General PF Questions

[trivran]

Couple questions related to Penalty Fares that I'd like answered if possible please:

1. Does the 50% child discount apply to Penalty Fares?

2. Can a Penalty Fare be issued from a station further from where the passenger claims to have travelled from if, for instance, it is believed they are lying?

I probably should've checked your Fares Guide actually..I'll do that now.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Couple questions related to Penalty Fares that I'd like answered if possible please:

1. Does the 50% child discount apply to Penalty Fares?

2. Can a Penalty Fare be issued from a station further from where the passenger claims to have travelled from if, for instance, it is believed they are lying?

I probably should've checked your Fares Guide actually..I'll do that now.

1. No, the Penalty Fare is £20 or double the full single fare for the Journey made, there are no discounts on this.

However Penalty fares are not normally issued to Under 16's, usually it would be an UPFN most likely sent to their parents when the address of the person in question is verified. This is for the price of the ticket for the Journey, it is not a Penalty, the worst that can be charged is the Anytime fare for the Journey if the passenger boarded without a ticket from a station where ticket issuing facilities were present and working.

2. Normally a PF is issued for the "Journey undertaken", I have never heard of any inspector trying to issue one from a station different to where the passenger claims to have started their Journey. If the Inspector does not believe the passenger they will go down the MG11 route of a Byelaw or Regulation of Railways act (if they have enough evidence) prosecution.

 

[RPI]

1. No, the Penalty Fare is £20 or double the full single fare for the Journey made, there are no discounts on this.

However Penalty fares are not normally issued to Under 16's,.

Obviously different by TOC then, we certainly issue PF's to under 16's as with any adult, we draw an unofficial line at about the age of 14 but there is nothing to stop a PF being issued to anyone, obviously the parents name is noted in the relevant section of the PF notice.

 

[island]

Given that a PF can be issued for double a TOC-restricted fare (have seen one for FCC ONLY Peterborough to London Terminals), why couldn't one be issued for double the child fare if that were over £20?

 

[trivran]

Well I have been issued a discounted one (hence the question) but given this:

there are no discounts on this.

I'll put that down to the RPI being nice about it.

Thanks for the answers, too.

 

[Harlesden]

Can children be legally given a Penalty Fare?
Do railway byelaws override the law of the land?
The purchase of a ticket for travel constitutes a contract between the service provider and the service recipient. A person boarding a train is acknowledging the existence of such a contract whether he has a ticket or not.
However, a person under the age of 18 is considered legally exempt from being a party to a legal contract and, if sued for breach of contract, can use this as a valid defence in a court of law.
QUOTE The law assumes that a minor cannot understand the implications of a contract. So, whatever caveat is drafted into the contract, a minor will remain protected to the disadvantage of the other party.
Further, a contract with a minor is voidable. That means the minor is able to cancel any contract at any time before reaching the age of 18 and for a reasonable period after that time. There is no requirement for the minor to have a justifiable reason for this, it can be done on a whim or where it may be advantageous to the child to do so.
One would assume that no penalty can legally be levied against a person under the age of 18 for travel or attempted travel without a ticket.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Sometimes the worst punishment for the Under 18's can be to take down Oyster card details if they have a ZIP Oyster and then reporting abuse of it to TFL, sometimes this can lead to suspension of the free bus and tram travel that most under 18's get using this card. I believe RPI's are not allowed to confiscate the card from its owner, although they can certainly report breaches of its terms of use!

 

[Monty]

12 I think is the youngest age a person can be issued with a Penalty Fare Notice, at SWT I have been encouraged in the past by management not to issue PFNs to under 16s and rather we issued Unpaid Fares Notices instead. If this policy is still in place I do not know, but I do know that other TOCs will issue PFNs to under 16s FGW being an example (or they were when I was still in revenue, as always detailed are subject to change!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sometimes the worst punishment for the Under 18's can be to take down Oyster card details if they have a ZIP Oyster and then reporting abuse of it to TFL, sometimes this can lead to suspension of the free bus and tram travel that most under 18's get using this card. I believe RPI's are not allowed to confiscate the card from its owner, although they can certainly report breaches of its terms of use!

RPIs can withdraw Oyster cards, though once again SWT's policy was not withdraw one that had any pay as you go credit loaded on to it.

 

[island]

Can children be legally given a Penalty Fare?
Do railway byelaws override the law of the land?
The purchase of a ticket for travel constitutes a contract between the service provider and the service recipient. A person boarding a train is acknowledging the existence of such a contract whether he has a ticket or not.
However, a person under the age of 18 is considered legally exempt from being a party to a legal contract and, if sued for breach of contract, can use this as a valid defence in a court of law.
QUOTE The law assumes that a minor cannot understand the implications of a contract. So, whatever caveat is drafted into the contract, a minor will remain protected to the disadvantage of the other party.
Further, a contract with a minor is voidable. That means the minor is able to cancel any contract at any time before reaching the age of 18 and for a reasonable period after that time. There is no requirement for the minor to have a justifiable reason for this, it can be done on a whim or where it may be advantageous to the child to do so.
One would assume that no penalty can legally be levied against a person under the age of 18 for travel or attempted travel without a ticket.

Probably not a safe assumption. There are two lines of attack against this. One is that contracts are enforceable as against a minor if they are for the purchase of necessaries. What is necessary is a question of fact and there is various case law (such as a minor buying waistcoats on credit who was already well furnished with clothing; he was not required to pay). A second is the age of criminal responsibility, which in England and Wales is 10. A child can, at least in theory, be prosecuted for byelaw offences or RoRA offences at that age. The law of contract does not, as has been made clear several times here, affect criminal liability.

Contract law might affect the enforceability of a UPFN or PF in civil proceedings, but that is all, I think.

The above is suffixed with the fact that I am not a lawyer and it is merely my reading, understanding, and opinion of matters of which I have knowledge.

 

[Draconian]

Well I have been issued a discounted one (hence the question) but given this:

I'll put that down to the RPI being nice about it.

Thanks for the answers, too.

Very lucky...RPI being unprofessional or incompetent.

 

[RPI]

Very lucky...RPI being unprofessional or incompetent.

That sounds more like it.

 

[Qwerty133]

Very lucky...RPI being unprofessional or incompetent.

If its a certain stagecoach toc who's RPIs don't seem to know the routing guide exists I'd know which I'd go for.

 

[jkdd77]

Well I have been issued a discounted one (hence the question) but given this:

I'll put that down to the RPI being nice about it.

Thanks for the answers, too.

If the PF Regulations required a PF of (say) £20, and one was issued for £10, then it appears that the "amount stated and charged" is not as per the strict requirements of the PF Regulations and Rules, such that a well-worded appeal by the OP's parents might well succeed.

I believe that one passenger travelling without a ticket was incorrectly charged a PF for the whole of their intended single journey, rather than "merely" a PF to the next stop (plus Anytime Single for the remainder of the journey if staying on the same train), and won an appeal on that basis ("incorrect amount charged").

 

[RPI]

I believe that one passenger travelling without a ticket was incorrectly charged a PF for the whole of their intended single journey, rather than "merely" a PF to the next stop (plus Anytime Single for the remainder of the journey if staying on the same train), and won an appeal on that basis ("incorrect amount charged").

source please? The PF notices state on them ".......you are required to pay - PENALTY - £20 Or twice the appropriate full single fare, whichever is the greater £______ From________ To_________ (Next or other station stop" so I fail to see that being the case, also, if you appeal you will not be told on what grounds your appeal has been successful, just that it has been successful.