Gatwick Express

[GodAtum]

What ever happened to the new Gatwick Express trains? I havent seen them in a while, only the old ones.

 

[asylumxl]

Southern slowly withdrew the newer units (Class 460), as costs for the older units (Class 442) were and are lower.

I personally don't think it makes any sense, but the train operating companies aren't famed for their logical thinking.

The 460s are more accessible for disabled passengers, and have the luggage space at one end. They're ideal for an aiport service.

 

[radamfi]

But 460s are no good for running 10 coach trains down to Brighton in the peak. Until recently they parked the 460s out of service when the 442s took over for peak only. It is obviously expensive to have these trains sitting around so the 442s now run off-peak as well.

 

[GodAtum]

Thats a shame, I really liked travelling in the 460s. The first class seats were really comfy!

 

[radamfi]

Thats a shame, I really liked travelling in the 460s. The first class seats were really comfy!

I never tried the first class but I used to always sit in the coach furthest away from Victoria and often had the coach to myself.

At least you can still use the similar SWT and Scotrail trains.

 

[dk1]

All gone quiet on DfTs plans to split up the 460 sets & insert/convert to work with SWT 458s. Some vehicles where also to be used for robbing spares .

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But 460s are no good for running 10 coach trains down to Brighton in the peak. Until recently they parked the 460s out of service when the 442s took over for peak only. It is obviously expensive to have these trains sitting around so the 442s now run off-peak as well.

I believe there also wasn't enough of them for that work.

 

[brad465]

I believe they went at the time of Gatwick Express becoming part of Southern, a statement still in debate today regarding fares as many know already.

 

[swt_passenger]

All gone quiet on DfTs plans to split up the 460 sets & insert/convert to work with SWT 458s. Some vehicles where also to be used for robbing spares .

They aren't DfT's plans though.

They are part of a Porterbrook proposal to meet SWT's tendered requirement, which was for "120 to 180 vehicles (20 metre) to operate in 5 car formation. (or approx. 100 m length equivalent)." So even if all 64 x 460 vehicles could be used it would provide little more than half the tendered requirement - so there will have to be more to the Rosco's overall plan, and that's presumably why the 456s (also owned by Porterbrook) keep getting mentioned in the rail mags...

 

[GodAtum]

So are the 460s just sitting in the yard then?

 

[swt_passenger]

So are the 460s just sitting in the yard then?

Yes. They bring the odd one out now and again to substitute for a 442, but I believe at least half, maybe more, are not in regular use.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe they went at the time of Gatwick Express becoming part of Southern...

Not all at the same time. It was a gradual change - Gatwick Express transferred to the SN franchise first, then they took on some (14 maybe?) of the 442s, but not all, for peak only 'Brighton Express' extensions, but the 460s still ran in the offpeak. The decision to give up the 460s wasn't taken until more recently, and I don't think they were formally off lease until early this year...

 

[pendolino]

So are the 460s just sitting in the yard then?

Yes, at Stewarts Lane, split in half so they fit in the sidings. You can see them from the Atlantic Line.

 

[lookingforit35]

Its been said many times before, but what an odd decision.

I took my first trip on a refurbished 442 to Gatwick last week. Good standard of fittings etc, but terribly unsuited to the route due to the single doors at the end of each carriage. Took ages to disembark due to this "pinch point" as folk struggled with their luggage. Even Southern's regular 377s are far better suited.

Nothing against the 442 whatsoever. Just not on this route as it's tricky to think of less suitable 3rd rail stock.

Madness!

 

[Chris125]

Its not an ideal solution, but the 442's were sat in Eastleigh and the BML was facing a capacity crisis, so as a short term solution it made a lot of sense. That said, the sooner the 442's can be replaced with more electrostars the better.

Chris

 

[Minstral25]

Its been said many times before, but what an odd decision.

I took my first trip on a refurbished 442 to Gatwick last week. Good standard of fittings etc, but terribly unsuited to the route due to the single doors at the end of each carriage. Took ages to disembark due to this "pinch point" as folk struggled with their luggage. Even Southern's regular 377s are far better suited.

Nothing against the 442 whatsoever. Just not on this route as it's tricky to think of less suitable 3rd rail stock.

Madness!

To be fair there is not a lot a of difference between Class 442 carting air to Gatwick as there is for 460's to do so.

For example I was at Clapham Junction last night going home around 9:15pm. Whilst waiting almost 30 minutes for my train (I had just missed one) two 5-coach Southbound Gatwick Expresses went through looking completely empty as best I can judge, my train came in and despite being an 8-coach train it was standing only all the way to my destination.

Notably there were several groups of suitcases in my carriage as passengers are not willing to pay extra for the Gatwick Express - I am assuming they are Gatwick bound as I didn't ask but the train was calling at Gatwick.

 

[HSTEd]

I had an idea about the Class 460s that would get them back into use, currently they are not much use for anything but airport services due to teh fact that they have a luggage van which would probably not be used much.

Can't we turn them into Electrodiesels using the luggage van as the mounting point for the largest diesel unit that can fit, perhaps even the engine they used in the rebuilt HST Power cars?
The Genset would not detract from available passenger room and would give the units fairly spritely performance (certainly compared to none at all) on none electrified routes and would effectively turn them into a seven coach electrodiesel push pull set.
Since this would entail massive reconstruction of the luggage vans anyway, perhaps the opportunity could be taken to try and cut out a chunk of the roof to fit a pantograph well if this is practical.

Assuming a pantograph unit would be fitted you would then have seven coach push pull sets that could go anywhere on British railways.

I know its a stupid idea but it is just a thought, and having them doing something is certainly preferable to them doing nothing but rusting away in some sidings.

 

[Chris125]

There is already a plan to bring them back into use, but the DfT are taking their time approving it. Most vehicles will be put into SWT 458's to make them 5-car, with a few luggage vans broken up for spares. This will also include moving 456's to lengthen some inner-suburban services on SWT.

Chris

 

[asylumxl]

Why not use them on a long third rail service, say Waterloo to Portsmouth or Southampton. Then the luggage van could be used for luggage like the PCs of an HST set.

 

[jopsuk]

Because though services are generally busy enough to justify the use of 8 car 450s, 10 car 444s and even 12 car 450s. Going to a seven-and-a-bit car (in terms of passenger accomodation) 460 would be foolish. Plus, most of the users of those services are commuters or daytrippers.

 

[asylumxl]

Still better than the crackpot scheme of inserting them into 458s and letting the driving carriages go to waste.

I think the BML has enough services and carriages. It's a radical idea, but they could just be put back on the services they were intended and well suited for.

 

[Minstral25]

The 460's are not (as currently laid out) suitable for many services. The premium airport market is declining with most people happy to take as ordinary train as its cheaper.

They were unsuitable for the Brighton extensions hence the 442's being brought in as a temporary solution until there are enough 377's available in 2018

Whatever is to be done with them will require a total interior refit to put outer suburban or commuter seating in and probably rebuild the luggage section to take seats.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The main problem with the 460s (and it is quite a big one) is that there is only 8 of them. So even if you wanted to take on a small fleet like that, it's only just enough for a 2tph fast service to Portsmouth with minimal turn around times (8-9 minutes each end) and no spares to cover for failures and maintenance.

I'm sure 4 driving luggage vans sitting around doing nothing seems wasteful given their age, but 64 vehicles sitting around doing nothing is far more wasteful.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still better than the crackpot scheme of inserting them into 458s and letting the driving carriages go to waste.

From what I remember the suggested scheme doesn't have ALL the driving cars wasted, as it produces some extra units, I think 6 were mentioned?

 

[DjU]

From what I remember the suggested scheme doesn't have ALL the driving cars wasted, as it produces some extra units, I think 6 were mentioned?

I think the original plan was

Extend 24 of the 458 by one car = 24 cars
Create 6 x 5 car units out of the remains = 30 cars
(This implies they will convert half the luggage Vans)

Whether the re-submitted plan is the same I don't know.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the original plan was

Extend 24 of the 458 by one car = 24 cars
Create 6 x 5 car units out of the remains = 30 cars
(This implies they will convert half the luggage Vans)

Whether the re-submitted plan is the same I don't know.

That sounds familiar - with 6 x 4 car left over to dedicate to the Ascot-Guildford service?

I think it was also suggested somewhere (Modern Railways probably?) that the cabs of all the eventual units would be modified with Desiro/Electrostar style gangways, to allow easier splitting and joining in service. I wonder if that is still on the cards?

 

[HSTEd]

Could they not keep the shortened sets that contain luggage vans on Gatwick services or would the loiter time at Gatwick station be too short for this?

 

[Smudger105e]

The problem is that the GatEx used to use platforms 1 & 2 at Gatwick, which is the side of the station opposite to the fast lines, meaning a cross over north of the station, which was 8 crossing movements per hour when running a 15 minute service, which caused problems with all the other services using the slow lines and the fast lines.....

 

[gnolife]

Could the 460s be ACified and move to Manchester for the Airport and Crewe via Airport trains?

 

[GodAtum]

Who paid for the 460s originally? I hope they keep the seating layout, the 1st class seats were great as they are huge and spacious, a lot better then even on an HST.

 

[asylumxl]

The premium airport market is declining with most people happy to take as ordinary train as its cheaper.

Surely there is a simple solution to that. As has been discussed before on here,, why not just allow Southern only tickets on the Gatwick Express?

Problem solved.