Garforth to Goole permitted routes

[BC]

Hello all...

I'm looking at season tickets, and getting a little confused. It's the first time I've dived into the routeing guide and could do with a little help...

Season ticket prices from Garforth to Goole. An any permitted route is somewhat cheaper, than a route that is constrained to go via Brough.... IT seems odd that the restricted season ticket costs more....Why?

Looking at the guide and assuming I'm doing it correctly... Garforth is part of Leeds group, Goole is it's own routing point...
Look up the permitted routes and it gives me them via DO (Doncaster) and HL (hull).

Looking at the maps, I can see the doncaster route OK - bit long like but I can see why. The Hull one shows Brough as an interchange.

So presumably a season ticket that is any permitted route would not allow interchange at Brough? Because that would be doubleing back? Presumably there are trians that go on the Hull line from Garforth to Goole without going through Brough so I would have to use these unless I paid more for the one via Brough (which would stop me going via Doncaster).

Have I worked that one correctly?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Travelling via Brough is a doubleback. The any permitted route would require a change a Gilberdyke - I'm presuming the fast trains don't stop there?

I'm also presuming that a weekly Gilberdyke to Brough ticket is around the premium that is charged for a via Brough ticket?

Hopefully, there are others that know the region a little better that may be able to suggest a ticket (or combination) that lets you have the flexibility that you need.

 

[DaiGog]

The Any Permitted ticket is valid for travel Garforth - Leeds - Doncaster - Goole, or Garforth - Gilberdyke - Goole, but not via Brough.

'Via Brough' means valid ONLY via Brough. The only permitted route with this one is therefore Garforth - Brough - Goole; note it is not valid for travel Garforth - Selby - Gilberdyke - Goole omitting Brough, even though it's the same line of route.

Neither ticket is valid via Hull, or Garforth - Leeds - Selby (-Gilberdyke/Brough) as these are barred double-backs. Additionally, neither is valid via York.

In terms of why the Any Permitted is priced lower than the 'Via Brough', the former is priced by Northern and the latter by TPE, so they cannot collude to set fares. While the Any Permitted is more flexible than the 'Via Brough', the routeing permissions are different so there is no real need for the price of one to cap the other. You may find that the routeing on the Any Permitted changes in the coming months as part of the industry scheme to replace that term with something more meaningful to the customer - maybe to 'Not Via Brough', or something else.

 

[BC]

It's not really a question of flexibility (yet) as I need to look at the train timings. I think as someone has said though I need to look at what the change times are like at Gilberdyke and frequency of direct trains....

I can also see myself spending far too long looking through the routeing guide just for fun... but I'm weird like that.

OK, another one - Could I get a train from Woodlesford into Leeds then out again to Gilberdyke. Being as the route out from Leeds is not the same route in? Or am I falling foul of any other rules in doing so?

 

[JB_B]

...
'Via Brough' means valid ONLY via Brough. The only permitted route with this one is therefore Garforth - Brough - Goole; note it is not valid for travel Garforth - Selby - Gilberdyke - Goole omitting Brough, even though it's the same line of route.
....

As long as the ticket permits break of journey, I don't think they'd actually need to go as far as Brough (although that might be quicker). Given the OP is asking about a season ticket, I think they should be fine doing Garforth - Selby - Gilberdyke - Goole omitting Brough.

 

[DaiGog]

As long as the ticket permits break of journey, I don't think they'd actually need to go as far as Brough (although that might be quicker). Given the OP is asking about a season ticket, I think they should be fine doing Garforth - Selby - Gilberdyke - Goole omitting Brough.

I agree, that should be fine as season tickets are valid for unlimited travel on permitted routes.

On the Woodlesford question, Garforth - Doncaster via Woodlesford isn't permitted so my guess would be no, if you have a Garforth - Goole season.

If you bought a Woodlesford - Goole ticket, the one routed Any Permitted isn't valid via Leeds, but Woodlesford - Goole still has a route 'Via Brough' so Woodlesford - Leeds - Brough - Goole should be OK with that ticket, but the journey planners aren't permitting it. Strange, as I can't see another obvious way of getting to Brough - and if this is wrong, which it appears to be, then the same wrong rule may be incorrectly barring the Any Permitted via Leeds and Gilberdyke.

 

[yorkie]

As long as the ticket permits break of journey, I don't think they'd actually need to go as far as Brough (although that might be quicker). Given the OP is asking about a season ticket, I think they should be fine doing Garforth - Selby - Gilberdyke - Goole omitting Brough.

Yes; you can't get an itinerary without doubling back to Brough but there is nothing to stop you starting/finishing/interchanging 'short' of Brough.

 

[BC]

I agree, that should be fine as season tickets are valid for unlimited travel on permitted routes.

On the Woodlesford question, Garforth - Doncaster via Woodlesford isn't permitted so my guess would be no, if you have a Garforth - Goole season.

If you bought a Woodlesford - Goole ticket, the one routed Any Permitted isn't valid via Leeds, but Woodlesford - Goole still has a route 'Via Brough' so Woodlesford - Leeds - Brough - Goole should be OK with that ticket, but the journey planners aren't permitting it. Strange, as I can't see another obvious way of getting to Brough - and if this is wrong, which it appears to be, then the same wrong rule may be incorrectly barring the Any Permitted via Leeds and Gilberdyke.

This is what is confusing me... It's considerably faster to go woodlesford - goole via Leeds (and via Brough or gilberdyke). Woodlesford isn't part of any routing group as far as I can see unlike Garforth which is part of Leeds. It seems ludicrious that I should be expected to travel away from Leeds when it's so much better with more options to go into it but I guess thats longer.... Unless the option is to buy a woodlesford-leeds and a leeds to goole pair of season tickets...

 

[DaiGog]

Buying the pair of tickets may be the best way round it for now, but it can't be right that neither of the Woodlesford - Goole tickets are valid via Leeds (particularly the Via Brough one, as you then can't go via Brough!)

 

[JB_B]

Looking at the split routeing, trainscanbecheaper.info is happy to offer Woodlesford-Brough (any permitted) via Leeds which implies that Leeds passes the fares check as an origin routeing point for Woodlesford-Brough.

If so, that would mean that the Woodlesford-Goole (route:Brough) ticket is valid via Leeds.

(Unfortunately, I've not been able to extract the relevant NFM64 fares needed to confirm/deny this - rp_calc seems to have the same problem.)

 

[BC]

I think that it is, as there appears to be a negative easment that says you cannot do that via Doncaster.... So presumably as Woodlesford is not a Leeds group station, I can travel though leeds via the Hull line as I come in from Woodlesford on a different line.

Garforth being a leeds group station, I cannot travel to Leeds (to get a faster service) then back out towards Hull as that means travelling back through Garforth which is presumbly a forbidden double back...

I really need to look at employment in less awkward places than Goole... Or drive. Half the time and about the same cost it seems now!

 

[JB_B]

(Unfortunately, I've not been able to extract the relevant NFM64 fares needed to confirm/deny this - rp_calc seems to have the same problem.)

I understand that the relevant fares aren't available in NFM64 so Leeds neither passes nor fails the fares check. In the absence of a positive easement, different journey planners may show different behaviours (some treating it as a pass, others as a fail). So if you need via Leeds on a Woodlesford-Goole (Route:Brough) season it might be worth getting written confirmation of its validity to avoid any future hassle.

 

[kieron]

As going via Brough seems to be the quickest option most of the time, one thing which should work would be to buy:

1, season from Garforth - Rawcliffe route "any permitted" (£73.30 for a week)
2. season from Gilberdyke to Brough route "." (£21.30 for a week)

Rawcliffe is a village west of Goole which gets 3 trains a day (and none at all on Sundays).

A Garforth-Rawcliffe season is valid for various routes including:
Garforth (Leeds Group)-Selby-Gilberdyke-Goole (routeing point)-Rawcliffe (map HL)
Garforth (Leeds Group)-Leeds-Woodlesford-Castleford (Pontefract Group)-Rawcliffe (map YY)

This isn't valid via Brough, so a Gilberdyke-Brough season fills in the gap. The Garforth-Brough train does not need to call at Gilberdyke if you are using a season ticket in conjunction with another ticket.

This is a little more expensive than a "via Brough" season, but it covers both routes mentioned, and it should be easy enough to get a web site to show both routes for ticket 1 if you ask for journeys avoiding Brough.

I should add that there are cheaper season tickets than ticket 1, but this one shouldn't surprise staff too much.

 

[yorkie]

Season ticket prices from Garforth to Goole. An any permitted route is somewhat cheaper, than a route that is constrained to go via Brough.... IT seems odd that the restricted season ticket costs more....Why?

It's not restricted; it offers additional validity via Brough.

So presumably a season ticket that is any permitted route would not allow interchange at Brough?

Yes that's right.

Because that would be doubleing back?

There is no blanket ban on doubling back, but there is a ban on doubling back while tracing mapped routes, except where an easement allows it.

Presumably there are trians that go on the Hull line from Garforth to Goole without going through Brough so I would have to use these unless I paid more for the one via Brough (which would stop me going via Doncaster).

With an Any Permitted ticket, you can change short of Brough at Gilderdyke (where connections allow for this) or you can travel via Leeds and Doncaster.

With the via Brough ticket, you can do any of the above, with the option to double back beyond Gilberdyke, to Brough.

Bizarrely the direct Leeds to Goole train isn't valid on a Garforth to Goole ticket (though of course it would be on a Leeds to Goole ticket)