GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[CosherB]

Well DB is a German company so both laws would apply to that company, plus other countries that DB operates in? :P. The same would be if a British company had its main base in the UK and operated remotely in Germany etc. Surely I would thought that you would have/should have known that already mate .

Besides its not just UK law to take into account. There is the EU law that still applies until 2019 at the earliest until Brexit is fulfilled to my estimate anyway.

Back on topic. If Britain follows America's path and reopens some of those coal power stations for starters. I think we can look forward to seeing an increase in bulk railfreight in the not too distant future and that could utilise the extra Class 60's in the process.

'DB Cargo UK' is a legal UK entity (with a German parent company):

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02938988

I think you've just demonstrated that you fundamentally don't understand domestic and international law.

 

[50039]

Idle curiosity - what about all the 66 that DB have exported to France?

Maybe not in this instance, but if getting more UK gauge emissions compliant locomotives is difficult, would it make sense to bring those back and replace them with new-build Euro-spec locos?

 

[Bevan Price]

With Class 88 now starting to see regular use, are DRS likely to release any more 66s ? And if so - would GBRf be interested in them ?

 

[43096]

With Class 88 now starting to see regular use, are DRS likely to release any more 66s ? And if so - would GBRf be interested in them ?

I think DRS' traction policy remains a total mystery. Even to DRS.

 

[Far north 37]

With Class 88 now starting to see regular use, are DRS likely to release any more 66s ? And if so - would GBRf be interested in them ?

i cant see drs releasing anymore 66s again think they learnt there lesson the last time they seem to be using there 66s to release more of there classic traction.

 

[TimboM]

With Class 88 now starting to see regular use, are DRS likely to release any more 66s ? And if so - would GBRf be interested in them ?

i cant see drs releasing anymore 66s again think they learnt there lesson the last time they seem to be using there 66s to release more of there classic traction.

Covered a few pages back, but GBRf have spare 66 capacity as far as I know - the last batch (6677x) aren't used a great deal at the moment. They also have ones on hire to Colas and DCR (AFAIK) which could be recalled presumably.

It's heavy haul diesel locos they're needing in their fleet - of which they only really have one currently (59003). I don't think it's more 66s they need, hence the interest in the 60s.

 

[BR60062]

Covered a few pages back, but GBRf have spare 66 capacity as far as I know - the last batch (6677x) aren't used a great deal at the moment. They also have ones on hire to Colas and DCR (AFAIK) which could be recalled presumably.

It's heavy haul diesel locos they're needing in their fleet - of which they only really have one currently (59003). I don't think it's more 66s they need, hence the interest in the 60s.

To be honest, when I last passed through Peterborough last week on my latest train binge trip to Barnetby. I saw about 5-6 Class 66's sitting at their depot doing nothing. So I don't think its 66's that they are seeking but more over the powerful heavy haul locomotives such as a small fleet of Class 60's. At least that is my suspicions here although GBRF will openly deny it as they want to avoid all the foamers going on the bandwagon. But unless there is a stiff upturn in heavy haul freight. Its unlikely that DBC will need/use all those Class 60's that are kicking about at Toton anytime soon. So the best solution here would be for DBC to sell up some surplus 60's to Brush/Wabtec and then DBC/Brush could either lease or sell some Class 60's to GBRF for their use. Maybe Freightliner would be interested in some as well but that's for another topic.

I think it wouldn't be any surprise if we are to see a few GBRF liveried Class 60's that have been upgraded with new brighter headlights (like DBC has added onto their 66's just lately) running on the mainline with the DRAX trains or even new oil train contracts. The thing that has got me into thinking of the Class 60's rather than very expensive new builds is because using rebuilt/refurbished Class 60's would be cheaper and quicker than having to wait about a year for new locomotives to arrive that may not be up to the job.

Another positive point regarding the Class 60's is that the model is a tried and tested one with varying degrees of success and the Class 60 has proved itself worthy of future use on the heavy haul freights. As in the past, DBC/EWS have tried to replace them with 66's which hasn't worked too well as they have reverted to using one Class 60 on a heavy oil train as its more economical than double-headed 66's .

 

[CosherB]

Back on topic. If Britain follows America's path and reopens some of those coal power stations for starters. I think we can look forward to seeing an increase in bulk railfreight in the not too distant future and that could utilise the extra Class 60's in the process.

I think the likelihood of British coal mines opening that will bring a fleet of 60s into use is approaching zero.

The UK has ambitious carbon reduction targets to achieve over the next 20 years and burning coal won't help that aspiration a great deal.

And Brexit won't change that at all.

 

[CosherB]

I think it wouldn't be any surprise if we are to see a few GBRF liveried Class 60's that have been upgraded with new brighter headlights (like DBC has added onto their 66's just lately) running on the mainline with the DRAX trains or even new oil train contracts. The thing that has got me into thinking of the Class 60's rather than very expensive new builds is because using rebuilt/refurbished Class 60's would be cheaper and quicker than having to wait about a year for new locomotives to arrive that may not be up to the job.

It would be a major surprise to see the new-spec lighting clusters on any further Super 60s as none have been done to date, for themselves and Colas. DBC also didn't bother with them for Colas on their 67s.

It's a trivial matter compared to the more fundamental work that's done during the Super 60 refurbishment.

 

[yorkie]

The topic is GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks. I have removed some posts into: My thoughts on Donald Tump and climate change. Please stay on-topic. Thanks.

 

[tjlrailblue]

If they went for new build, which manufacturers would likely be in the frame?

Stadler we'll say would be

GEC too with class 70 with emissions compliant engine if they have one

Would Siemens, Bombardier or Alstom be interested or do they have enough on their plates without taking on small orders for uk loading gauge?

Any other manufacturers that might be interested? Who else makes heavy freight diesel locomotives? Any Chinese or Japanese companies that could be interested?

Tim

 

[Billy A]

CRRC do them for a start. Some are based on GE and EMD designs, others are their own.

As for the European makers, they offer diesels but there's increasingly little demand - Siemens for example have over 500 orders for their current loco of which something like seven are diesels. They'll build one for the UK loading gauge if anybody decides to pay silly money for the privilege.

 

[CosherB]

If they went for new build, which manufacturers would likely be in the frame?

Stadler we'll say would be

GEC too with class 70 with emissions compliant engine if they have one

Would Siemens, Bombardier or Alstom be interested or do they have enough on their plates without taking on small orders for uk loading gauge?

Any other manufacturers that might be interested? Who else makes heavy freight diesel locomotives? Any Chinese or Japanese companies that could be interested?

Tim

Sorry for being a pedant, but General Electric maufactured the Class 70 - definately not GEC!

 

[ac6000cw]

As a very outside chance, Siemens - they used to supply EMD with AC traction drives for heavy-haul freight diesels, and they produce the SC44 'Charger' 4400hp Cummins-powered passenger loco in the US.

 

[BR60062]

I think Brush should rebuild some Class 60's as I stand by this because if they rebuild some Class 60's for GBRF. They could use a traction package from ABB and rebuild the cabs with new control consoles and also add new functionality like regenerative braking that would be implemented into the AC traction motors. Not only would this provide GBRF with some cheap locomotives. But this project could be a nice learning curve for Brush/Wabtec to possibly build some new freight locomotives in the future that could be attractive to GBRF in the future if/when they expand even more .

 

[TimboM]

I think Brush should rebuild some Class 60's as I stand by this because if they rebuild some Class 60's for GBRF. They could use a traction package from ABB and rebuild the cabs with new control consoles and also add new functionality like regenerative braking that would be implemented into the AC traction motors. Not only would this provide GBRF with some cheap locomotives. But this project could be a nice learning curve for Brush/Wabtec to possibly build some new freight locomotives in the future that could be attractive to GBRF in the future if/when they expand even more .

I'm almost certain Brush/Wabtec won't speculatively rebuild/upgrade any locos off their own bat, even if they could buy some from DB. It's not their business model, nor would they commit/risk such expense on what effectively would be an experiment with no known customer. They're not exactly short of work at the moment either (92s to finish overhauling and 73/9s for GBRf for starters, plus other customers).

I'm pretty sure Brush will be involved, but as a supplier to GBRf working with them to overhaul any 60s obtained from DB.


EDIT: I stand corrected (per reports at least)! Still pretty sure GBRf are lined up as a customer though...

 

[tjlrailblue]

ok thanks for replies on new build options and manufacturers

seems like class 60s cheapest and quickest option anyway and as an enthusiast hope that happens

Tim

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think Brush should rebuild some Class 60's as I stand by this because if they rebuild some Class 60's for GBRF. They could use a traction package from ABB and rebuild the cabs with new control consoles and also add new functionality like regenerative braking that would be implemented into the AC traction motors. Not only would this provide GBRF with some cheap locomotives. But this project could be a nice learning curve for Brush/Wabtec to possibly build some new freight locomotives in the future that could be attractive to GBRF in the future if/when they expand even more .

Erm. These are diesel locomotives so I cannot see how regenerative braking would work ?. Also unless I have missed something (I am new to this thread) the current custodians of the 60s (DBC) seem unwilling to let any more go as they do not want their competitors to benefit. But in a fair world the 60s would get refurbished and get used by operators that need them.

 

[CosherB]

Erm. These are diesel locomotives so I cannot see how regenerative braking would work ?. Also unless I have missed something (I am new to this thread) the current custodians of the 60s (DBC) seem unwilling to let any more go as they do not want their competitors to benefit. But in a fair world the 60s would get refurbished and get used by operators that need them.

Minor details!

Our friend has been conspicuous by his absence of late, all the more surprising with the news of the apparent sale of 20 more 60s to Wabtec.

 

[ac6000cw]

Erm. These are diesel locomotives so I cannot see how regenerative braking would work ?

I assume BR60062 means rheostatic braking (like the 68s and 70s have).

Also unless I have missed something (I am new to this thread) the current custodians of the 60s (DBC) seem unwilling to let any more go as they do not want their competitors to benefit. But in a fair world the 60s would get refurbished and get used by operators that need them.

It's been reported in this thread - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=138834&page=2 - that 20 class 60s are being acquired by Wabtec (info originally from the WNXX forum apparently). I think it's a reasonable assumption that this will be a set of non-runners, so I assume Wabtec's idea is to create a smaller number of refurbished examples plus a collection of spare parts (and some scrap metal) from the group of 20.

 

[NSWGR 3827]

I assume BR60062 means rheostatic braking (like the 68s and 70s have).

On Diesel Locomotives it is usually called a Dynamic Brake.

 

[daikilo]

On Diesel Locomotives it is usually called a Dynamic Brake.

Dynamic brake is a collective name whilst diesel locos actually have rheostatic brakes which use the traction motors to generate electricity which is fed into resistors that convert the electricty into heat then dissipated to the air. Currently, they are not energy efficient like the regenerative braking of electric vehicles but they do save on brake wear. If the generated electricty could be stored for use during the next acceleration phase then they would be energy efficient but I don't see that happening on a freight loco.

 

[TimboM]

...20 class 60s are being acquired by Wabtec (info originally from the WNXX forum apparently). I think it's a reasonable assumption that this will be a set of non-runners, so I assume Wabtec's idea is to create a smaller number of refurbished examples plus a collection of spare parts (and some scrap metal) from the group of 20.

The assumption (on top of the assumption that these reports of a sale to Wabtec are accurate!) is that the 20 Class 60s are those DB offered up for sale last year.

I've listed them here with stored dates and most recent photos (not mine) I could find on Flickr that gives at reasonable view of them. Most are recent (from last couple of months - including quite a few close-ups from Stes Rail Pics from Saturday).

Whilst it's clearly not possible to judge a loco's mechanical state by a photo (often from distance) these do give some idea of the condition of those that may be involved. Not the worst examples (e.g. 60081) but also not the more recently stored better ones.

12 of the 20 are in the "Condemned Line" at Toton in varying states of disrepair.

Certainly adds weight to the theory Wabtec will create a smaller fleet from these, with the less good examples being spares donors (and possibly scrapped further down the line). At a guess, I reckon they'd be able to fashion in the region of c.12-14 working ones from these (14 maybe optimistic...!).

60003 (stored Nov 2006) https://flic.kr/p/VBvdpN (Looks OK-ish)
60004 (stored Nov 2009) https://flic.kr/p/VACV6T ('Condemned line' - 5th along; difficult to see condition)
60005 (stored Jan 2009) https://flic.kr/p/VSXBCb ('Condemned line' - furthest right; doesn't look as bad as some)
60006* (stored Nov 2004) https://flic.kr/p/VACV6T ('Condemned line' - 2nd along; extensive fire damage as per note)
60008 (stored Jun 2007) https://flic.kr/p/W3hBHs (looks in reasonable nick)
60013" (stored May 2011) https://flic.kr/p/WLCnNy (looks OK-ish but see note!)
60014 (Stored Dec 2008) https://flic.kr/p/VSXBCb ('Condemned line' + graffiti - doesn't look terrible beneath the additional artwork)
60018 (Stored May 2009) https://flic.kr/p/UUfvx4 (Not terrible)
60022 (Stored Dec 2009) https://flic.kr/p/WLCnp7 (Not terrible)
60023^ (Stored Aug 2008) https://flic.kr/p/WCp3Py ('Condemned line' 18th along, right of dark blue mainline 078 - not easy to see, but doesn't look too happy plus see note)
60025 (Stored Oct 2008) https://flic.kr/p/VSXBCb ('Condemned line' right of graffiti'd 014 - bit green but not as bad as some others)
60027 (Stored Feb 2009) https://flic.kr/p/URqtQq ('Condemned line' - pretty green but not as bad as some others)
60030 (Stored Apr 2008) https://flic.kr/p/GPZU1h (from May 16, doesn't look too bad then)
60031 (Stored Mar 2009) https://flic.kr/p/VSXBCb ('Condemned line' - 2nd along right of graffiti'd 014; bit green but not as bad as some others)
60032 (Stored Jul 2006) https://flic.kr/p/WCp3dy ('Condemned line' - doesn't look the best)
60037 (Stored Jan 2006) https://flic.kr/p/Xe8Q6T ('Condemned line' - bit green but not as bad as some others)
60042 (Stored Nov 2008) https://flic.kr/p/XarVsd ('Condemned line' - bit of a state)
60050 (Stored Jun 2006) https://flic.kr/p/XarW6s ('Condemned line' - doesn't look the best)
60051 (Stored Apr 2010) https://flic.kr/p/VBvdpN (Looks OK-ish)
60052 (Stored Oct 2008) https://flic.kr/p/WLCnp7 (Not terrible)

*60006 Caught fire in Oct 2004 on the S&C near Helm Tunnel on 6L85 and was extensively damaged as the fire brigade couldn't reach the remote location (some of damage can be seen here: https://flic.kr/p/8XscYY).
"60013 "threw a leg out of bed" near York on 6D43 Jarrow-Lindsey empties in May 2011
^60023 has apparently suffered a metal thief attack

 

[ac6000cw]

There is also a very recent list on WNXX (viewable at the moment via Google search page cache) with more info on the mechanical/electrical state of the 20 - mostly engine problems, plus some main alternator, wheelset, fire damage and 'wear and tear' issues.

 

[TimboM]

There is also a very recent list on WNXX (viewable at the moment via Google search page cache) with more info on the mechanical/electrical state of the 20 - mostly engine problems, plus some main alternator, wheelset, fire damage and 'wear and tear' issues.

Seen that now. Appears to be listing the issues they had at time of store. Have summarised below (hopefully no major issue in this as appears to be info 'freely' available from TOPS) and visible on Google as you say:

Two are listed as "engine failure" (60013 that threw its leg out and 008)

600022/027/031/052 are listed as "Repairs to engines"

60003/005/023/037/042/051 "Crankcase, block, crankshaft and sump"
60013 also has this listed (sounds in a right state!).

60006 "Fire Damage" (as noted above)

60025/032 "Main Generator"

60050 "Pistons, piston rings, gudgeon pins and connecting rods"

60014 "Cams and Camshafts"

60004/018 down as "Withdrawn (Wear and Tear)"

60030 "Wheels, tyres and axles"


I'm by no means a mechanic, but a lot of these sound pretty major issues. Think I'll revise my estimate to salvaging 10-12 working locos out of that lot!

 

[richieb1971]

He also admits that while no locomotive is a complete write-off, those that have been stripped will need more work. “If we have to re-wire them then obviously this adds cost,” he says.

http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/making-the-class-60s-super-again

 

[hwl]

I'm by no means a mechanic, but a lot of these sound pretty major issues. Think I'll revise my estimate to salvaging 10-12 working locos out of that lot!

As the original designers and builders Brush stand a better chance of anyone including DB in rebuilding all of them. The value to other potential users is far higher than to DB hence the incentive for Brush to get them all going. A fleet of 20 is far more attractive than a fleet of 10.

 

[TimboM]

As the original designers and builders Brush stand a better chance of anyone including DB in rebuilding all of them. The value to other potential users is far higher than to DB hence the incentive for Brush to get them all going. A fleet of 20 is far more attractive than a fleet of 10.

Agreed, however as a case study of the 16 GBRf 92s (which Brush also built) they're getting 12 of those (75%) working again and I dare say the condition of those 16 as a whole was better than these 20x 60s.

It becomes a practical and economic issue as you move onto the ones in the worst condition - fixing those will cost a lot more than the best ones, so would the business case stack up for those? Parts for the 60s will also be a) expensive and b) hard to source in some cases, so they'll most likely take ones from the worst examples (where they have them in good order) and use them.

Colas operate a fleet of 10x Class 60s; no reason GBRf couldn't. 20 is most certainly more/better than 10, but I really can't see them getting all 20 of these working. Would be more than happy to be proved wrong!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I assume BR60062 means rheostatic braking (like the 68s and 70s have).



It's been reported in this thread - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=138834&page=2 - that 20 class 60s are being acquired by Wabtec (info originally from the WNXX forum apparently). I think it's a reasonable assumption that this will be a set of non-runners, so I assume Wabtec's idea is to create a smaller number of refurbished examples plus a collection of spare parts (and some scrap metal) from the group of 20.

Ah, thanks for the information. I too think Wabtec, Brush and GBRF are together on this. Most likely the original 20 that were up for grabs.

 

[CosherB]

Ah, thanks for the information. I too think Wabtec, Brush and GBRF are together on this. Most likely the original 20 that were up for grabs.

Quite - I also believe that DB will be involved in this project, so it appears that common sense has broken out all around!