GC vs NXEC

[yorkie]

The TOC only has to provide onward travel for a missed connection on a through ticket, not a split ticket, however most would allow it if it was authourised through their control centre.

Where is this documented please?

 

[paul1609]

Navy Valentas are currently overhauled by MAN (B&W) who bought out Paxman the engines builders, prior to that ADTRANZ Crewe held the contract.

 

[upyourjunction]

It is fine to combine tickets providing you allow enough connectional allowance time. Presumably you did? In which case they can't refuse, I'd argue (But IANAL).
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Re-read the NCoC. You can combine tickets for your journey, providing the train calls or you allow enough connectional time. Unless you have evidence that he did not allow enough time, I suggest you do not go down that path.
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Now read the conditions page on the NEX website when you buy your ticket
Quote
"You should be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased."

If you miss your train your ticket becomes a worthless piece of paper & if a booking clerk or Guard allows you to use it its out of the goodness of their heart, but I'm afraid someone with your attitude would be paying for a brand new ticket!

Quote
"I hope you refused to show your ticket.

I have been told that in the early days NXEC tried this, but walking past them saying "I am not using your trains" did the trick."

Do this & it becomes Fare Evasion ending in You having a criminal record!

 

[paul1609]

I think the opinion of First Hull Trains on the state of GCs rolling stock as revealed in this letter is quite revealing. I dont think Hull Trains should have much of an axe to grind with GC; http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22-Gnd_Cntrl_7sa_Hull_170408.pdf

 

[Metroland]

Yes it wouldn't surprise me if the other operators approach the ORR to revoke GC's operating license on the basis of poor reliability affecting their trains and pathing sub 100mph in among 125mph trains. Indeed, I'd imagine this will be causing regulating problems, especially over the mainly 2 track section between Doncaster and Grantham.

Of course GC will be picking up the tab for operational delays @ around £30-70 per minute per train. A full blown train failure can create a delay of 10s of thousands of minutes. Under this scenario GC will indeed have no option to cease trading once they receive the bill, which would not only wipe out operating profit but probably revenue as well.

I would guess this would then end in legal battle between the train owners, train rebuilders and maintainers.

I suspect GC may well approach the government for some sort of subsidy, which could be interesting as the places they run from are core Labour areas. Of course the latter points are speculation on my part, but it is currently difficult to see how GC can weather the storm with their own resources as the letter points out.

Approaching the government could create a crisis for the DfT, as they are trying to reduce subsidy yet still provide services and may once again call into question the structure of the railways.

This is against a backdrop of angry drivers and hauliers who are about to march on Whitehall for a a substantial cut in fuel duty and the airlines withdrawing services from the NE airports and looking at bankruptcy themselves because of costs. Indeed, the government have such a crisis in transport at the moment it is not hard to see that bad decision making at this point could invoke an economic collapse scenario, which was indeed admitted by a senior official yesterday.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where is this documented please?

Railway companies allow delayed customers to use the next available connection to complete the journey to their destination. The disruption occured on the journey to London, his destination, as printed on his ticket. He made it to London and the ticket is finished with, his contract with the railway completed.

The ticket to London is of no concern to NXEC, it is a seperate ticket. It could be argued that he has been delayed due to the fault of the railway, but it is not a connecting service on his journey, it is an entirely new journey, a new contract, hence he needs to buy a new ticket or atleast excess the ticket he has. In the interest of customer service they should let him use the next service, but NXEC would have no obligation to allow him to go on that ticket. Thats the gamble you make on using two tickets for one journey.

 

[paul1609]

I believe that GNER won a court case to this effect a few months before losing the franchise.

 

[yorkie]

hairyhandedfool, I ask you again, where is that documented?

I suggest you re-read the NCoC where it clearly states you can use combinations of tickets for a 'journey' (singular)

I don't want your basil fawlty style opinion, I want to know where your claims are documented.
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I believe that GNER won a court case to this effect a few months before losing the franchise.

I don't think they did, but they lost a case where someone combined a ticket to retford with a NE rover on a non-stop train.

which demonstrates their attitude toward their customers!

the NCoC has since been clarified in the favour of customers.

 

[diligentdave]

GC HST set out of dock, believe it will be running straight down to KX, picking up workings from there.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

hairyhandedfool, I ask you again, where is that documented?

I suggest you re-read the NCoC where it clearly states you can use combinations of tickets for a 'journey' (singular)

Firstly I should clarify, I said in my previous post "...it is an entirely new journey, a new contract,...", but I should have put "...it is an entirely new ticket, a new contract,...". This may have caused confusion to some people.

The CoC does indeed say you can use a combination of tickets PROVIDED YOUR TRAIN STOPS WHERE ONE ENDS AND THE OTHER BEGINS (in this case), but it also says:

"When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought........The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so."

Which I take as meaning the rights apply as follows:

Chippenham-London...The journey was completed, albeit late, the contract is complete.

London-Sunderland...The journey was not made as the passenger arrived too late for his reserved train.

We may want to start a new thread for this as it is not what this thread was started for.

 

[Max]

Couldn't it be debated that as the tickets state 'London Terminals' the contract is continued through?

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I dont think GC will be going cap in had to the Government. As diligentdave has said, GC are not to blame!
As to the attitude of NXEC guards... the one this morning was less than polite.

 

[Metroland]

Well I hope for GC's sake the blame and costs are correctly apportioned to the rolling stock, because clearly costs are going to be incurred through delay attribution which NR and the other companies are going to pursue.

I am concerned however that the loss in business caused by cancelled trains is causing problems.

It would be lovely to think the railway industry would band together to maintain confidence and get itself through such a crises, but as we all know from the past the response is usually acrimonious exchanges and legal action as demonstrated by GNER etc

I think this is the railway's greatest weakness, short term tiffs between stakeholders and industrial action. Not surprising considering the ridiculous structure than has been put in place and the attitudes of some of the workforce. For those of us that believe in the industry, it is deeply saddening and I wish GC the very best of luck.

 

[yorkie]

Quote
"I hope you refused to show your ticket.

I have been told that in the early days NXEC tried this, but walking past them saying "I am not using your trains" did the trick."

Do this & it becomes Fare Evasion ending in You having a criminal record!

hi troll,

nope it aint fare evasion. please explain your reasoning!?

NXEC have no rights to check tickets for GC's customers, end of.

you, and your un-cooperative colleagues are certainly succeeding in your apparent mission to make ECML passengers dislike NXEC even more.

Calling customers who dare to use a rival TOC 'criminals' because they exercise their right not to have your TOC sticking it's nose in to their ticketing arrangements speaks volumes about you and your company.

As for the guard on the 0800 today, all I will say is that I am appauled by his actions and attitude.

Once GC are back to full strength and running the 19xx ex-KGX 4th service, and given the lower fares on offer, I will then use GC instead of NXEC, as they are far more deserving of my custom than your lot.

 

[Metroland]

NXEC have no rights to check tickets for GC's customers, end of.

Hmn, I would say they probably do at York as they run the station.

With respect, I'd be very careful about making assumptions of the validity of the tickets, however reasonable the cause is. It might make a lot of sense to you, me and the general passenger, but clearly as it's been pointed out, the railway is set up as an exercise in flawed market economic theory rather than anything to do with serving the needs of the passenger.

 

[yorkie]

Hmn, I would say they probably do at York as they run the station. .

No, they don't have that right.

Northern were checking TPE tickets at Manchester Piccadilly but TPE were unhappy at them getting commission which was rightfully theirs. So they put a stop to it.

GC sell tickets on board, so passengers are perfectly entitled to NOT be in possession of a ticket when walking past one of these unlawful barriers.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Exactly. I have seen barriers at York, but that was only for the duration of Royal Ascot.

 

[Max]

Surely technically, any passenger could board the train without a ticket if they just wanted the SOR?

 

[djw1981]

But NX have a franchise commitment to introduce barriers at many stations (cannot remember if this includes York), thus forcing people to buy tickets prior to boarding. Since the ticket office is open for most departures, and the barrier staff will be able to sell GC only tickets as well there is no issue.

The difference with Manchester is that Manchester is a Network Rail managed station but York is NXEC managed, and thus NXEC have the right to install barriers.

 

[upyourjunction]

hi troll,

nope it aint fare evasion. please explain your reasoning!?

NXEC have no rights to check tickets for GC's customers, end of.

you, and your un-cooperative colleagues are certainly succeeding in your apparent mission to make ECML passengers dislike NXEC even more.

Calling customers who dare to use a rival TOC 'criminals' because they exercise their right not to have your TOC sticking it's nose in to their ticketing arrangements speaks volumes about you and your company.

As for the guard on the 0800 today, all I will say is that I am appauled by his actions and attitude.

Once GC are back to full strength and running the 19xx ex-KGX 4th service, and given the lower fares on offer, I will then use GC instead of NXEC, as they are far more deserving of my custom than your lot.

We deal with your sort every day of the week and no matter how right you think you are and how loud you shout, it all goes quite when the boys of the BTP turn up.
When NEX decide to barrier checks at a station that they run all passengers are required to show a valid ticket wether you like it or not! It doesn't matter which company you traveled with.

Its time the rail companies took a leaf out of the airlines book and banned people like you that are rude and abusive to their staff from using their services!

 

[richa2002]

More like the sooner NXEC sack you the better...

 

[djw1981]

Its time the rail companies took a leaf out of the airlines book and banned people like you that are rude and abusive to their staff from using their services!

Airline customer services staff are generally polite to their customers and not offensive to the main income stream.

 

[Metroland]

Oh give it a rest you lot this area, is way beyond your expertise. Personally I find a bunch of trainspotters who seem to think they know all about complex operational agreement and are lecturing staff equally rude and offensive.

Sorry Yorkie, you don't know what on earth you are talking about, you have nil expertise in these matters. The access agreement, Network and station codes, and station access agreements are a very complex area, and National express do have responsibility for certain stations and can challenge who is there.

If you want to read the station access codes, all 400 pages, feel free.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/the_stations_codev_120706.pdf

 

[Donny Dave]

We deal with your sort every day of the week and no matter how right you think you are and how loud you shout, it all goes quite when the boys of the BTP turn up.
When NEX decide to barrier checks at a station that they run all passengers are required to show a valid ticket wether you like it or not! It doesn't matter which company you traveled with.

Its time the rail companies took a leaf out of the airlines book and banned people like you that are rude and abusive to their staff from using their services!

It's staff like you why I refuse to travel with NXEC now ....

For the record, when I was stopped at York, I had just arrived from Leeds on a TPE service (arrived in P11), the GC set was on P10, and I went straight across. I was stopped as I had 1 foot in the HST. out of all the passengers that left the TPE service, I was the only 1 challenged, as I was the only person getting on the GC HST.

Coincedence?

 

[1D53]

It's staff like you why I refuse to travel with NXEC now ....

For the record, when I was stopped at York, I had just arrived from Leeds on a TPE service (arrived in P11), the GC set was on P10, and I went straight across. I was stopped as I had 1 foot in the HST. out of all the passengers that left the TPE service, I was the only 1 challenged, as I was the only person getting on the GC HST.

Coincedence?

Keeping an eye on the competition, you would think NX wouldnt consider a GC a big threat........

 

[Craig]

Will echo the other guy's comments about Scottish crews being nicer, usually are IMX.

There is one particular Waverley guard who is an exception of course...

 

[upyourjunction]

It's staff like you why I refuse to travel with NXEC now ....

For the record, when I was stopped at York, I had just arrived from Leeds on a TPE service (arrived in P11), the GC set was on P10, and I went straight across. I was stopped as I had 1 foot in the HST. out of all the passengers that left the TPE service, I was the only 1 challenged, as I was the only person getting on the GC HST.

Coincedence?

You were dreaming mate! This just wouldn't happen! There are no barriers at York only on Ascot days & a member of NEX staff wouldn't give a hoot whether you were traveling on a GC train or not, stop trying to make out there's a big conspiracy against GC, They're doing a fine job screwing their own business up without help from NEX or anyone else!

 

[TheSlash]

There is one particular Waverley guard who is an exception of course...

Oh no, it's been decided, all railway staff are evil and out to persecute the enthusiast. :roll:

 

[upyourjunction]

More like the sooner NXEC sack you the better...

Silly statement, from what must be an Anorak!
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Oh give it a rest you lot this area, is way beyond your expertise. Personally I find a bunch of trainspotters who seem to think they know all about complex operational agreement and are lecturing staff equally rude and offensive.

Sorry Yorkie, you don't know what on earth you are talking about, you have nil expertise in these matters. The access agreement, Network and station codes, and station access agreements are a very complex area, and National express do have responsibility for certain stations and can challenge who is there.

If you want to read the station access codes, all 400 pages, feel free.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/the_stations_codev_120706.pdf

Well said!

 

[Metroland]

hmn, well I agree a lot of assumptions are being made, personally I like to see a lot more backed up with fact on this forum instead of a lot of snide finger pointing and ranting.

By all means state speculation, but walking past ticket barriers and making unfounded accusations is extremely childish. It's funny the comparison with airlines was made, because I'm damn sure if you walked through a barrier there, you'd be taken at gun point into a small room and strip searched and bound over in a security breach.

It might seem like I'm taking sides, but I think some forum members are behaving entirely unreasonably.