Gatwick Express

[Lampshade]

Could the 460s be ACified and move to Manchester for the Airport and Crewe via Airport trains?

Nope, because they don't have a pantograph coach. The 458s have a PTSO but are unlikely to ever move away from third rail land, so what they should be doing is swapping the PTSO in the 458s with a TSO from the 460s. The 458s could then remain in normal service and would enable the 460s to move north (8 460s would be more than enough to run Manchester Airport services), Hazel Grove services could then move over to 323 operation, releasing 142s to strengthen other services.

Oh wait, that's logic :roll:

Who paid for the 460s originally? I hope they keep the seating layout, the 1st class seats were great as they are huge and spacious, a lot better then even on an HST.

Porterbrook.

 

[MCR247]

That sounds familiar - with 6 x 4 car left over to dedicate to the Ascot-Guildford service?

I think it was also suggested somewhere (Modern Railways probably?) that the cabs of all the eventual units would be modified with Desiro/Electrostar style gangways, to allow easier splitting and joining in service. I wonder if that is still on the cards?

I think the original plan was

Extend 24 of the 458 by one car = 24 cars
Create 6 x 5 car units out of the remains = 30 cars
(This implies they will convert half the luggage Vans)

Whether the re-submitted plan is the same I don't know.

Surely it would be 28 as there are 28 450/5s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely it would be 28 as there are 28 450/5s?

Maybe they just want to make whatever maximum is economically expedient. I believe a lot hinges on the exact numbers of motored bogies available, and how they get divided up to make functional units...

AIUI a 458 has 3 motor bogies but a 460 has only 5...

 

[OxtedL]

Nope, because they don't have a pantograph coach. The 458s have a PTSO but are unlikely to ever move away from third rail land, so what they should be doing is swapping the PTSO in the 458s with a TSO from the 460s. The 458s could then remain in normal service and would enable the 460s to move north (8 460s would be more than enough to run Manchester Airport services), Hazel Grove services could then move over to 323 operation, releasing 142s to strengthen other services.

You, sir, are a genius. Email Porterbrook forthwith.

 

[4SRKT]

Why don't Southern just use the 442s on fast workings to Brighton, releasing Electrostars for the Gatwick Express? This is after all the sort of workings the modern REPs were made for and would get the surburban bodied 377s off some longer distance services and redeployed in a more suitable location.

 

[Chris125]

They do use 442's on fast Brighton services. Thats why they replaced the 460's, because they can operate the GatEx and be doubled up for the Brighton Express.

Chris

 

[Ministry]

The unfortunate truth is that 460s are a waste of space - overly specialised units built as a tiny fleet with no conversion potential by a company with a less than brilliant record for producing trains for the British railways. At least the plan to mangle them and fit them in with the 458s makes some use of them.

That being said to my mind the best solution would have been to split the 458 fleet between Southern and SWT enabling the 460s to stay on the GatEx and utilising the 458s for the longer distance journeys to Brighton - altho the two fleets aren't directly compatible at least there presumably would have been some overlap with the maintenance side (given that the two fleets are often described as mechanically similar / identical) and the 460s wouldn't be sat in sidings rotting away. As an added bonus SWT could have kept the 442s on the route for which they were originally intended.

 

[4SRKT]

They do use 442's on fast Brighton services. Thats why they replaced the 460's, because they can operate the GatEx and be doubled up for the Brighton Express.

Chris

Thanks. What I meant I suppose is why don't they deploy them exclusively on Brightons and only use 377s on the Gat Ex? Would seem to be deploying stock on the most suitable services that way.

 

[MCR247]

As they all ready run most of them don't they?

 

[DjU]

Surely it would be 28 as there are 28 450/5s?

24 extended 5 car 458 and Six 5 car ex460 = 30 units

 

[btcc fan]

Saw 460002 today, saw it on the 17:15 from Victoria.

 

[a1a.a1a]

Saw 460002 today, saw it on the 17:15 from Victoria.

This diag appears to be a booked 460 working on Saturdays only.... Crew knowledge I assume, until the DfT decide what to do with them .

London Victoria 05:15
Gatwick Airport 05:50 06:05
London Victoria 06:35 06:45
Gatwick Airport 07:15 07:35
London Victoria 08:05 08:30
Gatwick Airport 09:00 09:20
London Victoria 09:50 10:15
Gatwick Airport 10:45 11:05
London Victoria 11:35 12:00
Gatwick Airport 12:30 12:50
London Victoria 13:20 13:45
Gatwick Airport 14:15 14:35
London Victoria 15:05 15:30
Gatwick Airport 16:00 16:20
London Victoria 16:50 17:15
Gatwick Airport 17:45 18:05
London Victoria 18:35 19:00
Gatwick Airport 19:30 19:50
London Victoria 20:20 20:45
Gatwick Airport 21:15 21:35
London Victoria 22:05 22:30
Gatwick Airport 23:00 23:20
London Victoria 23:57

AFAIK the only units still available to Gat Ex are 01 and 02 but thats only 'cos I haven't seen any of the others for a long time (some defo are in storage somewhere).

ta

 

[mappman1000]

460002 is the only unit i've seen knocking about the past few times i've been round there. I could bang on about how unsuitable 442's are on that route for ages...

Basically, 442's are not suited to airport workings due to their small doors and vestibule areas, not alot of luggage space and the openable doors should have windows that are sealed, as i've seen them increasingly being pulled down, which is a nightmare if someone were to get trapped when a plug door opened/closed.

460's have wider vestibules and doors, a complete section for luggage. I don't see why Gatwick express cannot keept the fleet of 460's, and the 442's be used on Brighton - victoria expresses, which would free up more 377's on use on routes that 313's operate, meaning they could go back to inner suburban routes in south London where they belong.

 

[swt_passenger]

460's have wider vestibules and doors, a complete section for luggage. I don't see why Gatwick express cannot keept the fleet of 460's, and the 442's be used on Brighton - victoria expresses, which would free up more 377's on use on routes that 313's operate, meaning they could go back to inner suburban routes in south London where they belong.

There is not enough track capacity to run Gatwick Express AND the Brighton Express service in the peaks. A pretty thorough analysis of this used to be available on the DfT website, but it is no longer there...

A single 442 provides almost the same passenger capacity as a 460, two 442s together provides tons more capacity.

 

[asylumxl]

A single 442 provides almost the same passenger capacity as a 460, two 442s together provides tons more capacity.

Maybe in terms of number of seats. But was mappman said...

460's have wider vestibules and doors, a complete section for luggage.

Which I imagine, coupled with the slighty wider body profile, would make for more standing space. How did you define passenger capacity? The 378s are a perfect example of where number of seats doesn't reflect capacity.

 

[swt_passenger]

How did you define passenger capacity?

The way the DfT does. On journeys with more than 20 mins to the first stop the capacity is equal to the number of seats with no standing allowance.

Therefore the 378s are an irrelevance to the discussion. Besides, all the decisions about the GatEx have been made two or three years ago, and there's little point in locking the stable door now...

 

[mappman1000]

I mean that 460's are more suited to an airport service, because of the qualities I stated in my earlier post. If there's not enough of them, then stick some 377/4's on the remaining gatex diagrams. The 10 car 442 formations are really well suited to VIC - BTN diagrams as you can cram the punters in like sardines.

 

[asylumxl]

The way the DfT does. On journeys with more than 20 mins to the first stop the capacity is equal to the number of seats with no standing allowance.

Therefore the 378s are an irrelevance to the discussion. Besides, all the decisions about the GatEx have been made two or three years ago, and there's little point in locking the stable door now...

I'm not really sure I see the logic in that, but then again, you are quoting the DaFT. There's a lot more to capacity than the amount of seating. I'd judge capacity on crush loadings myself.

And while it is done and dusted, it doesn't change the fact some people see it as an illogical decision.

 

[MCR247]

I hope if Southern get 377/6s (or would they still be /4s); the /5s could be refurbished and changed a bit and could be used on airport services?