GC vs NXEC

[me123]

This is getting tedious to read. I've had nothing but excellentcustomer service from NXEC crews. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but I nevertheless look forward to my trips to Edinburgh and Aberdeen when I'm lucky enough to use this operator.

upyourjunction has come onto this site probably looking for interesting railway discussions and IMO has been bullied. No appears to know anything about this person other than the fact they work for NXEC and they are being abused as if they are one fo those "hitler-esque" ticket inspectors. No one on this forum has any evidence to prove that he is, as far as I am aware.

I don't want to be accused of backseat moderating, but please calm down. The thread's beginning to get really boring and no-one seems to making themselves or the forum look good in any way. As metroland has said, let's please behave reasonably.

 

[Max]

Okay. me123, I am going to accuse you of backseat moderating, because personally I've found this thread pretty interesting reading. We're simply debating things, which isn't against the forum rules. Wouldn't it just be boring if everybody had the same views?

upyourjunction has come onto this site probably looking for interesting railway discussions and IMO has been bullied. No appears to know anything about this person other than the fact they work for NXEC and they are being abused as if they are one fo those "hitler-esque" ticket inspectors. No one on this forum has any evidence to prove that he is, as far as I am aware.

Nobody has accused him of being "hitler-esque". However, the fact that his first post on the forum was...

How very dare you blame NXEC staff? You obviously have no idea of abuse we suffer at the hands of the public! GC screws up their travel plans with a S*** service & who gets it in the neck, the poor bloke in the booking office or on the information desk!
Treat anyone with politeness & respect & you get the same back!

...which seems to suggest that his aim was to defend National Express in a rather silly way. He hasn't posted anywhere else. The posts have all come across as rather rude and sarcy, and personally if I was National Express I wouldn't employ people who appear to resent passengers of the railways so much. But that's more my opinion than anything else.

However, personally, I don't agree with walking through barrier checks without showing a ticket, as the people are put there to do a job. National Express do have a right to control their stations how they wish. I don't really understand what happened to David, seems rather strange. However, how do you know he was imagining it 'upyourjunction'? Were you there at the time? David wouldn't just lie for the sake of it.

I'm happy for this conversation to continue, but the mudslinging has to stop.

Thanks

 

[BOSCH]

Personally I dont think upyourjunction has been bullied,they came on here with an attitude IMO.I'm assuming they maybe work in either KX or York where they have to deal with our unfortunate passengers,sorry !!! However,your staff attitude at KX stinks(apart from 1 or 2 I know that are very helpful to ALL pax).Having nxec customer info staff refer to me as walt disney(I work for a mickey mouse company apparently)does nothing to enhance their reputation(Being the gentleman I am I refrained from dragging said person from their seat and taking said person outside for a f@@@ing good kicking !!
nxec and gner before them have poisened the minds of all the post privatisation staff,you cant think for yourselves anymore,ask the staff that worked for intercity eastcoast,intercity and BR,it was better then,believe me !!

 

[Max]

Yes, I have to say, I have often seen National Express staff be rude to passengers totally unprovoked. They're not isolated cases.

 

[upyourjunction]

Okay. me123, I am going to accuse you of backseat moderating, because personally I've found this thread pretty interesting reading. We're simply debating things, which isn't against the forum rules. Wouldn't it just be boring if everybody had the same views?



Nobody has accused him of being "hitler-esque". However, the fact that his first post on the forum was...



...which seems to suggest that his aim was to defend National Express in a rather silly way. He hasn't posted anywhere else. The posts have all come across as rather rude and sarcy, and personally if I was National Express I wouldn't employ people who appear to resent passengers of the railways so much. But that's more my opinion than anything else.

However, personally, I don't agree with walking through barrier checks without showing a ticket, as the people are put there to do a job. National Express do have a right to control their stations how they wish. I don't really understand what happened to David, seems rather strange. However, how do you know he was imagining it 'upyourjunction'? Were you there at the time? David wouldn't just lie for the sake of it.

I'm happy for this conversation to continue, but the mudslinging has to stop.

Thanks

Just read my post that you just quoted, how is it Sarky, And I wasn't defending National Express! just the people that work for them!
I don't resent passengers, only ignorant ones
Thanks me123 but after more than 30 years in this game I've got a thick skin

 

[Metroland]

Yes, I have to say, I have often seen National Express staff be rude to passengers totally unprovoked. They're not isolated cases.

I agree with you Max, there's no excuse and they should be named and shamed especially if it's not provoked.

My concern with Yorkie et all, is they are being provocative. I understand they want to see GC succeed, but feel they are making a rod for their own back. Its most concerning that the two people that run this forum are almost encouraging people to do the same. Now you can call this back seat moderating if you like, but actually it's a piece of advice. You can take it or leave it.

If they want to stand and argue the toss with ticket barrier staff, fair enough, but don't be surprised if they are not over friendly, that's all I'm saying, especially if they have been told to check for all tickets by their managers.

 

[Max]

Just read my post that you just quoted, how is it Sarky, And I wasn't defending National Express! just the people that work for them!
I don't resent passengers, only ignorant ones
Thanks me123 but after more than 30 years in this game I've got a thick skin

It's 'sarcy'. And perhaps it wasn't the right word, but you do seem to be treating us like idiots, and we aren't. Perhaps some people are being a little short-sighted, but some of the points are very valid I'd say. Unfortunately, it seems to be some of the people that work for NXEC who are giving the company a bad reputation.

I'll give you an example of one incident I encountered. I was on a NXEC train out of KGX, travelling to Stevenage. I went to the buffet nearly as soon as we left. I was told to go and sit down though, as they weren't open yet. Fair enough. But then literally 1 minute later a lady went up to buy a sandwich and was served! Not sure why he failed to announce it, or why he told me to sit down but oh well. Anyway, I return to the buffet to find that there is absolutely no hot food available. Plus many other things were out of stock, including many of the cold sandwiches, drinks and chocolates. I commented that it was 'a bit rubbish' that they didn't have anything upon departure. I then got a snotty lecture about why it wasn't rubbish at all and that I was being rude by saying this! Eh? What kind of attitude is that? And it isn't the first time NXEC staff have been rude for no good reason.

So simply put, I don't know how you can defend staff such as this. They do give the railways a bad name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with you Max, there's no excuse and they should be named and shamed especially if it's not provoked.

My concern with Yorkie et all, is they are being provocative. I understand they want to see GC succeed, but feel they are making a rod for their own back. Its most concerning that the two people that run this forum are almost encouraging people to do the same. Now you can call this back seat moderating if you like, but actually it's a piece of advice. You can take it or leave it.

If they want to stand and argue the toss with ticket barrier staff, fair enough, but don't be surprised if they are not over friendly, that's all I'm saying, especially if they have been told to check for all tickets by their managers.

That's why I don't agree with all of what has been said. Walking through barriers is wrong, and I stated this. I also said that the mudslinging should stop. They can argue all they like with the barrier staff, but not in this thread.

 

[Donny Dave]

I agree with you Max, there's no excuse and they should be named and shamed especially if it's not provoked.

My concern with Yorkie et all, is they are being provocative. I understand they want to see GC succeed, but feel they are making a rod for their own back. Its most concerning that the two people that run this forum are almost encouraging people to do the same.

If they want to stand and argue the toss with ticket barrier staff, fair enough, but don't be surprised if they are not over friendly, that's all I'm saying, especially if they have been told to check for all tickets by their managers.

Hang on. Where am I encouraging people to have a go at others? I've merely pointed out what happens at York.

Also, where has it been said that I've argues with staff who have been checking my ticket? All I said was that out of all the people that left the TPE service, I was the only person asked to show tickets, because I was the only person getting on the GC service.

1 more thing. Upyourjunction. I don't appreciate being called a liar. I was stopped and had my ticket checked, and I was the only person who was stopped at that particular time. Yes I did have a valid ticket, and I was allowed on my way after a few seconds. I just so happened to be the only person getting on the GC service at the time, and the only person who had a ticket check at that time.

 

[BOSCH]

Hang on. Where am I encouraging people to have a go at others? I've merely pointed out what happens at York.

Also, where has it been said that I've argues with staff who have been checking my ticket? All I said was that out of all the people that left the TPE service, I was the only person asked to show tickets, because I was the only person getting on the GC service.

1 more thing. Upyourjunction. I don't appreciate being called a liar. I was stopped and had my ticket checked, and I was the only person who was stopped at that particular time. Yes I did have a valid ticket, and I was allowed on my way after a few seconds. I just so happened to be the only person getting on the GC service at the time, and the only person who had a ticket check at that time.

Cheers David,8)

 

[Spaceflower]

This sounds like a messy business.:???:

 

[yorkie]

metroland - who are you calling a "trainspotter"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is getting tedious to read. I've had nothing but excellentcustomer service from NXEC crews. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but I nevertheless look forward to my trips to Edinburgh and Aberdeen when I'm lucky enough to use this operator.

We've already established that the Scottish crews are of a higher standard, particularly if compared to the London crews.

upyourjunction has come onto this site probably looking for interesting railway discussions

I don't think so, it's pretty obvious what he is looking for...

and IMO has been bullied. No appears to know anything about this person other than the fact they work for NXEC and they are being abused as if they are one fo those "hitler-esque" ticket inspectors. No one on this forum has any evidence to prove that he is, as far as I am aware.

Unbelievable. I don't know how to reply to that bizarre claim!

I don't want to be accused of backseat moderating, but please calm down. The thread's beginning to get really boring and no-one seems to making themselves or the forum look good in any way. As metroland has said, let's please behave reasonably.

if it's that boring don't read it.

Certain claims need to be challenged.

 

[Metroland]

Hang on. Where am I encouraging people to have a go at others? I've merely pointed out what happens at York.

Fair enough. However, remarks that Yorkie has made about illegal barriers are leaps of faith in my opinion and should be taken with a pinch of salt. The air of GC = good, NXEC = bad which has been presented on this forum may or may not be true. I don't give a stuff either way. But I do know people (because of subsequent conversations I've had) now think it's quite aright to walk through barriers because NXEC are ripping people off. I hope you are happy about that as a moderator/administrator

 

[yorkie]

.... Walking through barriers is wrong,...

Do you mean "walking through barriers without having a ticket because you are buying on board GC to let them have your commission is wrong"? If so, I strongly disagree.

 

[Metroland]

metroland - who are you calling a "trainspotter"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well where is your railway experience and legal expertise? Perhaps it's a derogatory term, you decide, but I'd be very careful about remarks you are unqualified to make.

 

[yorkie]

hmn, well I agree a lot of assumptions are being made, personally I like to see a lot more backed up with fact on this forum instead of a lot of snide finger pointing and ranting.

Well the Manchester example is fact, I am reliably informed...

By all means state speculation, but walking past ticket barriers and making unfounded accusations is extremely childish. It's funny the comparison with airlines was made, because I'm damn sure if you walked through a barrier there, you'd be taken at gun point into a small room and strip searched and bound over in a security breach.

Interesting comparison! What would happen if BA tried to barrier the entrance to Easyjet? Hmmm...

It might seem like I'm taking sides, but I think some forum members are behaving entirely unreasonably.

Indeed, some are.

 

[me123]

Yorkie, I'll state that I'm not opposed to the debate, but I do feel that some poeple are being treated unfairly. I'm not defending the behaviour on the thread, but I do feel that in many cases the debate has dissolved into school-yard name calling.

The issue is, of course, serious, but some people have chosen to become argumentative and rude, and others have followed suit. I don't believe telling people that they should be fired can be considered constructive or spirited debate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, some are.

Hold on a minute... I made that point as well and you dismissed it...

 

[yorkie]

Well where is your railway experience and legal expertise? Perhaps it's a derogatory term, you decide, but I'd be very careful about remarks you are unqualified to make.

Of course you are using it as a derogatory term.

Who is "qualified" to make any of the remarks made on this forum then, if you are going to take that view?

 

[Metroland]

Well the Manchester example is fact, I am reliably informed...

What happens at Manchester may be different as to what happens elsewhere. Being reliably informed does not make it fact or unchallengeable in court.

Interesting comparison! What would happen if BA tried to barrier the entrance to Easyjet? Hmmm...

Airport operators like BAA run airports, and they work on an entirely different system, insomuch as there is individual check in desks. BA do not own/lease airports, and the agreements and legal framework are entirely different as the two modes of transport are entirely different.

Indeed, some are.

I'm not taking sides, I'm advising you to look before you leap. Not especially for your sake, but more the impressionable kid that walks through a barrier because he read something on an internet forum and ends up being picked up by BTP.

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, I'll state that I'm not opposed to the debate, but I do feel that some poeple are being treated unfairly. I'm not defending the behaviour on the thread, but I do feel that in many cases the debate has dissolved into school-yard name calling.

The issue is, of course, serious, but some people have chosen to become argumentative and rude, and others have followed suit. I don't believe telling people that they should be fired can be considered constructive or spirited debate.

Well, I agree to a point, but when someone comes on here representing a company and then makes derogatory comments about their customers, some are likely to react in that way. I agree that Richard's reply that he should be sacked is not constructive, but it does demonstrate how many passengers feel when NXEC emplpoyees make comments like those posted by
upyourjunction toward their own customers.

Hold on a minute... I made that point as well and you dismissed it...

I dismissed the idea that he has been "bullied".

 

[Metroland]

Of course you are using it as a derogatory term.

Who is "qualified" to make any of the remarks made on this forum then, if you are going to take that view?

Well not rail enthusiasts with little or no operating experience. I'm sorry if you find that offensive, I'm sure people with years of real experience that don't get their world view through train magazines find it equally offensive being told their jobs - which happens more often than not by people on this forum that have not even left school.

 

[me123]

Fair dos, but I feel many members of the forum including some staff are in this one thread, bringing the good name of the forum down. I hate to use what is fastly becoming a cliché, but "an eye for an eye, and the world will go blind".

PS, the only reason I was looking on the thread originally was for info about GC (it was on he GC Updates thread earlier). They may not be doing a great job ATM, but I would like to see them do well in the future.

 

[yorkie]

What happens at Manchester may be different as to what happens elsewhere. Being reliably informed does not make it fact or unchallengeable in court.

I am not claiming to give legal advice. I find it hard to believe that Manchester is an exception. If NXEC are permitted to barrier GC/HT trains, why don't they? and why does it say "tickets for sale onboard"?

Airport operators like BAA run airports, and they work on an entirely different system, insomuch as there is individual check in desks. BA do not own/lease airports, and the agreements and legal framework are entirely different as the two modes of transport are entirely different.

Yes it is different. The comparisons can be made but of course doing so has limitations.

I'm not taking sides, I'm advising you to look before you leap. Not especially for your sake, but more the impressionable kid that walks through a barrier because he read something on an internet forum and ends up being picked up by BTP.

I can't see BTP preventing GC's customers from buying onboard as advertised. I could be wrong, but I just can't see that happening. Certainly no crime is being committed, as if you intend to buy onboard as advertised then that is absolutely fine. Upyourjunction suggests that buying onboard GC is "fare evasion", it's actually "NXEC comission evasion" which - entirely my opinion - is ethically right when buying a GC ticket anwyway - and fare evasion requires proof of the intention to deprive the operator (in this case GC) of the fare by refusing to pay them. But if they are merely boarding the train in order to purchase a ticket, no offence whatsoever is being committed. On the contrary, as this action is benefitial to GC and the customer it is encouraged by GC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair dos, but I feel many members of the forum including some staff are in this one thread, bringing the good name of the forum down.....

I don't think so personally. I think that one person has been quite damaging to NXEC with his attitude toward the customers of his employers, and he has been deliberately provocative in order to get a reaction. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I guess.

 

[djw1981]

The issue as I see it with franchising - if you fly then neither BA or Easyjet manage the airport, thus the airport can insist you buy a ticket before boarding, and thus the airlines have to agree with that condition before they can fly from there.

With rail, one operator is given the 'right' to sell tickets for all operators at any one station and gets paid a commission to do so. That same operator may be told to enforce barrier checks on behalf of all operator at that station as part of their franchise.

If an operator serving that station then chooses to allow sales on board with no penalty, that creates a difficulty. All passengers could claim they are boarding that train and thus hope not to be caught by a guard, and get off at a station with no barrier checks and thus travel for free.

 

[Donny Dave]

Right then. I'm going to stick my oar in one more time. I've posted this else where, but I'll repeat it here. For the record, I am a big supporter of GC and do want to see them do well ....

It's worth noting that NXEC introduced their NXEC only BVR after GC had to apply the surcharge.

Clever bit of think that that. Force the competition to raise their prices, then introduce a new cheaper ticket ....

While I don't like the fact that GC have a lot of failures, I do admire the fact that they are trying their utmost to keep a service running by any means. It involves creative thinking, something which is lacking from most, if not all other TOCs. (As they prefer just to cancel trains.)

It doesn't matter if DML did a rubbish job of the refurb, or Northern are not maintaining the power cars properly, or if GC managers made bad decisions before the trains actually started running, the fact is things have gone wrong. It is up to the managers at GC to sort things out now. From what I've read in this topic (and others), that is what they are trying to do.

I don't know if people have noticed, but I am a big supporter of GC. Their train crew are very polite and keen to help, but I admit this is only a small consolation when the train runs into trouble, or is cancelled. Also, regardless of the faults of the management, they are trying to sort things out and keep a service running.

I know NXEC are the principal operator on the ECML, but they seem intent on stifling competition, while at the same time only concentrating on there core routes and doing very little to expand beyond them. That is why they have got competition in the first place, as other companies have seen gaps in the market which they want to exploit.

Blatent copy and paste jobs from my posts on WNXX.

 

[Metroland]

Look I'm not going to continue the conversation, because really I've made my point and as far as I'm concerned this isn't some sort of flame war.

We're all for the same things here (I hope) and want to support the railway in general. I realise several people feel very passionate about GC and that's laudable, indeed I want them to do well too.

I think we all agree that some of the arrangements within in industry are not conducive to harmonious relationships between train operators and at times this benefits the passenger even less.

 

[yorkie]

Metroland - I agree!

 

[paul1609]

Surely, NXEC are entitled as the station operators to make York a closed station and require passengers to purchase a ticket this is the situation with W&SMR at London Marylebone, Shrewsbury and probably other stations.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Commission? What's that? We dont get any! Obviously with any tickets sold on board, the revenue goes to GC.

 

[robertclark125]

If I could just add something to this debate. I currently work for Focus DIY, and in the same retail park are our rivals, Homebase. If Homebase suddenly sell out of a product, and the customer has ordered it and it's not come in, we would then say no if the customer suddenly expected Focus DIY to give them the prouct for free, and Focus DIY to suffer the loss.

It's Homebases problem, not ours.

This is the same situation on the ECML. Grand Central are unable to run trains, and people who have GC only tickets can't travel, so why should National Express East Coast take the hit, or the loss? It's Grand Central's problems, so they have to pay for it.

I'd also say this. People are complaining that they have to then pay £100 to travel on a National Express service as the Grand Central one was cancelled. Well, those passengers have a contract, as it wre, with GC, and GC have breached it. So, those passengers should be speaking to GC about, quite rightly, getting compensation, i.e. the cost of their fare on NXEC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Couldn't it be debated that as the tickets state 'London Terminals' the contract is continued through?

Well not really, the wording seems specific, You could argue that you were delayed by the railway service previously, I suppose. Equally you could ask the staff at the end of the first ticket (Paddington) to phone the station at the start of the new ticket (Euston), to arrange something for you, as they could confirm the disruption, but there is no obligation to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd also say this. People are complaining that they have to then pay £100 to travel on a National Express service as the Grand Central one was cancelled. Well, those passengers have a contract, as it wre, with GC, and GC have breached it. So, those passengers should be speaking to GC about, quite rightly, getting compensation, i.e. the cost of their fare on NXEC.

Not quite, the refund of the GC ticket would be the responsibility of the company that sold it, regardless if it is GC or not. They would not be entitled to a refund on the NXEC ticket as it was the only ticket that was valid for the journey actually made. It sucks but it is. If GC decide they should refund the NXEC ticket, it is their look out, but they would lose out and they don't have to offer it.