mk1 BG - VSOE - 6313

Mk2 - Royal Train - 2920
Mk2 - Riviera Trains - 17105

I'm sure there's a Mk1 in the (former?) Riviera fleet with a generator in too?
It’s worth mentioning that the Network Rail generator vans output a 415V AC supply, via high level jumper cables, rather than conventional ETS. There are also a number of recording vehicles which have generators fitted, including a couple which have had the recording equipment removed/mothballed so are in effect now merely generator vans. The NMT also has a total of three mess/generator vehicles, two usually in the formation plus one spare - the generators on the NMT are used to preheat the engines in the power cars in addition to powering the recording equipment.
 
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marko2

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So without using a steam-driven turbo generator, how do you get air conditioning from steam?
With an Absorption chiller. These are common enough in co-generation plants (in large buildings, particularly hospitals). They can use low-grade waste heat to drive a cooling cycle. Both steam and diesel locomotives have plenty of waste heat that would otherwise get vented to the atmosphere.
 

norbitonflyer

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Although thinking of it now it seems that the class 73 on the unelectrified portion of the Caledonian highland sleeper are de facto generator vans when those services are also hauled by class 66s in addition.
Another (fairly) recent example was the use of Class 91s with Mark 3 HST stock before the Mark 4s were ready. An HST power at the London end was needed not only to provide a driving cab but because the Class 91 couldn't provide aircon etc to the mark 3s.
The power cars didn't like running at tickover all day, so the controls were modified so they could give a bit of help to the electric loco.
 

xotGD

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One advantage of generator vans is locomotive flexibility. Stick a no-heat freight loco on the front and the heating and aircon are still chugging away.

And the cranks can travel in comfort.
 

Ken H

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Another (fairly) recent example was the use of Class 91s with Mark 3 HST stock before the Mark 4s were ready. An HST power at the London end was needed not only to provide a driving cab but because the Class 91 couldn't provide aircon etc to the mark 3s.
The power cars didn't like running at tickover all day, so the controls were modified so they could give a bit of help to the electric loco.
HSTs had DC motors. I think the motors suffered from commutator glazing if run long distances without being powered.
Anyone know what commutator glazing is?
Would an HST left idling for many hours overheat? Is that made worse by being in a fast train all day (air flow issues?)
 

Alanko

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I'm not aware of any generator vans having been recently used in GB. Other than plans for the EPS Nightstar services for the non electrified routes west of London.

I gather there is a Nightstar generator coach in Polmadie depot at the moment. It might be used to pre-heat Sleeper stock?

Slightly academic per this discussion as it doesn't move anywhere as part of a regular consist.
 

Ken H

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I gather there is a Nightstar generator coach in Polmadie depot at the moment. It might be used to pre-heat Sleeper stock?

Slightly academic per this discussion as it doesn't move anywhere as part of a regular consist.

Thats brings something back. Weren't there some ex-locos that were static carriage heaters. I think they werent capable of moving under their own power - they needed a shunting loco. Main memory I have of that is from an 1960's Ladybird book! They had a ADB number perhaps?
 

Alanko

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Thats brings something back. Weren't there some ex-locos that were static carriage heaters. I think they werent capable of moving under their own power - they needed a shunting loco. Main memory I have of that is from an 1960's Ladybird book! They had a ADB number perhaps?

Yes! And a nice source of diesels in preservation that might have been chopped a lot sooner.

https://features.rcts.org.uk/diesel-dilemmas/ets-mobile-generation-units/


The Strathspey Railway have an ex Irish Railways Cravens-built generator car in storage. I wondered for the longest time why they had a windowless Strathclyde-liveried carriage.
 
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CIE in Ireland had their first diesels without heating supply, the Crossley locos, almost 100 of them in the mid-1950s, which together with a large batch of diesel railcars pretty much dieselised the system. They built a series of steam heating vans to go with them, initially 4-wheel, later 6-wheel and then bogie, as the coaching stock was still all steam heat. This pattern continued with the 1960s General Motors locos, and into the electric train supply era which started in the 1970s; some of their heating vans could do both steam and electric supply, with boiler and diesel generator - there are photographs of trains with them mid-formation with ETH air-con stock on one side and older steam-heat stock on the other.

Later steam-heat vans (basically, I think, everything other than the 4- and 6-wheeled 30' vans) certainly had an electric generating capacity. However, as I said upthread, this was for lighting and a few auxiliaries (e.g. shaver sockets) that would be electrically powered from the lighting circuits on a normal steam-heat vehicle. Typically, the diesel generators on steam-heat vans were a single 32.25 hp unit, compared to two 234 hp ones in a Mark 2 or 3 generator van; I'm also not sure whether the voltage or connectors for the "Train Line" system (as the setup for supplying carriage lighting from a steam-heat van was known) would have been compatible with any of the electrically heated stock.

A few of the "Dutch vans" built by Dundalk Engineering from Werkspoor components were used to supply both steam-heat and ETH stock, but not at the same period of their lives. They were built as pure steam-heat vans, then rebuilt fairly soon thereafter to add the auxiliary diesel generator discussed above; three were ultimately rebuilt a second time with no boilers and a more powerful generator to supply the ex-BR Mark 2ab stock.
Incidentally, the CIE General Motors locos, although commonly termed from the USA, had a significant proportion of them built in Canada, at the GM plant in London, Ontario, which did much of the GM export loco production.
I think the 201s were the only Irish EMD locos built at London, although they do still represent a significant proportion of the total (32 out of 114 counting just CIÉ/IÉ, or 34 out of 117 if EMD locos for NIR are included). Everything else was built at La Grange (which was closed by the time the 201s were built). Historically, tariff avoidance would have been a major reason for US manufacturers building locos in Canada (or Australia) for export to other Commonwealth nations, but this didn't apply to Ireland.
 

norbitonflyer

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Thats brings something back. Weren't there some ex-locos that were static carriage heaters. I think they werent capable of moving under their own power - they needed a shunting loco. Main memory I have of that is from an 1960's Ladybird book! They had a ADB number perhaps?
Four Class 15s were used for that purpose. One of them, DB968001 (D8233) has been preserved and restored to its original appearance.
 
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Taunton

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I think the 201s were the only Irish EMD locos built at London, although they do still represent a significant proportion of the total (32 out of 114 counting just CIÉ/IÉ, or 34 out of 117 if EMD locos for NIR are included). Everything else was built at La Grange (which was closed by the time the 201s were built). Historically, tariff avoidance would have been a major reason for US manufacturers building locos in Canada (or Australia) for export to other Commonwealth nations, but this didn't apply to Ireland.
Actually a further reason for this, doubtless not applicable to Ireland either, was that the Canadian GM loco plant's exports over the years scooped quite an amount of the Canadian government's significant foreign aid budget. For other commercial export orders, it was a GM central decision which plant to use, based on available capacity, costs, exchange rates, etc, and the London plant commonly won these as well.

Regarding the CIE heating vans, were they staffed? Did they need their own attendant, did the loco fireman travel in them, or were they unattended?
 
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Speed43125

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I gather there is a Nightstar generator coach in Polmadie depot at the moment. It might be used to pre-heat Sleeper stock?

Slightly academic per this discussion as it doesn't move anywhere as part of a regular consist.
Inverness was last reported in the sleeper thread?
Polmadie presumably has shore supplies or the 92s for pre-heating.
 

ac6000cw

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It's all down to what sort of ETH supply is required. Amtrak had the same issue with their new GM F40s in the late 1970s. If the train supply was required was AC, in order to get the current at the desired frequency the alternator had to run at the rpm to do that, so for standard USA 60Hz frequency it had to run at 60x60=3,600 rpm. For Europe at 50Hz it had to run at 50x60. The alternator is geared to the engine, something like 4:1, so the main diesel didn't have to run at 3,600 rpm, but it did have to run at something like 900 rpm full speed, hence the noise. AC voltage is by-the-by, it can be transformed as required, the key thing is frequency. Incidentally, the rise and fall in tone of the loco when standing is more noise from the air compressor and radiator fans than from the diesel engine itself, which maintains its rpm well.

Amtrak eventually fixed it by installing auxiliary small diesels in the F40 loco carbody, specifically to provide ETH, so the main diesel just idles when stationary. They seemed to have better luck with these than what the Scottish Region did with the Class 27x2 push-pull on Glasgow-Edinburgh in the 1970s, when they installed auxiliary Deutz diesels for this, which brought a whole range of unanticipated problems.
I don't think any Amtrak F40s ever had a separate diesel genset for HEP?

There are/were various 'HEP genset fitted' derivatives of the F40 built or rebuilt by their owners & other suppliers (not EMD), plus VIA Rail's recent rebuilds of their F40s squeezed in an HEP genset. EMD went down the 'HEP genset' route for the later F59s, some of which Amtrak operated on behalf of various state agencies. Amtrak's GE P32BWH, P40 and P42 locos also derive HEP from an alternator driven by the main engine, but don't need to run it at as high an RPM just to provide HEP - so it's less noticeable than a wailing 900rpm EMD V16 645 in a Metra F40... (there's a sizeable F40 fleet still in use with Metra, if you want the full F40 experience!).
 

JohnMcL7

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The generator van was definitely still in Inverness at the start of the month but I haven't checked more recently.
 
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Regarding the CIE heating vans, were they staffed? Did they need their own attendant, did the loco fireman travel in them, or were they unattended?
I think CIÉ heating vans (steam and electric) were always unattended apart from the guard - I've never read any reference to their routinely carrying any other staff member, with one relatively short-lived exception. On the AEC push-pull driving trailers - which were built as DMU cars with steam boilers to heat both the car itself and any steam-heated intermediate vehicles, which were retained and supplemented by a generator set for lighting when they were converted to push-pull - the fact that the generator blocked one of the doors meant that the guard had to travel in another vehicle, so the boiler/generator compartment was normally completely unattended. However, several of the vehicles were destroyed by fires originating in the compartment, and for a while a "spare man" would travel in it to protect against this.

I believe the BR steam-heat vans that ran on the WCML in the early days of electrification carried a fireman. I don't know why BR considered this necessary and CIÉ didn't (possibly an industrial relations issue?).
 

Taunton

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I believe the BR steam-heat vans that ran on the WCML in the early days of electrification carried a fireman. I don't know why BR considered this necessary and CIÉ didn't (possibly an industrial relations issue?).
I was going to mention these. At the very start of the WCML electrification in 1960, which began with just Manchester to Crewe, there was a desire to have everything electric-hauled, even over this initial short distance, and despite the best efforts of corralling all the Mk1 stock built in the previous couple of years as dual heat onto the division, which of course upset those other areas that lost their newest stock, there were still trains needing to be steam heated in winter (nobody cared about summer then).

A few ex-LMS bogie brakes were thus fitted with steam boilers, and the new electric locos could be seen manoeuvring them onto the front of various services, generally those still made up of pre-nationalisation stock. It was only 12 years then since nationalisation, and less since stock to their designs ceased to be built.
 

ExRes

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I'm out the loop! Looks like it has been repainted and had the Channel Tunnel polo mint removed.

96371 moved to Scotland in December painted to match the sleeper stock it is operating with, 96374 is in Inter City livery and operates at Great Yarmouth, Eastern Rail Services also own 372/373/375
 

181

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Afraid no connection. The US did not go for generator cars, there might have been a few but I don't recall, and for much longer had steam-powered coach supplies, both summer and winter, with steam-powered air conditioning, which came from the steam locomotive era and which they actually made a notable long term success of. When Amtrak was formed in 1971 pretty much all their stock was still steam-supplied, and the first new Amtrak diesels still had steam generators, always supplied from a steam boiler in the locomotive which the fireman had to attend to. It wasn't until the mid-1970s that they started to have electric supply, generally from a separate small diesel generator within the locomotive after abortive early attempts with tapping the main engine, plus buying new ETH coaches and converting the existing ones. Even the new mid-1970s E60 electric locos for New York to Washington initially came with oil-fuelled steam boilers.

There were a few steam heater cars, but they were only used in deep winter on lines over the bitter mountains of the North West in sub-zero temperatures, at the rear, when the steam supply from the locomotive cooled too much along the long train, so it was supplied half each from loco at the front and heater car at the rear.
I think steam generator vans were used quite a lot in Canada -- on my travels on Via Rail in May 1990, they seemed to be the norm outside the Quebec-Windsor corridor. This video (not mine) indicates that they were used within the corridor as well.
 

fgwrich

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Why did they repaint 96374 in a defunct livery it never wore 'the first time'?
Why not? It’s owned by Eastern Rail Services and carries a version of Intercity Mainline (to match their other stock there) with their name painted similarly to match.
 
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