GBR First Class

[Tobberz]

Apologies if this has been discussed before, I'm happy to be pointed towards the requisite thread.

Once GBR is fully rolled out, would there be utility in differentiating the different types of First Class offerings? For instance, if GBR does keep 1st on commuter/regional trains, it's clearly an entirely different offering from intercity trains.

Perhaps it would be helpful to make clear via branding & classification that some classes will have onboard catering, some provide a 1+2 seating config, and some are simply standard with tables & power sockets.

It's already somewhat confusing as-is, but is made easier by each TOC clearly being their own brand doing their own thing. In the future, I could book 1st on any GBR train and -- if I'm a layman -- would have little-to-no idea what to expect by default.

 

[DS25]

Maybe First Class, and Standard Plus, if it continues how it is?

 

[Djgr]

I would abolish first class on commuter services and run "inter city" services with two classes only.

Can we try to make things simpler for once

 

[vuzzeho]

It's already somewhat confusing as-is, but is made easier by each TOC clearly being their own brand doing their own thing. In the future, I could book 1st on any GBR train and -- if I'm a layman -- would have little-to-no idea what to expect by default.

That's likely going to be the case for a while while current fleets are running, but I imagine at some point down the line there'll be more of a push for standardisation of first class products. Probably as refurbishments happen for the IETs across LNER, GWR, TPE, and they might throw in the Avanti and EMR IETs when that happens.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’d get rid of First Class on commuter, suburban, and outer-suburban trains. Only possible exceptions I’d make is the Glasgow-Edinburgh shuttle and Waterloo to Weymouth.

Beyond that, if there is any standardisation I can’t imagine for one second that it will be in favour of the passenger. In Europe First Class generally just gives you a bigger seat, even on ICE or TGV.

 

[Djgr]

I’d get rid of First Class on commuter, suburban, and outer-suburban trains. Only possible exceptions I’d make is the Glasgow-Edinburgh shuttle and Waterloo to Weymouth.

Beyond that, if there is any standardisation I can’t imagine for one second that it will be in favour of the passenger. In Europe First Class generally just gives you a bigger seat, even on ICE or TGV.

Just having a bigger seat is fine if this is reflected in the price.

The problem with all the other stuff (food, drink etc) is that TOCs have never been able to provide them with consistency or reliability.

 

[VT 390]

I do not really see an issue with different types or product/service but it should be clearly identified so people know what they are getting.
Some form of premium/upgrade is useful on some longer local/commuter routes (such as London to Cambridge/Kings Lynn or London to Southampton as many of these routes do not offer seat reservations so a form of first class gives to option to effectively guarantee a seat.
I do think the seat in a premium offering should be somewhat different although either 2+1 or 2+2 would be fine for seat only offerings.

I think a good way to advertise service offerings would be something like:
Standard Class
Standard Plus (first class seat only, no extras)
First Class (where something is offered beyond just the seat like lounge access or on board catering)

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have lots of different "premium classes" on the railway, from commuter 1st where it's in effect just an expensive reserved seat to full service on LNER.

What approach might GBR take? I can't see it having the main IC operators all different as at present?

Will it have three classes like Avanti, or maybe just two? If two, might they be higher comfort but no extra service, extra service but not higher comfort, or both? Could there be more options, indeed, like BR's Silver Standard or Voyager classes which were dedicated Standard coaches with at seat service at a higher fare? Might HS2 do this given the desire to cram seats into the 200m units?

Any thoughts? Has anything actually been said on it?

 

[Trackman]

We have lots of different "premium classes" on the railway, from commuter 1st where it's in effect just an expensive reserved seat to full service on LNER.

What approach might GBR take? I can't see it having the main IC operators all different as at present?

Will it have three classes like Avanti, or maybe just two? If two, might they be higher comfort but no extra service, extra service but not higher comfort, or both? Could there be more options, indeed, like BR's Silver Standard or Voyager classes which were dedicated Standard coaches with at seat service at a higher fare? Might HS2 do this given the desire to cram seats into the 200m units?

Any thoughts? Has anything actually been said on it?

I bet they are scratching their heads about it.

Apart from classes, what would happen to things like TPE Weekend First and other TOCs who sell similar tickets? Puts bums on seats and increases revenue.

I can see it becoming '*only available on GBR West Coast services only' and so on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The old offerings will no doubt continue to start with, but I expect some standardisation will follow...but to what?

Wouldn't surprise me to see all commuter 1st abolished, the trend is that way bar the oddity of the Mk5s.

I'd be surprised if some sort of upgrade offer didn't continue. Self upgrading is an important revenue source now most companies won't pay for it.

 

[Sorcerer]

Call me a cynic, but if Great British Railways is to have a standardised product, I could see it moving towards a more standard premium model since there there's a desire to reduce subsidy, and first class would be a very easy cost-cutting measure. I'd like to actually know if the business travellers or the affluent leisure travellers who use it would care too much for the free meals over the guaranteed table seat and space for work laptops. Personally I quite like Avanti first class and would like to keep it the way it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder about a halfway house model - SP, but they'll serve the buffet menu at your seat on a plate. That's how it works in Germany.

Could do free tea/coffee/water as that's really cheap.

 

[quantinghome]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. First class has been part of the railways since forever so there must be some commercial logic to it otherwise it wouldn't exist.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think if it is to still exist the commuter firsts (Southern, Thameslink, etc) should be re-ranked to Standard Premium, since they definitely are nowhere near the first class offered by InterCity operators.

I could easily see a three tier system of Standard/Standard Premium/First, where first is only true first (2+1 seating, better seats (from at least the majority perspective), food included (or cooked meals available at an additional fee as per TfW)).

 

[JamesT]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. First class has been part of the railways since forever so there must be some commercial logic to it otherwise it wouldn't exist.

There are many things on the railway that are still there because it's too hard to make changes, even if they are commercially sensible.

I think if it is to still exist the commuter firsts (Southern, Thameslink, etc) should be re-ranked to Standard Premium, since they definitely are nowhere near the first class offered by InterCity operators.

I could easily see a three tier system of Standard/Standard Premium/First, where first is only true first (2+1 seating, better seats (from at least the majority perspective), food included (or cooked meals available at an additional fee as per TfW)).

It might push towards a reform of the fares system. At least some first class offerings only appear to exist so an end to end first class ticket could be sold.
It would make ticket acceptance more interesting in disruption, how do you handle a first class ticket holder when you only have standard premium? Or vice-versa?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might push towards a reform of the fares system. At least some first class offerings only appear to exist so an end to end first class ticket could be sold.

Which ones? It's true on air travel, but for rail it's usually more that first class tickets are priced down if part of the journey is Standard only.

Commuter 1st is primarily in effect an expensive seat (near) guarantee and off peak a scally hangout.

 

[Dr Day]

Varied levels of first class experience existed across different sectors in BR days, so I wouldn’t necessarily see a reason to standardise the ‘commuter’ versus ‘InterCity’ offering. There might be more standardisation of something like the Weekend First upgrade or bulk purchases of the same tea bags, but I can’t see it disappearing, especially on routes where it makes a positive contribution to finances.

 

[81A]

Which ones? It's true on air travel, but for rail it's usually more that first class tickets are priced down if part of the journey is Standard only.

Commuter 1st is primarily in effect an expensive seat (near) guarantee and off peak a scally hangout.

I think 1st on the north downs line exists mainly to sell end to end first (from further afield on GWR to the airport). It is certainly the only Turbo operated service that still has first.

 

[Snow1964]

Commuter 1st is primarily in effect an expensive seat (near) guarantee and off peak a scally hangout.

It has been downgraded enormously in recent years, even for 2+ hour services, eg South Dorset-Waterloo. Now no catering either even though most of the stations in Dorset have no shops to buy food in advance.

I think 1st on the north downs line exists mainly to sell end to end first (from further afield on GWR to the airport). It is certainly the only Turbo operated service that still has first.

When the turbos were recently (2-3 years ago) refreshed in Bristol area, didn't attempt to re-seat the former 1st class area to match standard, even though trains almost certainly going to be in service 10 years from refresh

But GWR has a very inconsistent 1st class Policy from Bristol or Cardiff (and that's nub of this thread, what standard should it be). Travel 1-2 hours towards London, Portsmouth, Exeter, Worcester, Chelternenham etc and provision of First class seating and catering varies by route. Then XC serves some services intertwined towards Exeter, Plymouth, Birmingham and standards are different again.

There is a real muddle between Inter-City standards and long routes serving multiple cities (Cardiff-Portsmouth serves 7 cities, Cardiff-London lot less cities)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has been downgraded enormously in recent years, even for 2+ hour services, eg South Dorset-Waterloo. Now no catering either even though most of the stations in Dorset have no shops to buy food in advance.

Downgraded to the point on the 444s of being less comfortable than Standard in my view, same as 350s. Certainly poorer legroom, and bizarrely despite this there's a stupid piece of metal blocking the "niche" FISA LEANs usually have on the back to increase it a bit.

 

[NCT]

How standardised was First Class offering in the BR days? Is standardisation of an inherent commercial / discretionary dimension necessarily desirable or inevitable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How standardised was First Class offering in the BR days? Is standardisation of an inherent commercial / discretionary dimension necessarily desirable or inevitable?

I think the intercity routes having a standardised offering in general is good, yes.

And probably a standard that commuter routes don't have 1st, it brings basically no value.

(Of course there are interregional
type routes in between like the Chiltern Mk5 to Brum and like slower TPEs).

 

[Dr Day]

First class seating and catering varies by route

Even on the same route eg Paddington-Cardiff and intermediate stations, if the service is operated by a 387 there is no first class, which can be a nasty surprise for some who are used to the majority of services being IEPs.

 

[quantinghome]

There are many things on the railway that are still there because it's too hard to make changes, even if they are commercially sensible.

True, but changing first class provision isn't a hard change to make. If it wasn't making money the carriages would be refurbished to standard class and that would be that.

Railways all over the world have different classes. Airlines and Ships too. This strongly indicates it's a natural way for humans to organise their transport infrastructure. It would be highly unusual if we DIDN'T have first class. In fact the two classes on British railways are a relatively simple system compared to other countries. What we have found difficult is developing more classes. The original three class system withered away long before its formal abolition in 1956. Later attempts at creating an intermediate class haven't lasted long (BR's Silver Standard) or never got off the drawing board (Virgin's original plans for the Pendolinos and Voyagers).

 

[Snow1964]

How standardised was First Class offering in the BR days? Is standardisation of an inherent commercial / discretionary dimension necessarily desirable or inevitable?

BR was very standard, inevitably 2+1 per bay or 6 person compartments , windows that lined up, usually around half as much again as second class fare regardless of route.

Catering in BR era tended to be separate vehicle, either buffet, or full sit down restaurant style.

It's only in recent years that standards have varied, and also bear no resemblance to duration (time) of travel. Some Operators have gone up in features with at seat service, lounges at selected stations. But others have reduced it to not much more than standard, as basic as just getting few mm of extra room, no food and no reservations even on services over an hour.

Some 2 hour long services get better First class than some 3-4 hour long services, very inconsistent to those not in the know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even on the same route eg Paddington-Cardiff and intermediate stations, if the service is operated by a 387 there is no first class, which can be a nasty surprise for some who are used to the majority of services being IEPs.

That's where train classification comes in. Every railway in Europe bar the UK has it. If those were REs and the IETs were IC you would know exactly what you were getting.

If DB replace an ICE with hauled stock they even represent that as a cancellation with a separate "Ersatzzug" (replacement train) put in the timetable, usually in the past as D but these days probably IC.

 

[Harpo]

The reason for all of the current variety is that each operator focussed on maximising revenue according to the customer environment on their own route, something that probably still benefits the treasury.

A one-size-fits-all solution would inevitably see babies chucked out with the bathwater.

 

[Harpo]

Each route with first class will have tailored its offer to maximise revenue. Enforcing a one-size-fits all wouldn’t work and have loads of downsides such as reduced revenue, increased costs and major logistics issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason for all of the current variety is that each operator focussed on maximising revenue according to the customer environment on their own route

Or perhaps more likely that different people have thought of different means to the same end. There isn't a wildly different demographic of passengers doing Leeds to London as Manchester to London, surely?

Consider approaches to unstaffed vehicles as another example based on different people risk assessing the same issue and coming to different conclusions.

 

[Harpo]

Or perhaps more likely that different people have thought of different means to the same end. There isn't a wildly different demographic of passengers doing Leeds to London as Manchester to London, surely?

Agreed, but not the same as anyone else, e.g. GWML, MML. I’d also bet that the onboard equipment would be expensive to harmonise along with the logistics chain that supplies each operator.