Gatwick Express Industrial Relations

[Surreytraveller]

I notice the 0530 Victoria to Gatwick Airport ran this morning, anyone know the formation?

It wasn't a 12 car 387!

 

[Skimble19]

I would imagine the next 12 car attempt will be Monday.. I hope the driver sticks to their guns and refuses to take it, they will have the full support of all front line colleagues.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think ASLEF is making mountains out of molehills here! 12x387 is only 12m longer than 10x442, and at all GX stations it is dispatched by staff so the effect of 10 extra metres. Lets remember this is the Brighton Mainline, where most of the route runs through urban areas and most stations are within easy reach of each other. Also 12x387 run safely every day on Thameslink.

However if DOO was proposed in the middle of Norfolk for example I would support ASLEF/RMT.

In my opinion DOO should be used on metro and commuter services, where busy stations have dispatch staff, but not on (rural) regional or intercity services.

 

[Antman]

As a passenger I am forever glad that the main company that I use, SWT, has guards on all services and will not run a train without one, I cannot believe that a mode of transport that a lot of the time runs in the middle of nowhere, can't stop instantly when it sees an obstruction (animals on the line being one, or something some oik has placed/dropped on the track), and that some people/companies believe that it is sensible to not have someone extra that is safety trained and has the basic route knowledge to help when there is an emergency.

Would a passenger know what to do if the driver was incapacitated and there was no phone signal to call for assistance? And would they even be able to tell them where they were?

Also can the driver provide passengers advice/help if they need it during their journey and should they be distracted from their main and safety critical job of driving the train.

There are many ways to save money on the railways but getting rid of guards is definitely not it and never will be.

I'd have to say that as a passenger I rarely give a thought about whether there is a guard onboard and I've never felt in anyway unsafe on a DOO service.

 

[Starmill]

If passengers are unsafe on DOO services, why are they permitted to continue?

I prefer a second member of staff onboard every train, though, primarily because if I am going to be ripped off hugely on most of my journeys I would like everyone else to pay for a ticket too and because if I have a problem or need some help I would like to have someone to ask. Travelling between unstaffed stations on an unstaffed train is not really my idea of what the modern railway should be offering, and its less than I expect given how much I pay for a ticket.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I think ASLEF is making mountains out of molehills here! 12x387 is only 12m longer than 10x442, and at all GX stations it is dispatched by staff so the effect of 10 extra metres. Lets remember this is the Brighton Mainline, where most of the route runs through urban areas and most stations are within easy reach of each other. Also 12x387 run safely every day on Thameslink.

However if DOO was proposed in the middle of Norfolk for example I would support ASLEF/RMT.

In my opinion DOO should be used on metro and commuter services, where busy stations have dispatch staff, but not on (rural) regional or intercity services.

12m is 12m and if there's an agreement "in principal" of a limit of 10 coaches or xxx mtrs in length, then that's the agreement. If you breach the agreement without consent, then you can only expect trouble either locally, at company level or legally.

If you breach a contract with a large company or bank etc, you end up in legal trouble. The same applies here. If they've breached an agreement without asking or negotiating then you get this situation, which almost undoubtedly will end in tears and with a lot of ill feeling and lack of cooperation on both sides.

No one wins in strikes either.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think ASLEF is making mountains out of molehills here! 12x387 is only 12m longer than 10x442, and at all GX stations it is dispatched by staff so the effect of 10 extra metres. Lets remember this is the Brighton Mainline, where most of the route runs through urban areas and most stations are within easy reach of each other. Also 12x387 run safely every day on Thameslink.

However if DOO was proposed in the middle of Norfolk for example I would support ASLEF/RMT.

In my opinion DOO should be used on metro and commuter services, where busy stations have dispatch staff, but not on (rural) regional or intercity services.

Also given the Electrostars come fitted with in cab DOO monitors which are in my opinion utterly awful, how long will it be until those dispatchers are long gone as well? You'd rather DOO some of the busiest services with the highest risk?

Beyond the safety issues it's like those commenters on here who are also fare paying passengers enjoy the thought of paying the same for less while the company saves and makes money big time! Very strange.

It also amazes me how many people refuse to believe there is danger. It's almost as if they've never gone to bed and been kept awake thinking 'what if' when on their train back home something nearly went extremely wrong at the PTI.

 

[TheEdge]

A few points. DOO will not see ticket prices go down because of cost savings. The capital cost will write of savings to start with and any savings that do appear will find their way right to the DfT and the TOCs. Just like how ticket prices have dropped as offices are closed and you print your own or use e-tickets and smartcards, oh, wait...

The railways have, in the UK, spent 200 years trying to mitigate the dangers of travelling. Its why we have one of the safest rail networks in the world. Yes, developments and automation have seen some jobs go away over the years, firemen, secondmen and conductors (in the original sense) to name a few. But now we are facing a situation where trains are going to be deliberately become more dangerous. There are no incidents because they are stopped before they happen. On a daily basis trains are stopped by guards when someone runs up and gets against the train, or when someone gets trapped in the door. DOO looses that, the moment the driver looses sight of mirrors or screens anything can happen. There is a fairly recent one from GWR land where someone was dragged and injured on a DOO service.

It will happen, one day a person or people will die, it will have been avoidable, but they will die. People will self evacuate onto a third rail, someone will be dragged under a train, people will end up in front of a train. To the people in this thread who like to pretend there isn't an issue hope it isn't you or someone you care about who is that incident.

 

[BRblue]

A few points. DOO will not see ticket prices go down because of cost savings. The capital cost will write of savings to start with and any savings that do appear will find their way right to the DfT and the TOCs. Just like how ticket prices have dropped as offices are closed and you print your own or use e-tickets and smartcards, oh, wait...

The railways have, in the UK, spent 200 years trying to mitigate the dangers of travelling. Its why we have one of the safest rail networks in the world. Yes, developments and automation have seen some jobs go away over the years, firemen, secondmen and conductors (in the original sense) to name a few. But now we are facing a situation where trains are going to be deliberately become more dangerous. There are no incidents because they are stopped before they happen. On a daily basis trains are stopped by guards when someone runs up and gets against the train, or when someone gets trapped in the door. DOO looses that, the moment the driver looses sight of mirrors or screens anything can happen. There is a fairly recent one from GWR land where someone was dragged and injured on a DOO service.

It will happen, one day a person or people will die, it will have been avoidable, but they will die. People will self evacuate onto a third rail, someone will be dragged under a train, people will end up in front of a train. To the people in this thread who like to pretend there isn't an issue hope it isn't you or someone you care about who is that incident.

This 100%.

 

[The Ham]

Sadly I suspect whomever gets the South Western franchise next time will have their hand forced by DafT to do away with guards.

Maybe, but given that the SWT franchise is "profitable" for the DfT anyway, any increase is going to be fairly small and so probably wouldn't be the risk in lost tickets as fare dodging increases.

There are quite a few stations with no staff for much of the day, some with two entrances. Is it better to have staff at each station all day or is it better to have staff on trains all day? I would suggest the latter, as 4 staff (guards) can cover all the stations on a service which takes an hour end to end on a half hour frequency, yet the same number of staff could only cover 4 stations (maybe a few more if they are being paid less, but then they could need more than one per station).

 

[jon0844]

People will of course self evacuate even with staff on a train. Even one guard can't realistically police 12 cars, especially if the train is rammed.

Communicating with passengers will obviously help though, but can't modern trains have the PA system operated remotely too?

I think with modern technology, such as screens and better sensors (perhaps capacitive sensors to detect someone touching the side of a train, or other technology to detect people in addition to eyeballs) drivers on the newest stock should be able to open and close doors.

But I also like staff on trains, for customer service, security, first aid and other safety duties. They don't however need to check doors, unless there's some fault. They'd still require a fair salary for the safety training they would have and need to refresh.

Like keeping stations staffed, we should be seeking to have more staff on trains IMO. There would be a cost, sure, but I am sure that it wouldn't be too considerable if rail usage rises as more people feel safe.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[380101]

I think ASLEF is making mountains out of molehills here! 12x387 is only 12m longer than 10x442, and at all GX stations it is dispatched by staff so the effect of 10 extra metres. Lets remember this is the Brighton Mainline, where most of the route runs through urban areas and most stations are within easy reach of each other. Also 12x387 run safely every day on Thameslink.

However if DOO was proposed in the middle of Norfolk for example I would support ASLEF/RMT.

In my opinion DOO should be used on metro and commuter services, where busy stations have dispatch staff, but not on (rural) regional or intercity services.

The overall length of the train is irrelevant here. It's the fact 12 coaches come with 4 extra sets of doors to monitor on in cab screens the size of your average pc monitor! I challenge anyone to be 100% confident in watching 24 sets of doors on a busy platform on in cab monitors and be happy to close the doors and take power and move off. It's hard enough doing it with 7 coaches, so I can imagine it is a nightmare with 12! Any DOO driver that says otherwise is just hoping for the best. 12 coaches really need a guard and platform dispatchers for busy platforms. Either that or external speakers so the driver can tell people to beat it after the doors have closed and locked.

And as has already stated in numerous previous posts, Aslef don't have an agreement in place with the TOC for their drivers to operate 12 car DOO trains on GatEx.

I look forward to seeing how far GTR will take this before they change their tune. Safety must be first, not passenger experiences!

 

[DelayRepay]

I simply can't understand passengers, on this forum, who are paying huge amounts for a ticket, to be advocating a less safe system, with fewer staff. This is not BR days when the network was in decline. Do any of you go on aviation forums, suggesting one pilot per shorthaul flight, and one cabin crew per longhaul flight ?

I am but a passenger, on the part of GTR that is already DOO. I do wish that there was a guard on board. ASLEF and the RMT have my full support in this matter, despite the inconvenience it could cause me.

As a passenger I am forever glad that the main company that I use, SWT, has guards on all services and will not run a train without one, I cannot believe that a mode of transport that a lot of the time runs in the middle of nowhere, can't stop instantly when it sees an obstruction (animals on the line being one, or something some oik has placed/dropped on the track), and that some people/companies believe that it is sensible to not have someone extra that is safety trained and has the basic route knowledge to help when there is an emergency.

Indeed. It seems odd that other venues and work places have minimum staffing levels and requirements for things like first aiders and fire wardens - yet it is ok to have up to 1,000 people on a train with nobody who can assist.

Would a passenger know what to do if the driver was incapacitated and there was no phone signal to call for assistance? And would they even be able to tell them where they were?

I was on a train which was involved in a minor incident. It hit a shopping trolley that some vandals had placed on the line. This was a DOO service and I was sat in the first coach. For the first couple of minutes until I heard the driver talking on the radio, it was quite frightening. I had no idea what had happened, if the driver was ok, if the train was safe or who to call for help. I wondered if trains on adjacent lines were in danger.

Fortunately the driver was ok, and was able to go about his duties. This could have been much more serious.

I was also on a train that was involved in a "one under". On that occasion it fell to an off-duty member of staff from another TOC to support the driver in dealing with the situation and reassure passengers until help arrived.

So I wish the GTR staff well. I think they will need it over the coming months.

 

[Agent_c]

If passengers are unsafe on DOO services, why are they permitted to continue?

You fight the battles you can win, not the ones you wish you could win.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People will of course self evacuate even with staff on a train. Even one guard can't realistically police 12 cars, especially if the train is rammed.

Will they do so and all move to a safe place, or will they still be in danger? Who knows.

Communicating with passengers will obviously help though, but can't modern trains have the PA system operated remotely too?

Presuming the driver is in a fit state to do so...

 

[BRblue]

I am but a passenger, on the part of GTR that is already DOO. I do wish that there was a guard on board. ASLEF and the RMT have my full support in this matter, despite the inconvenience it could cause me.



Indeed. It seems odd that other venues and work places have minimum staffing levels and requirements for things like first aiders and fire wardens - yet it is ok to have up to 1,000 people on a train with nobody who can assist.



I was on a train which was involved in a minor incident. It hit a shopping trolley that some vandals had placed on the line. This was a DOO service and I was sat in the first coach. For the first couple of minutes until I heard the driver talking on the radio, it was quite frightening. I had no idea what had happened, if the driver was ok, if the train was safe or who to call for help. I wondered if trains on adjacent lines were in danger.

Fortunately the driver was ok, and was able to go about his duties. This could have been much more serious.

I was also on a train that was involved in a "one under". On that occasion it fell to an off-duty member of staff from another TOC to support the driver in dealing with the situation and reassure passengers until help arrived.

So I wish the GTR staff well. I think they will need it over the coming months.

A voice of reason and this is exactly what I was alluding to earlier in the thread.

 

[jon0844]

My point was that GSM-R has the facility to broadcast to a whole train does it not? So if the driver can't respond, passengers can still be given messages.

Of course it's not the same thing as staff on a train, but it's better than nothing at all.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[TheEdge]

People will of course self evacuate even with staff on a train. Even one guard can't realistically police 12 cars, especially if the train is rammed.

But they can control it. They can get traffic stopped. They can keep people in a position of safety once they are off rather than headless chickens all over the place.

Communicating with passengers will obviously help though, but can't modern trains have the PA system operated remotely too?

Apparently via GSM-R, although this seems to be another "reason" trotted out the guards are not needed. Not that I've ever seen it done. Although GSM-R can be skittish enough at time and go down at the worst moment...

I think with modern technology, such as screens and better sensors (perhaps capacitive sensors to detect someone touching the side of a train, or other technology to detect people in addition to eyeballs) drivers on the newest stock should be able to open and close doors.

Another cost saving tech solution. The Breckland Line has had all hell from the all singing all dancing crossings saving money on old boxes. Those brilliant sensors either stop working or for a while were being set off by such dangerous obstructions as rain, snow, leaves and dirt. And still are.

But I also like staff on trains, for customer service, security, first aid and other safety duties. They don't however need to check doors, unless there's some fault. They'd still require a fair salary for the safety training they would have and need to refresh.

Yes, we have those staff, they are called guards. They are the role who are having their most safety critical role taken from them to save money.

Like keeping stations staffed, we should be seeking to have more staff on trains IMO. There would be a cost, sure, but I am sure that it wouldn't be too considerable if rail usage rises as more people feel safe.

Hahahahahaha no. Don't kid yourself, displaced staff promised new customer service positions will very quickly become redundant staff.

 

[DelayRepay]

My point was that GSM-R has the facility to broadcast to a whole train does it not? So if the driver can't respond, passengers can still be given messages.

Of course it's not the same thing as staff on a train, but it's better than nothing at all.

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That assumes someone at the other end of the GSM-R realises something is wrong and knows what to announce. In the scenario I posted (train hit something), if the driver had been incapacitated, I assume that at some point the signaller would have tried to contact the driver. When he receives no response what would he announce? He wouldn't know what had happened, what condition the train was in, how many people were on board or if anyone was injured. I assume the first announcement would be "could someone please phone me and tell me what's happened" which wouldn't do much in the way of reassurance!

 

[jon0844]

I assume there's a procedure for it.

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[infobleep]

The problem with driver closing the doors is, even with in cab CCTV they don't have a great view, and once one the move should be looking at the road ahead. I've seen doors gain interlock with things sticking out of them, like a brolly. Driver would not have spotted this. I've saved lives by halting a train after we move when someone on the platform does something silly. Driver by then has no CCTV, and is driving the train. During dispatch I can see the whole train and all goings on, in fine 3D colour. (I'm tested for this). I've seen the internal reports on safety and the DOO trains are just one after another. But it's all, driver need more coaching. No looking at the big picture. I know you want us to be going through the train and checking first class, and I'm fine with that, we do what we can, when we can and you pay the extra, but a few weeks ago, on your line, at Coulsdon South , me being there, doing dispatch and closing and being in control of closing the doors helped a passenger out of a nasty situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know, checking the train, making sure everyone is ok, fixing faults, dealing with issues, and if the train comes to a messy halt, giving you info and helping sort things out.

I was passing on a DOO TL train the other day. There was no PIS and the driver said nothing. Any lost/confused punters on that train must be thinking , 'what'

I once missed my stop due to no PIS or announcements. Guard let me double back. It was my fault though for bit paying attending when we got into the station.

So you have to be able to see in 3D to be q guard? I only ask because I see in 2D.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess we will know as soon as the next 12 car is scheduled to run

Is it possible that the next person to take a 12 car train isn't in a union or are nearly all drivers members of a union?

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[TheEdge]

So you have to be able to see in 3D to be q guard? I only ask because I see in 2D.

Thats impressive, how do you manage that, given reality and the universe exists in 3 dimensions?

 

[Llanigraham]

My point was that GSM-R has the facility to broadcast to a whole train does it not? So if the driver can't respond, passengers can still be given messages.

Of course it's not the same thing as staff on a train, but it's better than nothing at all.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Only if the signaller knows what is going on!!

Also see my response below!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it possible that the next person to take a 12 car train isn't in a union or are nearly all drivers members of a union?

My understanding is that vast majority are in ASLEF and of the remainder the vast majority are in the RMT. It's a very very small minority that aren't in a Union at all (and I never quite understood why when you can get the protection of being in either one of two, relatively, powerful Unions).

 

[infobleep]

No, I am quite happy with a guard being on the train, it was more a curiosity. In fact, I would argue that more train companies should follow the lead of SWT and have guards "patrolling" through the trains.

The main point of my long post was more to with the fact that there is more and more automation and self service. As such there could come a point where the general public, having lost many previously available jobs to them, could be less supportive of what could (not that I am saying that it is) be perceived as job protection by railway staff.

Not so much patrolling through the 455/456 trains though. It's to do with the way trains are dispatched I think.

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[Llanigraham]

I assume there's a procedure for it.

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Yes there is, but it won't be quick and it will be very one sided, as we (signallers) won't be getting any answers.

And all this presumes that the GSM-R hasn't been tripped out, as has happened!

 

[infobleep]

But i bet most drivers would prefer there was one

Most drivers probably don't care. Bit like they don't care much for indicating at roundabouts.

Not saying trains shouldn't have guards through. They should be safe, even if motorists are not at roundabouts.

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[Philip Phlopp]

My point was that GSM-R has the facility to broadcast to a whole train does it not? So if the driver can't respond, passengers can still be given messages.

Of course it's not the same thing as staff on a train, but it's better than nothing at all.

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You are talking about the same GSM-R radios which aren't shockproof and which won't normally have been specified with a back-up battery pack ?

If the GSM-R radio hasn't shaken its internals apart and switched off, and if the unit is in an area with acceptable reception, then it's possible to give messages via the GSM-R set to the passengers.

The GSM-R radio sets are not sufficiently reliable to be used in this manner though, no matter what Siemens, Network Rail, RAIB and ORR say.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I think that derailment in Kent involving cattle proved that. The radio went down.

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of curiosity how 'tough', for lack of a better word, were the older systems like CSR and NRN in comparison to the modern GSMR?

 

[Agent_c]

My point was that GSM-R has the facility to broadcast to a whole train does it not? So if the driver can't respond, passengers can still be given messages.

Of course it's not the same thing as staff on a train, but it's better than nothing at all.

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So now we're banking on there not being a power failure, or some sort of other communications problem as part of the issue?