Gatwick fares pre-privatisation

[redreni]

Bit of a niche query, I know, but I am trying to find the full list of fares applicable between London and Gatwick Airport during the BR InterCity era (so from the mid 80s, say, up to privatisation in 1994). Would anyone possibly have the fares manuals from that period? Any help greatly appreciated!

 

[thedbdiboy]

I don't have the fares manuals but as I worked for NSE (South Central) back then it's worth reminding that in advance of privatisation and before the legislation had been passed, London - Gatwick was used as a test bed for post privatisation fares. So there are three distinct periods at play - pre-1983 when the fares were set by Southern Region; 1983-1993 when InterCity set the Gatwick fares but within the NSE (South Central) fare structure; and 1993 on when BR itself split out Gatwick Express fares, and introduced Thameslink and South Central between London and Gatwick, as well as 'Not Gatwick Express' fares alongside the fully interavailable fares for Season Tickets and journeys from London to south coast destinations.

 

[Watershed]

I don't have the fares manuals but as I worked for NSE (South Central) back then it's worth reminding that in advance of privatisation and before the legislation had been passed, London - Gatwick was used as a test bed for post privatisation fares. So there are three distinct periods at play - pre-1983 when the fares were set by Southern Region; 1983-1993 when InterCity set the Gatwick fares but within the NSE (South Central) fare structure; and 1993 on when BR itself split out Gatwick Express fares, and introduced Thameslink and South Central between London and Gatwick, as well as 'Not Gatwick Express' fares alongside the fully interavailable fares for Season Tickets and journeys from London to south coast destinations.

Were "Thameslink only" fares already in existence from 1993, or was that a post-privatisation "innovation"?

 

[thedbdiboy]

Were "Thameslink only" fares already in existence from 1993, or was that a post-privatisation "innovation"?

Between London and Gatwick -yes. The full set of Brighton Line 'Thameslink Only' fares came in during the early 2000s

 

[redreni]

Thanks for the replies!

I'm interested not so much in the introduction of TOC-restricted or brand-restricted fares (which came later), but in looking at the fares between various station pairs along the line, to see if there was an airport premium built into some or all of the fares to Gatwick, whether it was cheaper to split at East Croydon back then, and so on.

So there are three distinct periods at play - pre-1983 when the fares were set by Southern Region; 1983-1993 when InterCity set the Gatwick fares but within the NSE (South Central) fare structure; and 1993 on when BR itself split out Gatwick Express fares, and introduced Thameslink and South Central between London and Gatwick, as well as 'Not Gatwick Express' fares alongside the fully interavailable fares for Season Tickets and journeys from London to south coast destinations.

So from the launch of the Gatwick Express until 1993, I take it the fares were the fares regardless of which train you took, and they were set by BR InterCity? Even for short local journeys along the route?

And I take it the 1993 changes were intended simply to charge a premium for the Gatwick Express?

 

[30907]

Bit of a niche query, I know, but I am trying to find the full list of fares applicable between London and Gatwick Airport during the BR InterCity era (so from the mid 80s, say, up to privatisation in 1994). Would anyone possibly have the fares manuals from that period? Any help greatly appreciated!

The only SPM I have is 1983, so just pre InterCity when fares were
Single 3.00/4.60
Return 6.00/9.20
Day ret 3.40/5.20 (after 0930 - standard London area)
All tickets day of issue only - again standard London area.

At that stage fares on SR were still essentially mileage-based, though clearly some market adjustment had taken place as the fares were about 10% higher than they would have been if pro-rata to Horley and Crawley.

(Three Bridges had also been raised to the Crawley level, while from memory, Season rates had been adjusted 2-3 years earlier so that Gatwick and Three Bridges were identical, a not insignificant hike.)

 

[Jan Mayen]

I travelled on the Gatwick Express with my mother shortly after it had started. We were travelling from Three Bridges to London Victoria. On the return, we decided to go into the airport for coffee being getting the connection to Three Bridges. At the ticket barrier we were told there was more to pay, as tickets cost more from Victoria to Gatwick than to Three Bridges.

 

[redreni]

I travelled on the Gatwick Express with my mother shortly after it had started. We were travelling from Three Bridges to London Victoria. On the return, we decided to go into the airport for coffee being getting the connection to Three Bridges. At the ticket barrier we were told there was more to pay, as tickets cost more from Victoria to Gatwick than to Three Bridges.

Ha!

There's no break of journey restriction on returns and day returns Three Bridges to London Terminals even today. I very much doubt there would have been then! EDIT: Although, maybe if BR knew the Gatwick premium meant long-faring would be cheaper, they might have put a few BoJ restrictions in? Maybe a fares manual would shed some light?

I suspect they were just making stuff up. It may be a bit late to complain now, though...

 

[thedbdiboy]

Thanks for the replies!

I'm interested not so much in the introduction of TOC-restricted or brand-restricted fares (which came later), but in looking at the fares between various station pairs along the line, to see if there was an airport premium built into some or all of the fares to Gatwick, whether it was cheaper to split at East Croydon back then, and so on.


So from the launch of the Gatwick Express until 1993, I take it the fares were the fares regardless of which train you took, and they were set by BR InterCity? Even for short local journeys along the route?

And I take it the 1993 changes were intended simply to charge a premium for the Gatwick Express?

Gatwick was premium priced from London, but you could use any train - it wasn't 'Gatwick Express' only. The fares between London and Brighton were quite distorted, with the rate between London - Gatwick higher than that south thereof.

I travelled on the Gatwick Express with my mother shortly after it had started. We were travelling from Three Bridges to London Victoria. On the return, we decided to go into the airport for coffee being getting the connection to Three Bridges. At the ticket barrier we were told there was more to pay, as tickets cost more from Victoria to Gatwick than to Three Bridges.

Because Three Bridges and Gatwick are so close, I seem to recall this anomaly existed - at that time I was still involved in train service rather than fares which I moved over to shortly afterwards.

Ha!

There's no break of journey restriction on returns and day returns Three Bridges to London Terminals even today. I very much doubt there would have been then! EDIT: Although, maybe if BR knew the Gatwick premium meant long-faring would be cheaper, they might have put a few BoJ restrictions in? Maybe a fares manual would shed some light?

I suspect they were just making stuff up. It may be a bit late to complain now, though...

Ah, this is where myth gets in the way of reality. BR's Conditions of Carriage restricted break of journey where the intermediate fare was higher; you had to pay the difference. It was in 1996 when the first post-privatisation Conditions were introduced that this was removed - essentially it was part of the Tory bribe about the benefits of privatisation 'no more can that nasty BR tell you what you can and can't do...'.

 

[redreni]

Ah, this is where myth gets in the way of reality. BR's Conditions of Carriage restricted break of journey where the intermediate fare was higher; you had to pay the difference. It was in 1996 when the first post-privatisation Conditions were introduced that this was removed - essentially it was part of the Tory bribe about the benefits of privatisation 'no more can that nasty BR tell you what you can and can't do...'.

It wasn't so much that nasty BR telling people what to do, though, was it? It was nasty BR charging an excess because the passenger went maybe 50 yards outside the station to get a cup of coffee, even though there was no realistic way for the passenger to know there was a fare anomaly that would expose them to an excess for breaking their journey.

Interesting that it dropped out of the Conditions on privatisation. Could it have been because lawyers looked at it and advised ATOC (or whoever) that it exposed them to risk in terms of consumer law? The charging of an excess in those circumstances would be almost impossible for the consumer to predict when deciding whether to break their journey (especially if, as in Jan's case, nasty BR neglects to mention that break of journey will attract an excess fare when the passenger tries to exit the station and could still elect to remain inside the gated area, and only raises the issue when they try to re-enter). An unfair contractual term?

 

[thedbdiboy]

It wasn't so much that nasty BR telling people what to do, though, was it? It was nasty BR charging an excess because the passenger went maybe 50 yards outside the station to get a cup of coffee, even though there was no realistic way for the passenger to know there was a fare anomaly that would expose them to an excess for breaking their journey.

Interesting that it dropped out of the Conditions on privatisation. Could it have been because lawyers looked at it and advised ATOC (or whoever) that it exposed them to risk in terms of consumer law? The charging of an excess in those circumstances would be almost impossible for the consumer to predict when deciding whether to break their journey (especially if, as in Jan's case, nasty BR neglects to mention that break of journey will attract an excess fare when the passenger tries to exit the station and could still elect to remain inside the gated area, and only raises the issue when they try to re-enter). An unfair contractual term?

It was indeed the result of legal advice, I can't remember the exact specifics but there was a situation on Southeastern where schoolchildren were I believe using a cheaper ticket to undercut the fare and BR tried to stop it - the regulators and the ORR got involved and said that the rules had to be consistent, it not being the consumers fault if the fares themselves allowed for alternative uses that they choose to utilise (which to be honest was fair enough). The problem was that post-privatisation there was no overall structure to manage fares, so the railway as a whole couldn't manage anomalies but had to accommodate them.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Hazard this was after privatisation and after Connex were stripped but there was some fierce competition and marketing between Southern and Gatwick Express (prior to Gatwick Express being absorbed into Southern)
Southern had a lot of high visibility marketing targeting Gatwick pax with slogans like "next time arrive £7 better off" and "insist on the Southern £8 ticket"

Can't remember exact timeline but it was old enough that it was still 4XXs on the East and West Coast routes. People would pile on at Gatwick and the guard would issue an excess fare coupon £0.00 to anyone who had a Gatwick Express ticket.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Were "Thameslink only" fares already in existence from 1993, or was that a post-privatisation "innovation"?

I'm sure they weren't. Before privatisation, it was 'Not Gatwick Express' or 'Any Reasonable'. I seem to recall once you got to Haywards Heath, all fares south thereof were any reasonable

 

[thedbdiboy]

I'm sure they weren't. Before privatisation, it was 'Not Gatwick Express' or 'Any Reasonable'. I seem to recall once you got to Haywards Heath, all fares south thereof were any reasonable

As I said before, the Gatwick fares were restructured in advance of privatisation in 1993 as a testbed. Not speculation, I am relating facts. This created 'Gatwick Express' 'South Central' and 'Thameslink' routes from London to the airport. The other Brighton line Thameslink only fares were added much later after privatisation.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Aldershot to Guildford was another run where fares were lower to next door Farncombe... Remember big signs there saying Farncombe tickets not valid at Guildford. It was all open stations then so RPI were in regular attendance i guess

 

[Joe Paxton]

Here's a good article from September 1993 in the Independent newspaper...
Confusion fear on BR franchise line: Government hails range of fares on Gatwick route as passengers' gain.

NEW FARES on the first British Rail franchise route to Gatwick airport were hailed by the Government yesterday as the first 'tangible benefits of privatisation' but left many consumers confused and suspicious.

Passengers from the airport will have the choice of five single fares to central London, ranging from a basic pounds 7.50 to Victoria, pounds 8.60 for the non-stop Gatwick Express and pounds 9.00 for Thameslink's service to King's Cross.

But restrictions on return tickets, season tickets and from destinations other than Victoria make comparisons for anything other than a standard single fare almost impossible. The new fares begin on Sunday.

The choice of Gatwick Express for the first franchise was made because of its supposed simplicity as a discrete InterCity service with no intermediate stops. It is designed to minimise problems of through ticketing with different operators arguing over their respective revenues on a journey involving more than one franchise company.

British Rail has opted to avoid such complexity by offering just one fare - the higher Gatwick Express fare - on through journeys.

Rufus Barnes, secretary of the London Regional Passenger Committee, predicted complete confusion when InterCity franchises on lines to Peterborough and Reading began competition with Network SouthEast. He feared holders of one type of ticket could be barred from a competitor's trains to the same destination.

The lowest fare for the Gatwick service comes from BR's suburban Network SouthEast. It has lowered its single charge by pounds 1.10 to pounds 7.50 to compete with the faster non-stop Gatwick Express.

Gatwick Express and Network SouthEast each boast four trains an hour while Thameslink has a service every 30 minutes, with more in peak periods. The journey takes a minimum of 30 minutes on Gatwick Express and between four and seven minutes longer on Network SouthEast because of stops at East Croydon and Clapham Junction.

All tickets will be available from every ticket booth at Victoria and Gatwick stations despite the labelling of booths in the liveries of the separate companies.

Mr Freeman said the difference was that passengers were being offered a choice for the first time. They could choose whether they paid the pounds 1.10 extra for more comfort and a five-minute shorter journey time. Passengers with through tickets to and from stations outside the Network SouthEast area could use any service. Those with Network SouthEast tickets would have to pay the pounds 1.10 Gatwick Express premium.

At the end of the article there's a mangled block of text and numbers that was presumably a table of different fares which has lost its formatting. (I'm sure someone could resurrect this as a table using a bit of nous if they so desired.)

 

[MrJeeves]

At the end of the article there's a mangled block of text and numbers that was presumably a table of different fares which has lost its formatting. (I'm sure someone could resurrect this as a table using a bit of nous if they so desired.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                  FARES FROM GATWICK TO LONDON
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                 Gatwick Express NSE   Thameslink
Gatwick - Victoria single        8.60            7.50  -
Gatwick - Victoria CDR           11.00           8.50  -
Gatwick - London Bridge single   -               -     7.50
Gatwick - London Bridge CDR      -               -     8.50
Gatwick - City Thameslink single -               -     8.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross single     -               -     9.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross CDR        -               -     10.00
Gatwick - Victoria WS            54.40           44.60 -
Gatwick - City Thameslink WS     -               44.60 -
Gatwick - Kings Cross WS         -               -     48.00

CDR = cheap day return; WS = weekly season.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

	Gatwick Express	NSE	Thameslink
Gatwick - Victoria single	8.60	7.50	-
Gatwick - Victoria CDR	11.00	8.50	-
Gatwick - London Bridge single	-	-	7.50
Gatwick - London Bridge CDR	-	-	8.50
Gatwick - City Thameslink single	-	-	8.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross single	-	-	9.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross CDR	-	-	10.00
Gatwick - Victoria Weekly Season	54.40	44.60	-
Gatwick - City Thameslink Weekly Season	-	44.60	-
Gatwick - Kings Cross Weekly Season	-	-	48.00

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Good stuff! Presume that should read 'Gatwick Express' rather than 'Thameslink Express'? Anyone got equivalent fares before or since then, maybe at 10 year intervals?

 

[MrJeeves]

Good stuff. Presume that should read 'Gatwick Express' rather than 'Thameslink Express'. Anyone got equivalent fares before or since then, maybe at 10 year intervals?

Ah yes, almost certainly. I just didn't account for that broken bit when typing it back up!

 

[Surreytraveller]

There was never a fare 'Route NSE'. It was route 'Not Gatwick Express'

 

[MrJeeves]

There was never a fare 'Route NSE'. It was route 'Not Gatwick Express'

Remind me... What was the alternative to GatEx for Gatwick to Victoria...?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Remind me... What was the alternative to GatEx for Gatwick to Victoria...?

The normal trains. Although they were only advertised as going as far as Clapham Junction on the departure boards at Gatwick to encourage people onto the Express. Not sure when that stopped

 

[Haywain]

There was never a fare 'Route NSE'. It was route 'Not Gatwick Express'

As Gatwick Express was not part of Network South East, the description isn't unreasonable.

 

[danm14]

Interesting that Thameslink to King's Cross was charged at a premium over NSE to Victoria, whereas Thameslink to St Pancras is now significantly cheaper than Southern to Victoria. When did this swap around?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Interesting that Thameslink to King's Cross was charged at a premium over NSE to Victoria, whereas Thameslink to St Pancras is now significantly cheaper than Southern to Victoria. When did this swap around?

At the time of privatisation, the two fares were the same

 

[redreni]

Thanks, all - some really interesting stuff!

There was never a fare 'Route NSE'. It was route 'Not Gatwick Express'

So the fares labelled "NSE" in the chart are route Not Gatwick Express.

In the table below, were the orange and green fares referring to the same inter-available ticket (presumably Gatwick Airport to London Terminals route Not Gatwick Express), or two different tickets with different validity?

And what about the Gatwick Express tickets? In 1993, were they route 'Gatwick Express only', or 'Any Permitted'? If the former, when did it change?

	Gatwick Express	NSE	Thameslink
Gatwick - Victoria single	8.60	7.50	-
Gatwick - Victoria CDR	11.00	8.50	-
Gatwick - London Bridge single	-	-	7.50
Gatwick - London Bridge CDR	-	-	8.50
Gatwick - City Thameslink single	-	-	8.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross single	-	-	9.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross CDR	-	-	10.00
Gatwick - Victoria Weekly Season	54.40	44.60	-
Gatwick - City Thameslink Weekly Season	-	44.60	-
Gatwick - Kings Cross Weekly Season	-	-	48.00

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2024 ==

Interesting that Thameslink to King's Cross was charged at a premium over NSE to Victoria, whereas Thameslink to St Pancras is now significantly cheaper than Southern to Victoria. When did this swap around?

Interesting to me that Gatwick to City Thameslink was so much more expensive than Gatwick to London Bridge. City Thameslink is now a London Terminal, of course. But the fares back then look to have been distance-based. And it looks like there may have been a keenness not to allow Thameslink pricing to undercut the tube for the cross-London portion, understandably perhaps given how little capacity the line had at the time?

 

[yorkie]

Interesting that Thameslink to King's Cross was charged at a premium over NSE to Victoria, whereas Thameslink to St Pancras is now significantly cheaper than Southern to Victoria. When did this swap around?

The article says the fare to London Bridge was the same as to Victoria, however it cost more to go beyond London Bridge, hence King's Cross cost more.

(For a like-for-like comparison, it would have cost more to go to King's Cross via Victoria, compared to via London Bridge, as you'd have had the additional cost for using London Underground)

 

[redreni]

The article says the fare to London Bridge was the same as to Victoria, however it cost more to go beyond London Bridge, hence King's Cross cost more.

(For a like-for-like comparison, it would have cost more to go to King's Cross via Victoria, compared to via London Bridge, as you'd have had the additional cost for using London Underground)

According to this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Kx2j9X6IFt0/TpFUXR7Os6I/AAAAAAAARRc/myS5E_u5Kzs/s1600/P1090751.JPG
a zones 1-6 off-peak day travelcard was only £3.50 in 1993. I wonder what the fare from Gatwick to Boundary Zone 6 was at the time?

 

[thedbdiboy]

There was never a fare 'Route NSE'. It was route 'Not Gatwick Express'

WRONG - this is the 1993 experimental shadow franchise structure, see below. The route was actually South Central (which became Network SouthCentral as a BR TOU and then Connex South Central)

Remind me... What was the alternative to GatEx for Gatwick to Victoria...?

South Central

As Gatwick Express was not part of Network South East, the description isn't unreasonable.

Correct, Gatwick Express had been an InterCity division which became a TOU/TOC in its own right

Thanks, all - some really interesting stuff!


So the fares labelled "NSE" in the chart are route Not Gatwick Express.

In the table below, were the orange and green fares referring to the same inter-available ticket (presumably Gatwick Airport to London Terminals route Not Gatwick Express), or two different tickets with different validity?

And what about the Gatwick Express tickets? In 1993, were they route 'Gatwick Express only', or 'Any Permitted'? If the former, when did it change?

	Gatwick Express	NSE	Thameslink
Gatwick - Victoria single	8.60	7.50	-
Gatwick - Victoria CDR	11.00	8.50	-
Gatwick - London Bridge single	-	-	7.50
Gatwick - London Bridge CDR	-	-	8.50
Gatwick - City Thameslink single	-	-	8.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross single	-	-	9.00
Gatwick - Kings Cross CDR	-	-	10.00
Gatwick - Victoria Weekly Season	54.40	44.60	-
Gatwick - City Thameslink Weekly Season	-	44.60	-
Gatwick - Kings Cross Weekly Season	-	-	48.00

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2024 ==


Interesting to me that Gatwick to City Thameslink was so much more expensive than Gatwick to London Bridge. City Thameslink is now a London Terminal, of course. But the fares back then look to have been distance-based. And it looks like there may have been a keenness not to allow Thameslink pricing to undercut the tube for the cross-London portion, understandably perhaps given how little capacity the line had at the time?

This is the Franchise fare test structure introduced by BR in 1993, as I have stated previously, these were routed fares. From September 1993 day tickets were routed Gatwick Express only. Season Tickets were either 'Any Reasonable' or 'Not Gatwick Express'. Thameslink fares included a ross London premium, when privatised Thameslink removed this to compete with (Connex) South Central.