GC fare to York cheaper than Donny

[yorkie]

The GC only single from London to Doncaster is £40, and Wakefield is £49. I think in both cases a London - York ticket (£35) is valid, as Doncaster and Wakefield are on permitted routes between London and York. It is valid for a customer to end their journey short. The lack of a connecting train that would be valid for the ticket does not make the ticket invalid.

A Wakefield-London return also costs more than York-London, but from Doncaster it's £1 cheaper than the York ticket.

Over 60s get 25% off all tickets (no railcard required) on the West Riding route, however on the Sunderland route the discount is not applicable to the off peak ticket (unless a railcard is held, then it's the normal 1/3 off) but Over 60s (no railcard required) get 50% off the Anytime fare. So an Over 60 doing a single from Wakefield to York at peak time will be asked for £57 but if they ask for the ticket to be issued from York, this reduces to only £29.

To use an existing example, a season ticket holder from London to Leicester may take a train from Leicester to Melton Mowbray and/or between Corby and London on a day that there is no service between Melton Mowbray and Corby. They can end their journey short, or could get from Melton Mowbray to Corby by other means (e.g. bus/cycle/taxi) at their own expense.

Does anyone disagree with this analysis?

 

[John @ home]

Does anyone disagree with this analysis?

I agree that the Routeing analysis is correct.

I think you are comparing Jan-May 2010 (NFM 05) York - London fares with May-Sep 2010 (NFM 06) West Yorkshire - London ones. Grand Central fares between York and London increase from 23 May, and the discount for over 60s is reduced from 50% to 25%.

The fares I have seen are:

York - London Terminals route Grand Central Only

Anytime - First Class
NFM 05: Single £106, Return £174.
NFM 06: Single £110, Return £182.
Increase: Single 3.8%, Return £4.6%.


Anytime - Standard
NFM 05: Single £58, Return £95.
NFM 06: Single £62, Return £103.
Increase: Single 6.9%, Return £8.4%.


Anytime Senior - First Class
NFM 05: Single £53, Return £87. Discount 50%
NFM 06: Single £82.50, Return £136.50. Discount 25%
Increase: Single 55.7%, Return £56.9%.


Anytime Senior - Standard
NFM 05: Single £29, Return £47.50. Discount 50%
NFM 06: Single £46.50, Return £77.25. Discount 25%
Increase: Single 60.3%, Return £62.6%.

Off-Peak - First Class
NFM 05: Single £58, Return £94.
NFM 06: Single £59, Return £102.
Increase: Single 1.7%, Return £8.5%.


Off-Peak - Standard
NFM 05: Single £35, Return £61.
NFM 06: Single £39, Return £69.
Increase: Single 11.4%, Return £13.1%.

I notice that the Grand Central fares in NFM 05 appear in this leaflet annotated Prices valid until: 04.09.2010. This is not consistent with other fares sources.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, I was just comparing fares using the GC website ( http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/fares.html ), I see now that you have to have a CD that ATOC want to charge us over £10 for to find out that GC are doing a fares increase at a strange time of the year (most TOCs have their rises in January).

It's still cheaper for a York ticket in many of the cases I mentioned though, and I will be travelling on GC less given the new fares.

As for the Over 60s, well I had recommended GC to some who will be over 60 soon, I'll have to withdraw my recommendation and suggest they get a railcard and get Advance fares on EC.

It's such a shame that whoever is in charge of GCs ticket policy has been blundering since day one (if it's different people then they just can't get someone decent) because many other aspects about the company, including the buy on board policy are great.

I'll also have to change my recommendation for people doing day trips to not get the GC only fares, and instead get EC and split their ticket at Grantham (or Newark/Peterborough).

A day trip from Doncaster to London on a Saturday is around £66 on GC (£60 + Travelcard), but less than £60 on EC (Day return to Peterborough + Travelcard from Peterborough) with a huge choice of trains on EC.

GC also charge £3 return between any pair of stations north of York, but ADD £1 to the York - Sunderland fare, making it cheaper to split. York - Hartlepool is cheaper for a day return if you get the inter-available fare too. Are these fares unchanged?

Also, unless it's changed, an Off Peak GC only ticket has opposite validity to the Off Peak Any Permitted tickets set by EC out of London in the peaks. This is, apparently "SIMPLE". The name off peak indicates when these tickets are valid, apparently.:roll:

The fares policy is a huge own goal for GC - again :cry:

 

[Deerfold]

Ah, I was just comparing fares using the GC website ( http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/fares.html ), I see now that you have to have a CD that ATOC want to charge us over £10 for to find out that GC are doing a fares increase at a strange time of the year (most TOCs have their rises in January).

A day trip from Doncaster to London on a Saturday is around £66 on GC (£60 + Travelcard), but less than £60 on EC (Day return to Peterborough + Travelcard from Peterborough) with a huge choice of trains on EC.

GC also charge £3 return between any pair of stations north of York, but ADD £1 to the York - Sunderland fare, making it cheaper to split. York - Hartlepool is cheaper for a day return if you get the inter-available fare too. Are these fares unchanged?

The new fares information is available on the GS website : http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/North Eastern 23MAY10.pdf
http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/West Riding 23MAY10.pdf

Cunningly it's not under "fares" though

Anyone getting a single from West Yorkshire to Lodnon will be cheaper splitting at Pontefract.

 

[clagmonster]

As Yorkie states there still are anomalies, let's go back to the original question as to whether a London-York Grand Central only ticket would be valid to Doncaster or Wakefield, even so it is not possible to complete the journey on a Grand Central train. First off we check the Conditions of Carriage:
"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications."
So, ending a journey short is allowed, assuming the ticket is valid on the trains we want to use and a specific restriction on the ticket doesn't prohibit it. I have not yet seen the restrictions on the new Grand Central savers, so can't comment on those, but the open tickets are fine for break of journey, so no problem there. The only question is whether they are valid on the trains we wish to use.

"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or
any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36."
The ticket is restricted to Grand Central trains. As we wish to break our journey at Doncaster, we will not be able to travel Doncaster-York on a Grand Central train, however it is only on the leg where we are not on a Grand Central train that we will be charged for a new ticket. Therefore, so far we are perfectly valid on the Grand Central train to Doncaster, but we are compelled to use condition 16 to end out journey there.

"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket)."
I am fairly certain that the shortest route for London-York is straight up the ECML via Doncaster, so we are perfectly valid there.

In conclusion, I agree with Yorkie. I do think though that some guards may well disagree, so I do think some persuasion will be needed.

 

[tony_mac]

I agree with Nick....erm, yorkie.

If they say there is no onward GC service to York, then I would be tempted to just sit there and say 'it's ok, I'll wait.....'

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I agree with the analysis from everybody so far as regards using a York ticket on GC as far as Doncaster.

I am slightly less convinced about the Wakefield example and could forsee potential problems here. Personally I don't see a problem as it seems to comply with all the relevant Routeing and break of journey rules, but I suppose it could cause potential conflicts of opinion as it is not on a GC direct route to York. (I know Doncaster isn't either, as the only way is to double back to KGX, but I just have this sense that it could be challenged by those unfamiliar with these things).

One thing I have noted however is the restriction codes shown against the Bradford - London Rte GC Only Off - Peak tickets on our Avantix machines at work.

I put in BDI - KGX and it gave me a huge (too big in fact) selection of GC Only fares which I couldn't even begin to get my head round, but once I found the Off Peak fares I looked at the restrictions, and they made no mention of any restrictions on travel to or from London and Bradford. All they said was "Not valid on xxxx from Sunderland to London Kings Cross.". As the Sunderland trains are no use for travelling via GC to Bradford, then there appear - according to Avantix machines, to be no restrictions.

I have just looked in the Next NFM section of the Fares Manual and the Bradford & York fares have the same restriction codes next to them (although you can't read them in the NFM, it just says there are no details) - so that could prove interesting!

 

[Lampshade]

I think in GC's quest for simplicity they've inadvertently made things a little bit more complicated

 

[maddeningcrowds]

1.There is a valid connecting service. The next Grand Central service. 2. I haven't yet come across a guard who will follow you out of the train and then wait for said train to depart without you in order to challenge you about detailed aspects of ticket validity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...or perhaps I have misunderstood. Do any Sunderland services call at Doncaster?

 

[Lampshade]

Nope, all Sunderland services are first stop York.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I think in GC's quest for simplicity they've inadvertently made things a little bit more complicated

Not Half!

Not counting Advance fares (which GC don't do anyway), in the next edition of the fares manual, between Bradford and London there are:

6 x Virgin West Coast priced Rte Manchester fares

8 x East Coast Rte Any Permitted fares

and 12 x Rte Grand Central Only fares.

All these are "walk up" fares, so how Grand Central who have no Advance fares have managed to make it so complicated is quite beyond me.

Just to make it even more complicated for those of us that have to use these systems, they use non standard codes for ticket types, so you can't easily see what is what. And as they have a vast range of fares even I find it difficult to work out what is what.