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GC vs NXEC

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Auximines

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An interesting thread. A few comments:

1. NX staff aren't all little Hitlers as has been implied. I have seen some shockingly bad behaviour from a few of their grippers yes, but have seen excellent customer service too - you have to remember that they are people who have different personalities/good and bad days like the rest of us.

2. The rules about advance fares are a joke. Not the fault of NX - they just enforce them. But imagine the scenario. You book an AP ticket into London and one on a different operator for the 2nd leg of your trip. TOC 1 suffers a problem and you miss your booking on TOC 2. As happened to the poster you can prove your delay was the fault of another railway company but they say "tough - you're either stranded or it'll cost you £hundreds. The railways collectively cannot treat these as seperate transactions and treat its passengers this way - sorry upyourjunction but your rather gleeful approach isn't what the industry needs. Were I an ordinary punter I would drive.

3. GC are a joke. Unreliable and now not even cheap. But as in point 2, if something goes wrong operator-only tickets should be accepted on the other and the TOC take it up with the failed company. THAT is customer service. Is the passenger supposed to be a pawn in a bitter and childish battle of "my TOC is better than your TOC"? Punters don't give a toss what the operator is, they just want to make a journey. If things are running fine of course restrict them to a specific train and seat. But when things go wrong being petty and vindictive only makes the travelling experience shoddy and once again makes people thing about other modes of transport.
 
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D306

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After reading the first 40 posts, I have now decided that I will never be travveling on NXEC. If that attitude is all customers get apart from a few people who are helpfull, then I won't use them. I was planning on going to the NRM in York later this year and would travel by NXEC as they provide a half-hourly service, but now, I'd travel by Grand Central, even though there are all but three trains a day.
 

class 313

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After reading the first 40 posts, I have now decided that I will never be travveling on NXEC. If that attitude is all customers get apart from a few people who are helpfull, then I won't use them. I was planning on going to the NRM in York later this year and would travel by NXEC as they provide a half-hourly service, but now, I'd travel by Grand Central, even though there are all but three trains a day.

That's hardly fair say that. As many have said, some can be bad yes. But some can be good. Which IMO is the same for any TOC. Also behaviour can also change day to day so you never know. I think saying you will never travel on NXEC because of this is a bit stupid, but in the end its your opinion.
 
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It's 'sarcy'. And perhaps it wasn't the right word, but you do seem to be treating us like idiots, and we aren't. Perhaps some people are being a little short-sighted, but some of the points are very valid I'd say. Unfortunately, it seems to be some of the people that work for NXEC who are giving the company a bad reputation.

No its "Sarky"
 

5872

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I apoligise for entering this argument, 'upyourjunction', Do you work the HSTs?, If so do you do the morning Aberdeen, off KGX?.
 

Jordy

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After reading the first 40 posts, I have now decided that I will never be travveling on NXEC. If that attitude is all customers get apart from a few people who are helpfull, then I won't use them. I was planning on going to the NRM in York later this year and would travel by NXEC as they provide a half-hourly service, but now, I'd travel by Grand Central, even though there are all but three trains a day.

Hardly, the majority of NXEC staff are absolutely fine! Theres just a minority few who aren't, as you get in any train company (or any occupation for that reason!)
 
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I can't see BTP preventing GC's customers from buying onboard as advertised. I could be wrong, but I just can't see that happening. Certainly no crime is being committed, as if you intend to buy onboard as advertised then that is absolutely fine. Upyourjunction suggests that buying onboard GC is "fare evasion", it's actually "NXEC commission evasion" which - entirely my opinion - is ethically right when buying a GC ticket anyway - and fare evasion requires proof of the intention to deprive the operator (in this case GC) of the fare by refusing to pay them. But if they are merely boarding the train in order to purchase a ticket, no offence whatsoever is being committed. On the contrary, as this action is beneficial to GC and the customer it is encouraged by GC.
Now you are being rediculous, refusing to show your ticket at a barrier is fare evasion, York is an "open station" And has no barrier, ergo you can walk onto the platform and hop on any train you wish, GC don't stop at any station that NEX gate, so this scenario wouldn't even occur
 
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1 more thing. Upyourjunction. I don't appreciate being called a liar. I was stopped and had my ticket checked, and I was the only person who was stopped at that particular time. Yes I did have a valid ticket, and I was allowed on my way after a few seconds. I just so happened to be the only person getting on the GC service at the time, and the only person who had a ticket check at that time.

Not one member of staff at York would give a monkeys on seeing you hop off a TPE & onto a GC, They're too busy dispatching trains, helping passengers, ect ect.
No tickets are checked there because its an "Open Station" the Conductors onboard sell & check tickets!
Why you would claim this happened to you god only knows, but its probably something to do with you continually peddling this rubbish that NEX are trying to put down GC!. Like XC, TPE and Northern They are just another Rail company calling at York (although not very often as late). And their staff are fellow Railway workers having a hard time of it because the their Management made some bad decisions!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only if the long version is spelled "sarkastic"

Look in the dictionary!
 

robertclark125

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Some people, on other forums, are saying that Grand Central's staff aren't giving them information. I just wonder, what have the staff been told?
 
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I apoligise for entering this argument, 'upyourjunction', Do you work the HSTs?, If so do you do the morning Aberdeen, off KGX?.

no mate, sure you can appreciate that I can't give out my ID or job title on a public forum
 

Donny Dave

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Not one member of staff at York would give a monkeys on seeing you hop off a TPE & onto a GC, They're too busy dispatching trains, helping passengers, ect ect.
No tickets are checked there because its an "Open Station" the Conductors onboard sell & check tickets!
Why you would claim this happened to you god only knows, but its probably something to do with you continually peddling this rubbish that NEX are trying to put down GC!. Like XC, TPE and Northern They are just another Rail company calling at York (although not very often as late). And their staff are fellow Railway workers having a hard time of it because the their Management made some bad decisions!

Right then, that's twice you've called me a liar, and I really don't like it.

I don't know who you are, or who your work for, or where your based, but I suspect your a NXEC employee, so if you could confirm all that, it would be a great help. (PM me if you don't want to make it public.)

From the way your posting, you obviously don't go to York very much, so I will explain a few things ....

Every GC service that calls at York draws NXEC staff like flies to the smelly brown stuff. The reason for this is so they can do a headcount of passengers using the service.

Sometimes (albeit rarely), they do stop passengers and ask to see their tickets, and occasionally, ask them why they bother to use GC. I was stopped by a NXEC employee as I disembarked a TPE service on P11, purely because I was getting on the GC HST which was on P10.

If you can provide evidence that I was not stopped, and that NXEC employees do not stop GC passengers, and that NXEC do not carry out head counts on a rival service, then please post it here. Otherwise, stop calling me a liar ....
 

Pumbaa

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Just throwing in my tuppence worth here:

- NXEC I have never had a problem with south of Newcastle. It does however get a bit dodgy going on though. Particularly at KGX, I have been or seen passengers being given a rough time by their staff, but I don't think its that much more of a problem than other operator, although I do see it more frequently.

- As a company, NXEC I have no problem with. Nice website, easy to book, nice and usually emptyish trains and good food.

- Grand Central I have travelled with twice. No problems with them, although I would choose to travel with them if I could.

I have a similar experience to David; Embarking a GC service at York, walking down the platform towards the train, a NXEC staff member is stood at the side, asking for tickets to be shown. I duly show mine, and recognise him from previous wanderings at York. Briefly stop to say hello, and he is quickly joined by a colleague. We continue chatting about my travel plans, and me going on GC. Needless to say, both were less than complimentary at me using GC but I wonder why; it's not skin off their nose is it? Or has anti-GC mentality been bred into them by management?

I hope no other GC passenger has had to endure a lecture by ordinary NXEC platform staff, as to why they are 'such a crap company'. "Sorry Sir, who are you to be commenting on a private limited company, that you have no idea what you're going on about? Oh just a dispatcher are you? I thought so..."
 

5872

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Upyourjunction, You have a fair part to argue here, What I'd like to know is what are you consistently trying to get at?.


I'll be travelling with NXEC sometime during 26-30th....Just to let you know.
 

martyn29

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from my experience NXEC are fine, Ive never had any issues with the staff. Some at York will even ask what I am looking for (traction wise)
 

Max

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Travelling on NXEC today provided a couple of contrasts. The 0650 from Hull was this morning (understandably) packed out of Hull due to the football. Managed to get a seat (just about) but they were few and far between. However, upon arrival at Doncaster, masses of people got on an already full train. Apparently the service leaving 20 mins after was 'cancelled', and passengers were simply told to get onto the already wedged train. Surely it would have made far more sense to insert a stop into the Skipton train for example. The result was my train was ridiculously packed beyond Peterborough, full with many standing. The staff were pleasant, and coped well when overwhelmed at the buffet, but there was no apology for the packed nature of the train.

On the return, nearly the total opposite! The 1905 was an additional relief train to Hull inserted by NXEC at the last minute. Most people had already booked advance purchase tickets on the 1910 or 1940. I just had a saver return though. The result was that there were only 17 people on the whole 9 car train! Was a great run, non stop to Brough via Goole, and overtook the 1900 to Newcastle at Doncaster. Staff were pleasant and the food good (bet sales were well below what they were expecting - they had had a full delivery of sandwiches!).
 

Spaceflower

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Well, I've brought this up before. animal rights activists would have a field day if it were cows or horses being transported in such conditions. Humans, though and no-one really cares, especially middle-class English..........................
 

Auximines

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I remember a sick 220 with crush loading being caped at Donny one evening. We all got thrown out and Virgin told us to wait for the next one an hour later. Control didn't put a stop order on anything banging through northbound so we all waited.

Now, there's something about trying to put the entire full and standing passenger complement off a 220 onto another 220 which came in 90% full that has to be seen to be believed. GNER platform staff stood their literally laughing and noone mentioned the GNER service 5 minutes later stopping in all the same places through to Newcastle. So, only when the 220's guard came down the platform to tell the people still trying to force their way on that the train was full did the platform people act.

And what did they do? Yep, they told them the next Virgin service was in another hour!!!!!! Inter-TOC cooperation - best in the world.
 

yorkie

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And what did they do? Yep, they told them the next Virgin service was in another hour!!!!!! Inter-TOC cooperation - best in the world.

<NXEC mode>
please stop bullying NXEC, they all have the best interests of customers at heart, and they are a separate company and if this was Ryanair they'd laugh at Easyjet passengers even more... and bla bla bla </NXEC mode>

;)

Seriously though, your post demonstrates the scale of the problem and just how ridiculous it is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...The result was that there were only 17 people on the whole 9 car train! .....
I trust HT set up a full barrier in front of the 1910 and that the count of 17 will be sent to ORR to challenge Orcats revenue, as NXEC are clearly running empty trains to HT's destinations.

Oh wait, sorry, NXECs own 'rules' on how other companies should be treated do not apply to how other companies should treat NXEC. silly me!!!!

;)


 

paul1609

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I dont really have much need to go to Hull (mind you that will have changed next season ;))
I've always looked for a Hull Trains service to travel on to Doncaster but have never found one at the right time/price. I dont think Hull Trains compete with NXEC in the same way that GC have tried to do. I'm not surprised that NXEC are upset when GC application stated that their business model didnt see them abstracting any London- York revenue and the reality is that is where they are making their money.
 

Sir_Clagalot

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Not ALL NXEC Guards are 'little hitlers', I have met some very kind and generous ones recently, as well as a couple of the above!
GC can only help to grow the York-London market, but GC needs to get to grips with the (re)liability of the Power Cars. We're banging our heads just as much as the passengers (and Management)! I'm fed up with travelling round on other operator's trains just to issue tickets then come back on someone else's train! But it does mean we are trying our best NOT to leave GC ticket holders stranded/out of pocket. I do believe it's called Customer Service... We dont have the 'luxury' of another train in half an hour (on which to try and cram a second train's worth of pax), so it is really the only way to get our Passengers home.
 

paul1609

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Out of interest does anybody know what the actual problem with the GC power cars is?
I seem to recall one having a seized gearbox at Retford but is it with the Valenta Engines themselves or is it the interface with the ex- LHCS?
 

Nick W

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Hi

May I just add some exerts from the railway bylaw (thanks Rob for suggesting I look it up), and my interpretation?

9.2 (2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner.

17.

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has
with him a valid ticket.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.


18.
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

Hmm looking in favour of NEEC, but then what's a ticket?
“ticket” includes

(i) a ticket (including one issued by or on behalf of another railway
undertaking) authorising the person for whom it is issued to make the
journey covered by the fare paid on a train provided by an Operator
(whether or not it also authorises that person to make a journey on a
train provided by another railway undertaking),
(ii) any permit authorising the person to whom it is issued to travel on a
train provided by an Operator (whether or not it also authorises that
person to make a journey on a train provided by another railway
undertaking),
(iii) an authority to travel on a train provided by an Operator subject to a
condition that payment of the correct fare for the person using that
authority on which it is used is made during or at the end of that
journey or otherwise as provided by the terms applicable to its use,

(iv) a ticket authorising a person to enter a compulsory ticket area but not
to make a train journey,
(v) any type of free pass, privilege ticket, or any warrant, identity card,
voucher, or other similar authority accepted by an Operator as
authority to travel, or in exchange for or on production of which a ticket
for travel may be issued,
(vi) any identity card, reservation or other document required by an
Operator to be held or produced for use with other travel documents,
(vii) any type of smart card, pre-pay, or other form of electronic ticket, and
(viii) any other ticket or document issued for the purpose of travel of any
animal or article on the railway accepted by an
Operator;

So in conclusion
1. Click this link
http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/tickets.html
2. Print it out
3. Use it as your "ticket" at a station with a barrier.
4. Pay during your train journey.
 

yorkie

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Out of interest does anybody know what the actual problem with the GC power cars is?
I seem to recall one having a seized gearbox at Retford but is it with the Valenta Engines themselves or is it the interface with the ex- LHCS?
Various problems, most of which have been documented on wnxx and hstgen forums. I've not heard the exact details of every one admittedly, but I have not heard of a failure that has been directly attributed to the Valenta engine itself.

BTW I hope you are keeping your Valentas in good shape ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi

May I just add some exerts from the railway bylaw (thanks Rob for suggesting I look it up), and my interpretation?....
Your quote in bold appears to be applicable, but also applicable is where it says "...there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket" GC make such notices on their website and in their literature, and also it should be displayed on departure boards something like "Tickets for sale on board the train", this also appears for HT's services. I've seen it myself on the main departure board at King's Cross for example, where it is displayed for both HT and GC.
 
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Metroland

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Well really this revenue extraction is the central dispute. The rail regulator had the job at looking into the issues and took responses from various TOCs including GNER – who have since been taken over by National Express East Coast.

Firstly, there was the key issue of revenue extraction from the main TOC operator along the ECML. This was done under ‘the primary abstractive test’. Grand Central provided little information in its original application. They replied on 19th May 2004 with estimates setting out their revenue breakdown, including modal shift from cars, passengers shifting from other TOCs and so on. At the time, most of the TOCs were concerned about this issue, especially GNER[1].

The Regulator then appointed AEA Technology to carry out a review of Grand Central’s data and the credibility of its demand forecasts. As it turned out in the draft report, Grand Central did not agree with some of the conclusions.

The regulator did some MOIRA analysis (a sort of data breakdown simulator exercise) and it concluded that the service would earn £1 million revenue and 90% would be extracted from other operators. AEAT then conducted an independent assessment of GC’s forecasts and concluded the service would earn £1.3 million and, again, 90% would be extracted from other operator’s fare boxes. [2]

However, a number of assumptions in these models were not valid in GCs case. Arguments in favour of GC was the quality of their rolling stock, lower ticket costs and the introduction of services to new stations, all of which were expected to induce extra demand. In the end, the regulator agreed the MOIRA model was poor, which was hotly contested by GNER who denied GC could run the service to Teeside without extracting its revenue from passengers at York.

Other operators, especially GNER, were concerned about the reliability of GC’s rolling stock [3], this was expressed in their response to the rail regulator. Virgin too responded saying ‘the reliability of un-refurbished HSTs has been questionable’ [4]

According to Network Rail, ‘There was no evidence that the performance impact of Grand Central’s trains would be disproportionate.’ despite the disagreement of other operators [5]. In the end the regulator agreed with Grand Central, that with the proposed refurbishment of the passenger accommodation the HST’s would be ‘reliable’, but in 2004 rejected the application.

In 2006, the regulator finally agreed to allow Grand Central to run 3 services between the NE and London. [6] But required Grand Central to use: 125 mph rolling stock with performance characteristics as good as that of HSTs.

In doing so, it had to reject GNER’s application for more services and alter the rights of other operators. [7]. In other words, tweak the timetable to squeeze more out of the ECML.

GNER said ‘the proposed decision was ‘manifestly absurd in a number of respects, not least because its impact will be wholly inconsistent with its stated objectives.’ And went on further to say ‘“the proposed decision is fundamentally unsound as the key assumptions which ORR uses with regard to capacity and economic benefits are both incorrect and based on highly questionable speculation on the part of ORR.” [8]

GNER based most of their conclusions on their own experience and a further study by ARUP.

The DfT, who had taken over from the SRA concluded ‘it was concerned about the level of abstraction from other operators and the amendments required to existing access rights in order to accommodate Grand Central’s services and the impact this would have on its existing franchises’ and went on further to say the overall benefits were ‘negative’. [9]

Worrying the DfT provided some detailed analysis of the financial effects of GC's proposed decision, but requested that this should not be made public on the grounds of its confidential nature.

So why did the ORR disagree with the DfT? Well, according to the DFT

‘DfT acknowledged that it was for ORR to decide how to balance its statutory duties in reaching a decision and that the duties might not all point in the same direction and might conflict. However, DfT questioned whether we had balanced our duties correctly in this case, arguing that we had given too much weight to our duty to promote competition [10] bearing in mind this with in conjection with was in line with the requirements of EU Directive 2001/14/EC.

ATOC said it ‘was concerned that the criteria ORR used for the allocation of capacity, the criteria used by DfT in specifying franchises and the criteria being used by Network Rail in developing RUSs might not be the same’.

In the end the ORR concluded ‘from all the evidence and representations we have received, that the capacity for additional services on the ECML is uncertain.’ [11]

If you go through the report, nearly all the TOCs and other public bodies (with the exception of those in the North East) had some reservations the GC service. But it must be born in mind, the primary reasons for this was an affect on their performance and revenue extraction, not the benefits of opening up a new rail market or opening up competition, a requirement under EU law. And the data they used for their decisions was based on past performance, and nobody could predict with any certain accuracy what the likely market would be in the NE, and the additional economic benefits.

Grand central presented evidence from Tees Valley Regeneration that suggested that the gross value added (the total wider and direct economic benefit) from the Sunderland service was £37m per year for four services per day rising to £55m per year for six services per day.

These are of course positive externalities and not accounted under the objections by the other TOCs, but ORR agreed with the conclusions of GC, especially as ‘Sunderland, Teesside (via Eaglescliffe) and Bradford are among the largest conurbations in England with poor or no direct services to London’.

Grand central went on further and said York passengers would benefit from a 50% reduction in ticket costs – although of course they have put their ticket prices up in the peak since or intend to. [12]

However the DFT concluded in a later report ‘based on analysis carried out by its consultants, Jacobs, 95% of Grand Central’s revenue would be abstracted, primarily from GNER but also from other passenger train operators’ [13]

All these processes are hugely expensive and you can see why rail can end up very expensive. It’s nothing to do with maintaining the track or running a service. It wouldn’t surprise me if the cost of these management processes [within the railway] exceeds GC’s revenue for many years.

Of course this was all before Grand central collapse in reliability and breakdowns, which has meant that if the trains haven’t been cancelled or substituted for sub 100mph stock. GCs services were running at a rate of less than 60% on time, according the latest edition of Rail magazine. Pathing late running trains through the ECML is especially problematic on the two track sections between Doncaster and Grantham, because of the intermediate stations and freight provision, and of course through the Welwyn bottleneck and approaching King’s Cross.

But this brings deeper questions about competition on the railways, and whether in effect there can actually be any for passenger services on single routes, given the limitations of ORCATS, performance and infrastructure provision. Can there really be competition on lines or is this even desirable, given the management costs alone? And can the railway really expand under this structure for the cost benefit and wider benefits of the population give then changing economic and environmental climate?


[1] Page 53, Application by Grand Central for track access 2004 http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/202.pdf
[2] Page 55, Application by Grand Central for track access 2004
[3] http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-gcen_gner.pdf
[4] Page 26, Application by Grand Central for track access 2004
[5] Page 25, Application by Grand Central for track access 2004
[6] http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ecml_dec_230306.pdf
[7] http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ECML_reasons_doc.pdf
[8] Page 12, ECML reasons.
[9] Page 18. ECML reasons
[10] Page 19, ECML reasons
[11] Page 44, ECML reasons
[12] Page 54, ECML reasons
[13] Page 70, ECML reasons
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So in conclusion
1. Click this link
http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/tickets.html
2. Print it out
3. Use it as your "ticket" at a station with a barrier.
4. Pay during your train journey.

Questionable logic, considering anyone could put up a website (or interpret a website) and walk through any ticket barrier, then avoid paying. I realise Yorkie etc are not wanting to avoid paying, but some people do.

The whole point of ticket barriers is they enhance revenue collection.
 
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yorkie

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I'd just like to point out that when I referred to commission for GC, I did not mean for the GC guards, who are not on commission. I meant the company! I'm informed that the company that sells the ticket retains 10% of the face value of the ticket for themselves. So, when the likes of NXEC, FSR, etc offer 10% off, they are effectively giving up their commission. I believe NXEC guards are on 5% comission, so the company also gets 5%. Hope that clarifies!! :)
 

hairyhandedfool

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Does it really matter to joe bloggs where the ticket is bought?

In an age where we have internet ticket sites, Ticket Offices, TVMs, and barrier staff in places, should we really feel the need to buy on-board? GC only have that notice on there website so they can crab revenue which, in reality, they should not be getting. NXEC should have the expectation that passengers, be it GC, NXEC, FTPE, or Northern, will have bought their tickets before they get to the platform. Is it not reasonable that NXEC would see anything else as attempted fare evasion and treat it accordingly?

If indeed they are targeting only GC passengers then this is unfair, but if you already have a ticket what can they do? Nothing.
 

yorkie

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Does it really matter to joe bloggs where the ticket is bought?

In an age where we have internet ticket sites, Ticket Offices, TVMs, and barrier staff in places, should we really feel the need to buy on-board? GC only have that notice on there website so they can crab revenue which, in reality, they should not be getting.
You cannot possibly be serious....

Your ridiculous post doesn't really deserve a response but I ask you this: why is the commission on GC only tickets not 'rightfully theirs' and why should NXEC cream it?

anyone buying online would be bonkers given the fact there is no benefit yet if it's cancelled NXEC may screw you.

NXEC should have the expectation that passengers, be it GC, NXEC, FTPE, or Northern, will have bought their tickets before they get to the platform.
Why should they?

What business is it of theirs what customers of other TOCs do?

Although I rarely buy on board, many people do at peak time. Early turns are quite lucrative apparently. NT guards working trains through Harrogate for example can make a fair bit of commission selling through London tickets.

Is it not reasonable that NXEC would see anything else as attempted fare evasion and treat it accordingly?
Errr... no.

Saying 'I'm getting the GC and paying on board' does not make you a 'fare evader', what planet are you on?

If indeed they are targeting only GC passengers then this is unfair, but if you already have a ticket what can they do? Nothing.
That completely misses the point.


 

1D53

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In fact once commission is included some of the Harrogate guards take home as much as drivers!
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