GEML franchise 2016

[grumblingalong]

Sorry, not spot on at all. They were 3 cars throughout. Passenger loadings south of Ipswich were ridiculous on some services. Fortunately the Olympics were the catalyst for their withdrawal.

That is interesting, as I said they were before my time but every time I've spoken to colleagues about them they referred to the, being joined, certainly up road. Were they then run separately down road?

 

[306024]

To run a two hourly service from Liverpool St to Lowestoft and to Peterborough required 7 diagrams from a fleet of 8 x 3 car 170s. They were xx.38 from Liverpool St on the down road, xx.30 from Ipswich on the up road.

From memory there used to be one 6 car working on the up road in the morning which was a Norwich job, which may be what your colleagues refer to, but that was all. The general pattern was 3 cars throughout.

 

[43074]

That is interesting, as I said they were before my time but every time I've spoken to colleagues about them they referred to the, being joined, certainly up road. Were they then run separately down road?

I believe there was one service per day from Great Yarmouth (via Norwich) & Lowestoft (via the East Suffolk) to Liverpool Street which joined at Ipswich but that was the exception rather than the rule. The off peak services were always single 3-car 170s.

 

[306024]

Yep that was the one. Used to split in Liverpool St on arrival to form the 09.38 to Lowestoft and 10.38 to Peterborough.

 

[swt_passenger]

When the franchise is awarded, is there immediate specification of new services? The DfT spec demanded at least 180 new services, will where they go be revealed immediately?

The 'specification of new services' was already shown in detail in something called train service requirement 2, (TSR2), available on the DfT website:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/east-anglia-franchise-2015-invitation-to-tender

But TSR2 only commences at May 2019 timetable change. Something like the status quo will operate for the first period of the franchise, TSR1.

It is unheard of for there to be significant immediate changes on first day of a new franchisee, as new/extra rolling stock, additional train crew, and sometimes additional infrastructure all have such significant lead times.

Also, don't forget that when DfT typically spin these announcements, that '180 new services' counts each 'service' in two separate directions, and separates out different days. The obvious detail from the Stakeholder briefing is that it is 90 Mon - Sat, and a separate 90 on Sundays.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/481392/east-anglia-stakeholder-briefing.pdf

So it already looks like much less than the headline figure. Then some 'new services' may be increased frequencies, or just relatively short extensions.

 

[BuryBlue]

The 'specification of new services' was already shown in detail in something called train service requirement 2, (TSR2), available on the DfT website:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/east-anglia-franchise-2015-invitation-to-tender

But TSR2 only commences at May 2019 timetable change. Something like the status quo will operate for the first period of the franchise, TSR1.

It is unheard of for there to be significant immediate changes on first day of a new franchisee, as new/extra rolling stock, additional train crew, and sometimes additional infrastructure all have such significant lead times.

Also, don't forget that when DfT typically spin these announcements, that '180 new services' counts each 'service' in two separate directions, and separates out different days. The obvious detail from the Stakeholder briefing is that it is 90 Mon - Sat, and a separate 90 on Sundays.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/481392/east-anglia-stakeholder-briefing.pdf

So it already looks like much less than the headline figure. Then some 'new services' may be increased frequencies, or just relatively short extensions.

Thank you for the link.

Well, sort of anyway. I feel short changed by the DfT already

 

[3141]

Thank you for the link.

Well, sort of anyway. I feel short changed by the DfT already ??????

The same approach is taken by TOCs as well, unfortunately, when they talk about xxx number of extra services, or a huge number of additional seats. It often happens that some of those extra seats are provided at times or on sections of route where the demand isn't great. When the demand is greater, for example in the peaks, the extra provision may be one or two additional coaches on a few trains. Most people travel at a specific time - they have to be at work by a certain time, but they don't want to arrive there much earlier. If theirs is an 8-coach train with 500 standing passengers then 75 or even 150 more seats may not mean that they'll get one, especially if they board the train several stations after its starting-point.

 

[TheEdge]

When the demand is greater, for example in the peaks, the extra provision may be one or two additional coaches on a few trains.

The issue there is the vast majority of peak trains are running as 8, 10 or 12 car already and there isn't much in the way of possibility to increase capacity. GEML the only real peak capacity increase you will see is when the Mk3 sets get replaced by EMUs but like you say correctly you will probably only see a 150 seat max increase.

 

[dk1]

I believe there was one service per day from Great Yarmouth (via Norwich) & Lowestoft (via the East Suffolk) to Liverpool Street which joined at Ipswich but that was the exception rather than the rule. The off peak services were always single 3-car 170s.

Only single 170s could operate DOO. The Gym/Lwt portions combined at Ipswich with the conductor of one working it through to Lst.

Back in Anglia days there where many 6 & 9 car operations but every service across the entire network had a guard unless it was ECS.

 

[47421]

any more speculation as to when new franchisee will be announced and who it will be?

post referendum result I wonder if bidders are exercising Brexit or Material Adverse Change clauses to amend bids?

I imagine 80% or so of franchise ticket revenue is from London season ticket revenue - ie dependent on City and central London employment levels which must be looking less certain now than it was a week ago - so bidders must be worried they have got projections wrong ?

 

[KashmireHawker]

I can say, being my first point on the forum; that the Secretary of State in the Commons during Transport Questions, has stated in the last 10 minutes, that he hopes to keeps everyone waiting "not much longer". No specific date though mentioned.

 

[3141]

post referendum result I wonder if bidders are exercising Brexit or Material Adverse Change clauses to amend bids?

I think Brexit is definitely a "Material............Change", and even the Leave campaign acknowledged that "in the short term" it might cause some "perturbation". Bidders will certainly be concerned about how it will affect the first few years of their franchise, and any effect in the first years will impact the later ones as well.

 

[dk1]

Just tweeted...

 

[northwichcat]

Just tweeted...

Which is 21st July in case anyone was wondering.

 

[dk1]

Which is 21st July in case anyone was wondering.

Am I right in thinking it has to be 3 months from the announcement to commencement?

Was told by somebody else who seems to have a few contacts (here we go I know) that it will be next Monday.

My personal choice has always been First, Abellio, NX, in that order.

 

[ainsworth74]

Was told by somebody else who seems to have a few contacts (here we go I know) that it will be next Monday.

I've always been under the impression that the railway runs on three things. Tea, bacon sandwiches and rampant rumours!

 

[dk1]

I've always been under the impression that the railway runs on three things. Tea, bacon sandwiches and rampant rumours!

Very true, except in these modern times the initial two are now AMT coffee & JDW Eggs Royale

 

[ainsworth74]

Haha, clearly I'm behind the times!

 

[HH]

The issue there is the vast majority of peak trains are running as 8, 10 or 12 car already and there isn't much in the way of possibility to increase capacity. GEML the only real peak capacity increase you will see is when the Mk3 sets get replaced by EMUs but like you say correctly you will probably only see a 150 seat max increase.

There are a number of 8 cars still, that could be run as 12-cars. The real problem is that the trains can't stop at all the stations they need to because the timings don't allow it. But that is solvable, at a price.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Am I right in thinking it has to be 3 months from the announcement to commencement?

3 months has always been seen as the minimum, but post-Brown DfT was supposed to be changing it to 4.

 

[grumblingalong]

that is solvable, at a price.

GEML summed up in 6 words

 

[TheEdge]

GEML summed up in 6 words

Make it...

that is solvable, at an enourmous price.

 

[SPADTrap]

Make it...

that is solvable, at an enourmous price that no one wants to pay

 

[HH]

that is solvable, at an enourmous price that no one wants to pay

It's *enormous*. And the only ones that have to pay and don't want to is HMG. To persuade them otherwise requires a sensible business case. My guess is that there is such a case if anyone is prepared to invest to make it.

 

[grumblingalong]

And there was I thinking I had solved 70% of the threads in this forum

 

[306024]

Notable pinch points such as Chelmsford and its viaduct would cost a fortune to solve. According to a Modern Railways article the other month ECTS is needed to increase capacity, and that's not coming anytime soon to the GEML. Perhaps the route should be pushed up the agenda?

 

[Bald Rick]

Notable pinch points such as Chelmsford and its viaduct would cost a fortune to solve. According to a Modern Railways article the other month ECTS is needed to increase capacity, and that's not coming anytime soon to the GEML. Perhaps the route should be pushed up the agenda?

ETCS doesn't magic up new platforms at Liverpool Street, nor does it allow a main line fast train to overtake a slower one without causing the slower one to be delayed an extra 5 minutes.

 

[306024]

Indeed not, but if (and it is an unproven big IF) ECTS allowed a marginal increase in trains per hour into Liverpool St in the peak, platforming alone would not be a major issue post Crossrail.

As for loops, Beaulieu Park is being trumpeted as a way to increase capacity. The jury is out on that too at the moment.

 

[HH]

ECTS would theoretically allow more tph due to smaller gaps between services, which would solve a number of problems, with that extra space available at LST.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've always been under the impression that the railway runs on three things. Tea, bacon sandwiches and rampant rumours!

My first Area Manager amended it to read "strong tea and strong language"

 

[Bald Rick]

ECTS would theoretically allow more tph due to smaller gaps between services, which would solve a number of problems, with that extra space available at LST.

It only does that well when all trains are doing roughly the same thing. It doesn't help at all when you have, say, non stop 100mph expresses mixed with frequently stopping outer suburban services and half mile long freight trains.