GEML franchise 2016

[Haydn1971]

The graphic on Railway Gazette suggests a different supplier for the three car units, "Stadler AG" rather than "Stadler" - typo or actually a different type of unit ?

 

[northwichcat]

The graphic on Railway Gazette suggests a different supplier for the three car units, "Stadler AG" rather than "Stadler" - typo or actually a different type of unit ?

AG is just the letters indicating Stadler are a limited company just like Ltd or PLC after a British company name.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Oh well if they decide not to travel then it means you have a greater choice of where you sit on the train. Surely good news for you - unless when you say 'Norwich passengers' you're actually referring to yourself.

No, I know perfectly well what Norwich passengers are like because I happened to know someone who worked on the GEML who had to put up with their complaints about underfloor engines, and ones who refereed to get on anything that did not have tables or a proper buffet because that is just the way they were.

Go ask someone who worked on that line when EMU's were operating to Norwich for a while in the past when MK3 availability was at an all time low - it was not a pleasant place to work and the natives were very restless, majority of which would rather wait half an hour for the next train than get on a 3xx EMU which then they can't all get on as a result which causes more mayhem.

 

[TheEdge]

Did you read my post? I'm all far withdrawing the 153/156 fleet, cascading 170s to those services and then ordering new built units to fill in for the remainder. Nobody is saying the rural fleet does not need investment, but I'm sorry but if you really are saying the 170s are too old that is a ridicolous statement and there are plenty of other TOCs who would love to have such a problem with far far older fleets.

So we then (going on the Gazette numbers) a small non standard fleet of 12 170s and then 46 different FLIRTs. Why bother with all the added costs and limitations of running such a small fleet of easily re-homeable DMUs when you can order another 12 FLIRTs and have a uniform fleet? I never said anything about the 170s being too old.

The graphic on Railway Gazette suggests a different supplier for the three car units, "Stadler AG" rather than "Stadler" - typo or actually a different type of unit ?

Probably a typo. I think AG is similar to what in the UK would be Ltd.

 

[ainsworth74]

No, I know perfectly well what Norwich passengers are like because I happened to know someone who worked on the GEML who had to put up with their complaints about underfloor engines, and ones who refereed to get on anything that did not have tables or a proper buffet because that is just the way they were.

Well there aren't going to be underfloor engines on the London - Norwich runs to worry about as it's wired and how do you know there won't be tables or a proper buffet seeing as we don't have any information on the interior specification yet?

 

[TheEdge]

No, I know perfectly well what Norwich passengers are like because I happened to know someone who worked on the GEML who had to put up with their complaints about underfloor engines, and ones who refereed to get on anything that did not have tables or a proper buffet because that is just the way they were.

Go ask someone who worked on that line when EMU's were operating to Norwich for a while in the past when MK3 availability was at an all time low - it was not a pleasant place to work and the natives were very restless, majority of which would rather wait half an hour for the next train than get on a 3xx EMU which then they can't all get on as a result which causes more mayhem.

Well I work day in day out with the Norwich passengers...

Correct, many today will avoid a 321 in place of a Mk3 set, given a Mk3 is normally only a 30m wait away and currently the Mk3s are better appointed. Given the Intercity FLIRTs will most likely be appointed just as well as Mk3 sets there is unlikely going to be open revolt over the matter.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I totally support clearing out the 153/156/317/321 fleets. No complaints there Abellio have my full support in changing one of the oldest fleets in the country, remove all the old stock and replace it with good quality new stock.

The problem is that they decided they'd replace all the almost new and young stock at the same time which doesn't need replacing and have gone for quantity of rolling stock over quality and replacing stock that was perfectly good.

The stock that doesn't need replacing isn't going for scrap. Those units will easily find themselves a home somewhere on the network where they'll fit in with existing fleets of similar units. Having larger, consistent fleets is more efficient than having lots of different units ordered at different times.

From the photos it looks like the Stadler units use the same overall layout as their EC250 design which will be used for high speed passenger services through the Gotthard Base Tunnel. It looks like there will be a double door per articulated carriage, which would average out over the entire length of the train as being equivalent to an end-doored 23m carriage. It looks like these would be little more than the closest articulated equivalents to an AC 444 or, for the bi-mode sets, a modern 158. On this forum the concepts of an AC 444 or a bi-mode 158 seem to be perceived as the holy grail of modern train design, so I don't think there's much reason to be annoyed.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So we then (going on the Gazette numbers) a small non standard fleet of 12 170s and then 46 different FLIRTs. Why bother with all the added costs and limitations of running such a small fleet of easily re-homeable DMUs when you can order another 12 FLIRTs and have a uniform fleet?

Why bother providing five star new rolling stock to the majority of passengers and provide perfectly fine four star modern stock to the rest when you can buy new four star rolling stock for everyone and get brownie points for replacing everything that looks shiny and new. Because shiny and new is the most important thing at the end of the day isn't it.

The only good thing is it will save them money actually having to bother to repaint everything now, which considering the GEML record on repainting, probably will be a huge relief to everyone.

 

[Haydn1971]

AG is just the letters indicating Stadler are a limited company just like Ltd or PLC after a British company name.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but why put it on just one of the four Stadler references.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but why put it on just one of the four Stadler references.

They could be assembling some stock at the old Vossloh Espana works, I suppose, but I think it's just sloppy formatting and copy/pasting.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well there aren't going to be underfloor engines on the London - Norwich runs to worry about as it's wired and how do you know there won't be tables or a proper buffet seeing as we don't have any information on the interior specification yet?

Many of them just have a pure hatred of EMU's, they even complained about the 444s that were proposed many years ago, the negativity in the local press was overwhelming in it's nature.

Unless these Intercity trains provide a proper buffet with proper catering (not a shop) with proper tables, proper first class and proper ambiance with end doors not 1/3 doors and proper noise isolation between the carriages, they are going to be restless.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Many of them just have a pure hatred of EMU's, they even complained about the 444s that were proposed many years ago, the negativity in the local press was overwhelming in it's nature.

Unless these Intercity trains provide a proper buffet with proper catering (not a shop) with proper tables, proper first class and proper ambiance with end doors not 1/3 doors and proper noise isolation between the carriages, they are going to be restless.

You'll just have to wait and see - why get yourself into such a state of irritation and upset before you've seen what Stadler will supply, and what Abellio have asked them to supply. They produce some absolutely incredible stock for SBB, stuff which knocks a Mark 3 into a cocked hat.

 

[ainsworth74]

For discussion on what might happen to the rolling stock cascaded away from the East Anglia franchise please see this thread. Let's focus on the changes to the franchise itself on this thread. I've moved a few posts over there so if you posted here about cascades they should be over there now. Many thanks

 

[TheEdge]

Why bother providing five star new rolling stock to the majority of passengers and provide perfectly fine four star modern stock to the rest when you can buy new four star rolling stock for everyone and get brownie points for replacing everything that looks shiny and new. Because shiny and new is the most important thing at the end of the day isn't it.

The only good thing is it will save them money actually having to bother to repaint everything now, which considering the GEML record on repainting, probably will be a huge relief to everyone.

So, as per usual the rural routes can go suck it as second class to everyone else? You throwing around about the majority of passengers is a bit of a moot point. The majority of AGA/AEA passengers travel on services currently provided by 317, 321 and 360 so the majority of passengers will be travelling on Aventra units. The FLIRTs are only really for Norfolk and Suffolk.

 

[jon0844]

You'll just have to wait and see - why get yourself into such a state of irritation and upset before you've seen what Stadler will supply, and what Abellio have asked them to supply. They produce some absolutely incredible stock for SBB, stuff which knocks a Mark 3 into a cocked hat.

I sense a common theme that was present here a year or two ago from other members. Namely a hatred of Abellio, meaning absolutely nothing could have ever satisfied some people.

It's not as if the current trains are all going to scrap either, so where is the wasted money or the trains sat around rusting for four years?

Having common fleets makes sense and, yes, there must be cost savings whenever possible. Can you imagine if we still had British Rail? How much would we be spending then?

 

[samuelmorris]

Honestly, I think the idea of even long-haul 'style' trains for routes the length & duration of Norwich services is a bit old-fashioned. Never mind the concept of 'EMUs replacing Locos won't be accepted by the passengers' - it's of zero importance to a passenger what the motive power is, if the interior is identical - the difference is only because EMUs are predominantly specified with lower-grade interiors. Let's not forget that Pendolinos are EMUs, are they similarly unacceptable?

I spent 40 odd minutes on a 387/2 the other day and frankly, I could have sat there for hours. Perhaps the infamous seat could have been slightly more padded, but really that's it. I have my seatback table, my power socket for a laptop, I'm comfortably spaced from the passenger next to me, it's a well air-conditioned interior and it's still reasonably quiet. I could certainly be quite content on a 387/2 for 100 minutes to Norwich. So what's the issue? Frankly I half-expected the 90s to be replaced by standard commuter EMUs. That they've differentiated the fleet with units of a different specification to the commuter units tells me that they are technically making more of a commitment than is necessary, as much as it's going to be perceived as the worst thing ever for commuters.

I agree that replacement of the 379s is wasteful, but I can understand the rest for fleet commonality reasons. The 170s may not be as old and decrepit as the Sprinters and 317/321s but they are a small fleet that is arguably better off bolstering other operators and replacing all the DMUs with a common set. Likewise the 360s are still a relatively small fleet with totally different maintenance requirements to the rest of the system. I can only assume there's a known intention of where the 379s will end up to justify them being cascaded.

Frankly I was initially disheartened to see Abellio had won the contract but seeing this commitment of investment I'll watch carefully - I think people are right to be sceptical about the possibility of the trains being the 'cheapest available option' and them not living up to their franchise promises, but I can't help thinking some of their previous faults may have been due to the restrictive 2-year franchise. Will be an interesting 4 years to come that's for sure.

 

[TheEdge]

I sense a common theme that was present here a year or two ago from other members. Namely a hatred of Abellio, meaning absolutely nothing could have ever satisfied some people.

Quite, I am impressed people are managing to attack Abellio for one of the biggest new rolling stock orders for a long time...

 

[grumblingalong]

No, I know perfectly well what Norwich passengers are like because I happened to know someone who worked on the GEML

You happened to know someone who worked on? This will sound bad, but you have at least 3 staff members who work on the GEML today (myself literally) on this topic with you so you may wish to take our points a little more seriously.

Yes Norwich passengers will avoid 321s, as do manning tree and Colchester pax, a good quality unit will not turn them away.

I can't help but feel that you're doing some toy throwing because First didn't win.

 

[jon0844]

Quite, I am impressed people are managing to attack Abellio for one of the biggest new rolling stock orders for a long time...

I think the BBC said it was the biggest. Quite hilarious to be reading what I've read on here today.

I muted so many anti-AGA 'activists' that I can't unfortunately see what they're saying. But I can imagine.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So, as per usual the rural routes can go suck it as second class to everyone else?

I still can't get over the fact you are calling Class 170/360/379 trains second class and seem to be suggesting they are old! They are not, they are modern units!

 

[BuryBlue]

I sense a common theme that was present here a year or two ago from other members. Namely a hatred of Abellio, meaning absolutely nothing could have ever satisfied some people.

It's not as if the current trains are all going to scrap either, so where is the wasted money or the trains sat around rusting for four years?

Having common fleets makes sense and, yes, there must be cost savings whenever possible. Can you imagine if we still had British Rail? How much would we be spending then?

They shouldn't be. They've done exceptionally well with the fleet and short franchises they've had.

 

[jon0844]

They shouldn't be. They've done exceptionally well with the fleet and short franchises they've had.

I think so from my regular WA travels. New platform screens, decent refreshed trains, a smartcard system I haven't actually used yet, good cleaning of trains (and regular refilling of water on 317s) and staff that seem to like their jobs and have a smile.

Most important of all is they did what they said they'd do.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You happened to know someone who worked on? This will sound bad, but you have at least 3 staff members who work on the GEML today (myself literally) on this topic with you so you may wish to take our points a little more seriously.

My experience is that generally TOCS are not always in tune what the passengers want. This is the case in many operators in public transport, not just rail, if that wasn't the case there would not be need for rail users groups to give their own opinions and views on things.

I remember on these forums ages ago, or maybe it was another forum and people were singing to high heaven how great NXEA would be, they would refurb the MK3's to a great standard, the service would be much better than what came before them, stock would be refurbished to a good standard, they'd reduce overcrowding and running 2 car turbostars from Peterborough and Lowestoft to London would not cause capacity problems. Didn't work like that in reality though.

Yes Norwich passengers will avoid 321s, as do manning tree and Colchester pax, a good quality unit will not turn them away.

I can't help but feel that you're doing some toy throwing because First didn't win.

I don't care who won, what I care about is what is being delivered on the ground and regardless of who put this bid in, I would have always had the same criticism, the only real preference I had for this bid that National Express did not get it, other than that for me it all depended on what was being proposed.

 

[LAX54]

No one has asked how they propose to bring in the Norwich in 90 and Ipswich in 60......one assumes it will be an 0400ish dep from Norwich, first stop Liverpool Street ?

 

[TheEdge]

I still can't get over the fact you are calling Class 170/360/379 trains second class and seem to be suggesting they are old! They are not, they are modern units!

When did I ever say or even imply they are old? :roll:

They are not, I like 170s, one quite literally probably saved my life. I can just see the value in a uniform fleet...

 

[F Great Eastern]

They shouldn't be. They've done exceptionally well with the fleet and short franchises they've had.

I agree - they have done vastly better than the absloute shower that cam before them, a company who invested **** all in everything over the whole franchise didn't even bother to properly clean stations and fix things which laid broken for a long time and the state of some of the trains was a disgrace and Abellio are like haven compared to NX who set this region back years.

However it doesn't mean they are immune from being criticized or they can walk on water and do no wrong.

 

[grumblingalong]

I remember on these forums ages ago, or maybe it was another forum and people were singing to high heaven how great NXEA would be, they would refurb the MK3's to a great standard, the service would be much better than what came before them, stock would be refurbished to a good standard, they'd reduce overcrowding and running 2 car turbostars from Peterborough and Lowestoft to London would not cause capacity problems. Didn't work like that in reality though.

This is a completely different situation though, completely. I think to be honest you've just jumped on Abellio, you've attacked the units they've chosen before any of us have seen anything like a specification, you've completely overlooked the investment being made.

I'm going to to leave it here because I don't feel this is contributing anything to the discussion but please, cheer up and see the many potential positives here!

 

[F Great Eastern]

When did I ever say or even imply they are old? :roll:

They are not, I like 170s, one quite literally probably saved my life. I can just see the value in a uniform fleet...

You suggested they were second rate, when they are far from it, they are perfectly serviceable trains as are the 360 and the 379 fleet in my book and they are suited to the work that they do.

I see the value in a uniform fleet too, but if push comes to shove and you can have an A grade Intercity train and a mostly uniform fleet with a few modern but not new trains as well, why you wouldn't go for that.

Where does this stop? Every single franchise can argue the same thing, we want uniform fleets, lets replace absolutely everything, just because we can? That is the attitude that seems to be on display here, why bother cascading trains along routes within a company at all, every time we need something new lets go out and order it? I'm sure the ROSCOS will be delighted.

Can you imagine the state things will be in if we do this on every single franchise? They could argue the very same reasons, we want new trains, lets go order another 1000 carriages, we want a uniform fleet, yes, I know that we have 200 carriages we ordered and had delivered 4 years ago, but they're second rate now, we want new and we want them now.

I read the cascade thread and it's pretty obvious already we have problems where a lot of units that are only around half way through their lifespan are now not going to find a home because of the crazy amount of new units that are coming in. All it's gonna mean is ROSCOS are gonna realise that they are going to get less than a full life out of perfectly good trains and they put their rates up = higher ticket prices.

Just so TOC's can have a bunch of shiny new toys in new paint they don't actually need. Considering the ridicolous restrictions that were placed on TOC's in the past, we've now come to a lubricious situation where the DFT is on one hand stopping people ordering relevant capacity for overcrowded services in recent years and to replace very very old stock, but is perfectly happy to sanction replacements for stock that is 5 years old.

 

[TheEdge]

You suggested they were second rate, when they are far from it, they are perfectly serviceable trains as are the 360 and the 379 fleet in my book and they are suited to the work that they do.

You what? I think they are the best of our units and one in good fettle is my favourite unit to work. So kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is a completely different situation though, completely. I think to be honest you've just jumped on Abellio, you've attacked the units they've chosen before any of us have seen anything like a specification, you've completely overlooked the investment being made.

I'm going to to leave it here because I don't feel this is contributing anything to the discussion but please, cheer up and see the many potential positives here!

I slammed NXEA from day one and said that the franchise would be a nightmare from the outset and I got absolutely slaughtered for it, called deluded and everything else, but at the end of the day I was not far wrong, it was an invest nothing and take everything franchise.

I am delighted that most of the units are being ordered, replacements for the 153/156/317/321 fleet were overdue and the replacements for these services are excellent and very welcome and I am happy to praise Abellio to the hil for this, it's what the franchise are crying out for for MANY years but the decision to award NXEA the franchise set us all back MANY years with their invest nothing franchise.

I just disagree about the type of units ordered to replace the MK3 and believe that the 379s especially should have been retained and the 360s and 170s should have been as well and the extra cash used for ordering a top level intercity train rather than them going for the cheap options.

The big problem with all this stock coming at once is going to be it's all going to need replacing in the future as well aroud the same time and I'd believe that it's better to have a mixture of age profiles so you can do it in a bit by bit process. But instead we're kicking that can further down the road.