Gatwick Express "every 15 minutes"

[All Line Rover]

On the Gatwick Express website and - particularly - on the main departure board at Victoria station, the claim is made that Gatwick Express runs "every 15 minutes".

However, it does not. For instance, today (Friday 18th November 2016) there are departures at 05:45, 06:00 and 06:15, and at 22:45, 23:00, 23:15, 23:30 and 23:45, but between 06:15 and 22:45 there are no departures at:

• 06:30
• 07:15
• 09:00
• 09:30
• 11:00
• 11:30
• 13:30
• 14:00
• 16:00
• 16:30
• 19:00
• 19:30
• 20:00
• 20:30
• 22:00
• 22:30

This is hardly a small list. Gatwick Express does not, therefore, operate a 15 minute frequency. Rather, it operates a 30 minute frequency, with additional departures thrown in at times to create random 15 minute intervals.

If we take the example of a customer wishing to travel on the 10:45 Gatwick Express branded departure from London Victoria, this has an arrival time in Gatwick Airport of 11:18 (a journey time of 33 minutes). However, this train is in fact overtaken, as the 10:47 Southern branded departure also has an arrival time in Gatwick Airport of 11:18 (therefore, a journey time of 31 minutes). And the 10:47 calls at Clapham Junction, enabling passengers living south or west of London to benefit from an even shorter journey.

After the 10:45, the next Gatwick Express branded departure is not until 11:15. Again, it is overtaken: its arrival time of 11:48 (a journey time off 33 minutes) is matched by the later 11:17 Southern branded departure (with a journey time of 31 minutes).

Furthermore, there is an 11:06 Southern branded departure to Gatwick Airport, with an arrival time of 11:38 (a journey time of 32 minutes). Its journey time is therefore shorter than the Gatwick Express departures either side.

Rinse and repeat with the absence of an 11:30 Gatwick Express departure.

The National Rail Enquiries website does not display the 10:45 or 11:15 Gatwick Express branded departures (due to their being overtaken) unless one's departure time is specified to be exactly 10:45 or 11:15 respectively. If searching for tickets on the Southern website, both the 10:45 and 11:15 departures are listed, but accompanied by the warning "This train will be overtaken by a later service" in red. But if searching on the Gatwick Express website, only the 10:45 and 11:15 departures are listed, and the warning displayed on the Southern website is not visible (despite it being the same booking engine).

Bearing in mind that Gatwick Express services are advertised at Victoria station as being the most suitable way to get to Gatwick Airport (with, presumably, the same applying for the reverse direction at Gatwick Airport station) and the Gatwick Express website says on its homepage that Gatwick Express is "perfect... if you’re looking to start your London adventure as soon as possible (and yes, Gatwick Express also lacks a genuine 15 minute frequency in the Gatwick to London direction), why, if the Lord Chancellor & Secretary of State for Justice (Elizabeth Truss :roll considers that Britain importing two thirds of its cheese is a disgrace, is she not investigating why a private company, heavily regulated by the state, that is taking in millions of pounds in revenue from the public, is being allowed to engage in false advertising on a massive scale?

 

[furlong]

Perhaps they should talk to Heathrow Express?

The Heathrow Express can no longer claim it runs “every 15 minutes” after a complaint.

Stansted and Gatwick have also previously had complaints against them upheld (relating to journey times).

 

[Please Explain]

Don't bother wasting your time and money with Gatwick depress..

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=138127

Been a well rehearsed scam since 1984...

 

[GatwickDepress]

Don't bother wasting your time and money with Gatwick depress..

Aye, just ask my girlfriend.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is definitely one for the ASA.

 

[grumblingalong]

Aye, just ask my girlfriend.

 

[charley_17/7]

They could just put 'up to' in very small letters preceding it, like retailers do for sales.

 

[IKB]

If we take the example of a customer wishing to travel on the 10:45 Gatwick Express branded departure from London Victoria, this has an arrival time in Gatwick Airport of 11:18 (a journey time of 33 minutes). However, this train is in fact overtaken, as the 10:47 Southern branded departure also has an arrival time in Gatwick Airport of 11:18 (therefore, a journey time of 31 minutes). And the 10:47 calls at Clapham Junction, enabling passengers living south or west of London to benefit from an even shorter journey.

After the 10:45, the next Gatwick Express branded departure is not until 11:15. Again, it is overtaken: its arrival time of 11:48 (a journey time off 33 minutes) is matched by the later 11:17 Southern branded departure (with a journey time of 31 minutes).

A number of Gatwick trains have been "temporarily" cancelled during the leaf fall period to account for extended journey times on other services. If you did the same search in the new year some of those journeys on your list are likely to be reinstated.

Regardless of what the timetable says, a Gatwick leaving Victoria at 1045 (non-stop) won't be "overtaken" (to use your words) by the 1047 Southern departure (calling at Clapham and East Croydon). I suspect there is some recovery time added into the Gatwick schedule. If the Gatwick departs first it will get there first.

The GE does of course take the pressure of airport travellers and suitcases off of existing crowded commuter services.

I'll leave the politics/ethics of the advertising and pricing structure for others to comment.

 

[Deepgreen]

A number of Gatwick trains have been "temporarily" cancelled during the leaf fall period to account for extended journey times on other services. If you did the same search in the new year some of those journeys on your list are likely to be reinstated.

Regardless of what the timetable says, a Gatwick leaving Victoria at 1045 (non-stop) won't be "overtaken" (to use your words) by the 1047 Southern departure (calling at Clapham and East Croydon). I suspect there is some recovery time added into the Gatwick schedule. If the Gatwick departs first it will get there first.

The GE does of course take the pressure of airport travellers and suitcases off of existing crowded commuter services.

I'll leave the politics/ethics of the advertising and pricing structure for others to comment.

Only to an extent - very many choose to avoid the frequently-pointless (for the enhanced fare) 'premium' service. With Southern's dogged determination to continue with its abysmal information provision regarding their trains which go via Gatwick - e.g. "This train divides en route at Redhill. Front 4 coaches for Three Bridges, rear 4 for Reigate", with not a mention of Gatwick at all, the corporate mis-marketing will continue. I have lost count of the number of times I have witnessed passengers wanting Gatwick on a 'Redhill splitter' not understanding where in the train they need to be for want of the simple and obviously-needed inclusion of 'via Gatwick Airport' in the announcements and scrolling displays.

It's blatant mis-guided marketing at the expense of proper information - those passengers who have already chosen to travel by a green rather than a red train are no longer available for revenue enhancement, so just give them the information they need!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A number of Gatwick trains have been "temporarily" cancelled during the leaf fall period to account for extended journey times on other services. If you did the same search in the new year some of those journeys on your list are likely to be reinstated.

Regardless of what the timetable says, a Gatwick leaving Victoria at 1045 (non-stop) won't be "overtaken" (to use your words) by the 1047 Southern departure (calling at Clapham and East Croydon). I suspect there is some recovery time added into the Gatwick schedule. If the Gatwick departs first it will get there first.

The GE does of course take the pressure of airport travellers and suitcases off of existing crowded commuter services.

I'll leave the politics/ethics of the advertising and pricing structure for others to comment.

Well, that's helpful to passengers isn't it!

 

[IKB]

Well, that's helpful to passengers isn't it!

Did I say it was helpful to passengers? I was commentating on the particular timetabling point made. I did not offer an opinion on the ethics of the set up/advertising/info.

 

[Deepgreen]

Did I say it was helpful to passengers? I was commentating on the particular timetabling point made. I did not offer an opinion on the ethics of the set up/advertising/info.

No, indeed - my remark wasn't aimed at you; rather, it was a comment on the efficacy of the timetable. Apologies for any perceived aggression.

 

[daikilo]

A number of Gatwick trains have been "temporarily" cancelled during the leaf fall period to account for extended journey times on other services. If you did the same search in the new year some of those journeys on your list are likely to be reinstated.

Leaf-fall or lack of crews or "because the only alternative is Southern and that is us also"?

 

[HowardGWR]

I totally agree with Deepgreen. Not being familiar with SN timetables, I too, on our first journeys to Gatwick changing at Clapham Jcn, was totally confused and worried that I was in the wrong section. I had no idea whether the place they said the train would divide, was north or south of Gatwick. It's often no good asking other pax, as they are either out to the world, or have never been south of Croydon anyway, in my experience.

If Clapham announcers made it clear, it would set your mind at rest and it should be repeated on the train. When I found out I was enraged at such cavalier treatment of paying customers, many of whom are infrequent travellers and who you would hope the railways would like to see make more journeys by rail.

 

[yorkie]

...But if searching on the Gatwick Express website, only the 10:45 and 11:15 departures are listed,...

Yes, the intention is that unsuspecting tourists assume that "Express" means 'fast' and therefore only use the company's Gatwick Express branded website, and therefore only think they should take those trains.

As a result, the passenger arrives later but the company gains as the customer pays a higher fare (of £19.80 vs £8, using Oyster/Contactless).

Bearing in mind that Gatwick Express services are advertised at Victoria station as being the most suitable way to get to Gatwick Airport ...

Absolutely, and to reinforce this, the company recently removed Gatwick Airport from the "Next fastest train to:" board, which has a dedicated Gatwick board to the left of it, which only shows the company's often-slower trains which are branded "Express". The company's faster, more frequent "Southern" branded services are not shown on that board.

It's all carefully designed to mislead people into paying more money for slower journeys.

A good time to see this in action is 1743. Passengers are told to wait until the slow 1800 departure (which doesn't arrive into Gatwick until 1836, but it's very rarely on time), and no suggestion is made to take the faster 1747 or 1757 services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.... a Gatwick leaving Victoria at 1045 (non-stop) won't be "overtaken" (to use your words) ....

Not originally his words; the company uses those words on their "Southern" branded website.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The GE does of course take the pressure of airport travellers and suitcases off of existing crowded commuter services.

Turn up at Victoria around 1743 and see if airport travellers are best waiting for the 1800. I think you will find that, in addition to experiencing a slower journey, the journey is also rather uncomfortably busy.

As for the suitcases, I suggest you compare the luggage space on the company's '700' series trains with the '387s'... but if anyone wants to explore that in any more detail I suggest creating a new thread in Traction & Rolling stock as it's getting off-topic.

 

[trainmania100]

It looks like false advertising. I thought they ran every half an hour

 

[yorkie]

It looks like false advertising.

It is. The ASA don't seem too bothered but if enough people complain, they might do something.

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain/Online-Form/Step1.aspx

You could mention GTR have placed posters at stations and statements on their website misleading people into believing the trains are every 15 minutes and take 30 minutes, but at the times most people travel the trains are actually booked to take 33-40 minutes, and for much of the day the booked frequency is not as advertised, and that's before the inevitable last-moment cancellations that occur most days.

I thought they ran every half an hour

You're lucky if they run that often some days

 

[Lockwood]

Surely a train every half hour in each direction would mean that at a point along the line would see four trains an hour, so from a certain point of view that statement is correct.

 

[IKB]

Turn up at Victoria around 1743 and see if airport travellers are best waiting for the 1800. I think you will find that, in addition to experiencing a slower journey, the journey is also rather uncomfortably busy.

As for the suitcases, I suggest you compare the luggage space on the company's '700' series trains with the '387s'... but if anyone wants to explore that in any more detail I suggest creating a new thread in Traction & Rolling stock as it's getting off-topic.

I think you will find that I witness this on a daily basis! GE helps to relieve pressure at some times of the day on some services. Not all, but some. I agree with some of the other points that you made re the promotion aspects.

 

[Clip]

Surely a train every half hour in each direction would mean that at a point along the line would see four trains an hour, so from a certain point of view that statement is correct.

Thats what I thought too and I cant see anything on their website that makes the claim that it is solely for departures from Victoria. And to be honest being pedantic about 3 -4 minutes extra really is scraping the barrel to knock them due to the hatred of GTR by some on here.

 

[3141]

The GE does of course take the pressure of airport travellers and suitcases off of existing crowded commuter services.

I'll leave the politics/ethics of the advertising and pricing structure for others to comment.

It only "takes the pressure off" for journeys starting or finishing at Victoria. If I go to Gatwick I change at Clapham Junction from SWT and therefore have to put pressure on a Southern service. It puts some pressure on me, too!

To be fair to Southern, not that many want to be these days, the pricing structure is inherited from when GatEx was a separate company, and perhaps even from British Rail.

 

[talldave]

Surely a train every half hour in each direction would mean that at a point along the line would see four trains an hour, so from a certain point of view that statement is correct.

You work in GTR's marketing department don't you?!

 

[al78]

Surely a train every half hour in each direction would mean that at a point along the line would see four trains an hour, so from a certain point of view that statement is correct.

http://skill.appstutor.net/how-to-win-every-argument/a33.html

 

[bb21]

It looks like false advertising. I thought they ran every half an hour

I would agree.

If leaf-fall means the cancellation of some services, not delivering "a service every 15 minutes" then they should not be advertising that. Once those daytime services are reinstated, they can advertise as such again.

I won't bother overly with evening departures as they will most likely have a clause somewhere stating that it only applies between 0700 and 1900 Mondays to Fridays only or such like.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely a train every half hour in each direction would mean that at a point along the line would see four trains an hour, so from a certain point of view that statement is correct.

Not at Victoria where it is prominently displayed.

And no, two trains an hour in each direction does not count as "four trains an hour" by any sane interpretation.

 

[tbtc]

A number of Gatwick trains have been "temporarily" cancelled during the leaf fall period to account for extended journey times on other services. If you did the same search in the new year some of those journeys on your list are likely to be reinstated

This seems to be worth repeating.

Obviously a lot of enthusiasts have a problem with Gatwick Express (is it worth paying the premium... is it worth having a dedicated Airport service... is the stock suitable... should it be integrated with other services... should the fares be better explained... should TSGN be allowed to treat Gatwick Express as different to Southern... maybe add in something sarcastic about the use of the word "Express"...), but that's a separate argument.

The question that the OP raised boils down to "should the TOC be forced to change their advertising when there are temporary service alterations".

When a local bus route in these parts was downgraded from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to accommodate roadworks, I didn't expect the bus company to take down the "every ten minutes" branding from the side of their vehicles - but I did expect them to update the timetables. I similarly wouldn't expect them to take the branding down on days when some bus drivers were on strike.

Dunno. Maybe Gatwick Express should change their adverts for the duration of Leaf Fall Season, maybe they shouldn't. But 95% of the argument on here seems to be relating to chips on shoulders re wider issues with Gatwick Express - I'm not saying I'm a fan of the current set up and I think that "Airport" passengers on some lines seem to count for more than "normal" passengers - but those kind of issues should really be debated in a different thread.

 

[Starmill]

When a local bus route in these parts was downgraded from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to accommodate roadworks, I didn't expect the bus company to take down the "every ten minutes" branding from the side of their vehicles - but I did expect them to update the timetables. I similarly wouldn't expect them to take the branding down on days when some bus drivers were on strike.

Dunno. Maybe Gatwick Express should change their adverts for the duration of Leaf Fall Season, maybe they shouldn't. But 95% of the argument on here seems to be relating to chips on shoulders re wider issues with Gatwick Express - I'm not saying I'm a fan of the current set up and I think that "Airport" passengers on some lines seem to count for more than "normal" passengers - but those kind of issues should really be debated in a different thread.

In reality Gatwick Express has not been booked to run 'every 15 minutes' since July though. I think the aim is to restore the full service of 'every 15 minutes' in January. So they have not been able to make this claim for almost 6 months, and yet they have gone on making it. Where does one draw the line? And the daily cancellations (which are not trifling) are on top of this.

 

[All Line Rover]

A bus company does not justify the sale of its tickets on the basis that its buses run every 10 minutes rather than every 12 minutes.

Gatwick Express does justify the sale of its tickets on the basis that its trains run every 15 minutes and are not overtaken by other services. "Fast and frequent" is the primary, if not the only, reason for using their services.

 

[yorkie]

Obviously a lot of enthusiasts have a problem with Gatwick Express (is it worth paying the premium... is it worth having a dedicated Airport service... is the stock suitable... should it be integrated with other services... should the fares be better explained... should TSGN be allowed to treat Gatwick Express as different to Southern... maybe add in something sarcastic about the use of the word "Express"...), but that's a separate argument.

I disagree. There's no need to have a go at enthusiasts. The facts are that the train company (GTR) are misleading passengers massively and have been doing so for a long time.

The question that the OP raised boils down to "should the TOC be forced to change their advertising when there are temporary service alterations".

Temporary?! When was the last time there were consistently GX branded trains running at the advertised frequency and journey time?

When a local bus route in these parts was downgraded from every ten minutes to every twelve minutes to accommodate roadworks, I didn't expect the bus company to take down the "every ten minutes" branding from the side of their vehicles - but I did expect them to update the timetables. I similarly wouldn't expect them to take the branding down on days when some bus drivers were on strike.

If we have to have analogies, then as I often say, the analogies have to be correct. This one is totally wrong.

An appropriate analogy would be a bus company running buses taking 31-33 minutes at less than half the fare of a bus advertised to take 30 minutes, but would often be booked to take longer than that. The frequency of the "30 minute" bus would be advertised as every 15minutes but over a period of many many months various excuses would be rolled out, including driver shortages, for failing to actually run the advertised service. At the bus terminal, all passengers heading for the destination would be told to take the less frequent bus costing over twice the fare.

I doubt there is a bus company doing that, so there is no appropriate analogy to what GTR are doing!

Dunno. Maybe Gatwick Express should change their adverts for the duration of Leaf Fall Season, maybe they shouldn't.

Their adverts have been wrong for a very long time, and leaf fall is just the latest excuse.

But 95% of the argument on here seems to be relating to chips on shoulders re wider issues with Gatwick Express - I'm not saying I'm a fan of the current set up and I think that "Airport" passengers on some lines seem to count for more than "normal" passengers - but those kind of issues should really be debated in a different thread.

Ah, I see what your agenda is. Well, that's your choice, but most passengers are utterly fed up with the company's misleading practices, such as false claims over frequency, and they have every right to be fed up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A bus company does not justify the sale of its tickets on the basis that its buses run every 10 minutes rather than every 12 minutes.

Gatwick Express does justify the sale of its tickets on the basis that its trains run every 15 minutes and are not overtaken by other services. "Fast and frequent" is the primary, if not the only, reason for using their services.

Indeed. The analogy is absurd and passengers are being deliberately mislead.

I find it disturbing that some people want to defend the indefensible and have a pop at people who stand up for passenger rights, but that's their loss. In fact, the more the anti-passenger brigade try to stop me, the more I will defy them and I will continue to fight for what's right!

 

[All Line Rover]

As you said above, Yorkie, the luggage space on Gatwick Express branded rolling stock is inadequate; and, as I found out recently, the first class accommodation is inferior to that on most Southern branded rolling stock (e.g. no dividing door). So the "better quality accommodation" argument can't be used any longer, nor can the "less crowded accommodation" argument when most peak services operate to/from Brighton.

 

[MikeWh]

Gatwick Express does justify the sale of its tickets on the basis that its trains run every 15 minutes and are not overtaken by other services. "Fast and frequent" is the primary, if not the only, reason for using their services.

I've got to pick up this point about being overtaken. It isn't normally* going to happen, regardless of what the timetable says. Once the tracks merge together outside Victoria station there is only one place that the trains could pass each other before the tracks diverge just before Gatwick station. That place is East Croydon where the two mainline tracks split into three with a reversible line in the middle. Any suggestion of overtaking is going to be down to timetable padding.

*OK, there have been occasions where engineering works on a Sunday have seen GatEx services diverted via slower lines in London. On those occasions it has indeed been possible for the trains to be overtaken, but that is a different scenario to that one being discussed here.

 

[All Line Rover]

I've got to pick up this point about being overtaken. It isn't normally* going to happen, regardless of what the timetable says. Once the tracks merge together outside Victoria station there is only one place that the trains could pass each other before the tracks diverge just before Gatwick station. That place is East Croydon where the two mainline tracks split into three with a reversible line in the middle. Any suggestion of overtaking is going to be down to timetable padding.

*OK, there have been occasions where engineering works on a Sunday have seen GatEx services diverted via slower lines in London. On those occasions it has indeed been possible for the trains to be overtaken, but that is a different scenario to that one being discussed here.

True, but since Gatwick Express claims to be "perfect... if you’re looking to start your London adventure as soon as possible" - no indication being made (particularly when bearing in mind the 15 minute frequency claim) that this only applies if you happen to be at the station just before a Gatwick Express service is due to depart - "overtaken" includes not just the definition used by National Rail Enquiries or the Southern booking engine, but would also include a customer at Victoria station at xx:01 being "persuaded" to wait for the xx:15 Gatwick Express when there is a xx:06 Southern departure (which does extend beyond the point I was making in my opening post, since this particular type of "overtaking" occurs even when there are no timetable alterations).