GA Smartcard question

[Stompa]

I finally got around to giving a GA Smartcard a try today. After successfully loading an off-peak day return from Cambridge to Ely onto the card, the outward journey went as expected.

On arrival back at Ely station though the gatelines were all open, but I assumed I still needed to touch-in, which gave a double beep (which I'm guessing means it failed?). Then on arriving at Cambridge I got a red light at the gateline. The guy checked the ticket on my card, said it was fine, and that he didn't know why I got the red light. He recommended I also get the ticket checked out at the ticket office to cover my back (whatever that means?). I did so, and they confirmed that the ticket was fine too.

Out of curiousity, does anybody know why I might have got that red light? Was it related to the double beep at Ely, and if so is there anything I should have done about it at the time?

Thanks

 

[redreni]

There have been a few threads recently where this business of tapping in and out on smartcards has come up (and one about Oyster).

Obviously if using some form of Pay-As-You-Go, tapping in and out is essential or the correct fare isn't going to be charged.

When, however, a ticket is loaded (be it a single or return ticket, a point-to-point season or a daily or season zonal ticket such as a Travelcard), as far as I can tell there's no particular reason from a passenger perspective why you need to tap in and out.

But, because the industry wants the data generated by people tapping in and out to be as complete and as useful as possible, they have written tapping in and out into the T&Cs as a blanket requirement. I think I'm right in saying, though, that neither any of the various smartcard T&Cs nor the NRCoT actually go so far as to say that not tapping in correctly means your ticket isn't valid. Saying in the T&Cs that you have to tap in, but not saying what happens if you don't, doesn't (I think) mean all that much - okay, you've breached the T&Cs but you still had a valid ticket, so what happens? In practice I don't think anything adverse does or can happen. If GA or any other smartcard provider wanted to penalise passengers for not tapping in, the penalty would need to be set out in the T&Cs at the very least (if not in the NRCoT).

There will be circumstances where it is inconvenient if not downright impossible to tap in.

You might, for example, already hold a ticket (e.g. a paper season ticket) from, say, Royston to Cambridge and you might decide to load a Cambridge to Ely ticket onto a smartcard so that you can travel directly from Royston to Ely. In that case, you couldn't tap in at Royston because the ticket on your Smartcard wouldn't be valid there, and you couldn't reasonably be expected to tap in at Cambridge as that's not where your journey begins. I've been assured that, in practice, in circumstances like this it's fine not to tap in and I've had no problems so far as a result of missing taps.

I think as long as you hold a valid ticket on your smartcard, you're fine.

 

[Hadders]

My view is that smartcards are fine for season tickets or Rover/Ranger type tickets but I really don't see the point of them for 'normal' tickets. Given the faff involved with buying and then loading the ticket to the smartcard it's more straightforward to buy the ticket as an eticket and show the barcode on your phone.

 

[redreni]

My view is that smartcards are fine for season tickets or Rover/Ranger type tickets but I really don't see the point of them for 'normal' tickets. Given the faff involved with buying and then loading the ticket to the smartcard it's more straightforward to buy the ticket as an eticket and show the barcode on your phone.

I agree. I have recently taken to using an LNER smartcard for 7 day inboundary travelcards for commuting (because of the Amex cashback - I figure I can do this without frustrating poor old Yorkie too much since it's a ticket most people would buy from TfL and, since not able to be issued as a paper or e-ticket, not one you can buy from the forum's ticketing site afaik).

I also intend to use a smartcard for network railcard-discounted day travelcards (for those weekends when I don't have a seven day travelcard season). This is purely because I had been buying these on paper regularly for a few years and had become ever more frustrated at the amount of friction paper tickets now cause at gatelines, especially when you're using the same ticket loads of times in a day. They normally work okay, but they can get demagnetised and sometimes you get issued one that just doesn't work the barriers at all, which gets tiresome pretty quickly. Then there are the gates that have been programmed to reject railcard-discounted paper tickets (so that a purely theoretical manual check of the railcard can be performed) but not programmed to reject the same railcard-discounted tickets on smartcards. It is also a benefit to be able to buy a travelcard online and load it onto a smartcard using NFC before setting out - this saves having to remember to buy it during the week prior (which is what I used to do), or else being restricted to buying it on the day at a station (which precludes using the travelcard to get to the station by bus).

I often use day travelcards in conjunction with boundary zone tickets and do non-stop splits, hence my interest in whether the requirement to tap in and out would be enforced, and if so whether tapping out and in again at the split point would be expected.

 

[jon81uk]

My view is that smartcards are fine for season tickets or Rover/Ranger type tickets but I really don't see the point of them for 'normal' tickets. Given the faff involved with buying and then loading the ticket to the smartcard it's more straightforward to buy the ticket as an eticket and show the barcode on your phone.

The only time I use them is the very rare occasions when I get an off-peak travelcard instead of just eticket to London and then contactless. As you can't use e-ticket on TfL the smartcard is easier. Annoyingly though I think super off-peak is paper only.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I've recently got a Chiltern Smartcard, and have the same issues. Some days it works fine, then I get a random day where I get the red light.

It terms of use, I think you have to tap in at the start of your journey, even if the barriers are open, as this is what downloads the ticket onto your Smartcard. I always tap out at the end of my journey as well, even if the barriers are open. I'm not sure if I have to do this or not?

On the the Chiltern app, you can check if the ticket has downloaded, by using the NFC ticket scanning function, so wondering if there is a similar function on the GA app? Last time I got the red light, the ticket had still downloaded.

I was using e-tickets until fairly recently, and got a Smartcard as I thought, incorrectly, that I could use Chiltern flexi-season tickets. I did like the idea of not having to worry about my phone being charged, or going through a mobile blackspot when trying to find my e-ticket.

Bizarrely, 9 times out of 10, no-one actually checks my Smartcard. When the train manager comes around on a ticket check, they normally just give my Smartcard a cursory glance and move on!!

 

[Stompa]

My view is that smartcards are fine for season tickets or Rover/Ranger type tickets but I really don't see the point of them for 'normal' tickets. Given the faff involved with buying and then loading the ticket to the smartcard it's more straightforward to buy the ticket as an eticket and show the barcode on your phone.

I was pleasantly surprised at just how easy it was to load the ticket onto the smartcard, no more difficult than getting an e-ticket into Google Wallet. Using a card also seems marginally simpler to me (assuming it works!), no need to get out a phone and get it to display the correct ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Thanks for all the useful responses so far. The last time I checked (probably a very long time ago) it wasn't possible to put travelcards on a GA smartcard. That still appears to be the case, does it require a particular type of card to work?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

It terms of use, I think you have to tap in at the start of your journey, even if the barriers are open, as this is what downloads the ticket onto your Smartcard. I always tap out at the end of my journey as well, even if the barriers are open. I'm not sure if I have to do this or not?

On the the Chiltern app, you can check if the ticket has downloaded, by using the NFC ticket scanning function, so wondering if there is a similar function on the GA app? Last time I got the red light, the ticket had still downloaded.

Can you not load it onto the card using the Chiltern app? And yes, the GA app does allow you to view what's on the card.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Travelcards should be able to be loaded to any Smartcard, the National Rail Smartcard Manager App is a good bet as well

 

[Haywain]

got a Smartcard as I thought, incorrectly, that I could use Chiltern flexi-season tickets.

You can use flexi-seasons loaded to a smartcard.

 

[redreni]

The only time I use them is the very rare occasions when I get an off-peak travelcard instead of just eticket to London and then contactless. As you can't use e-ticket on TfL the smartcard is easier. Annoyingly though I think super off-peak is paper only.

Yeah, as I live inside zones 1-6 my workaround for this is get the travelcard on a Smartcard and buy a paper extension ticket (which is another good reason for not tapping out, incidentally). Often I'm extending to Maidenhead, though, which doesn't have super off-peak fares anyway so it can be easier just to put the extension ticket on the smartcard.

 

[Haywain]

Travelcards should be able to be loaded to any Smartcard,

As long as you don't buy them online (which renders the NR Smartcard Manager app irrelevant), and they're not GTR Super Off Peaks, but apart from that...

 

[Stompa]

As long as you don't buy them online (which renders the NR Smartcard Manager app irrelevant), and they're not GTR Super Off Peaks, but apart from that...

Ah OK, that would explain why I couldn't get it to work, I was trying it out online.

 

[redreni]

Sorry, what's the online limitation? Is it specific to Greater Anglia?

 

[Haywain]

Sorry, what's the online limitation? Is it specific to Greater Anglia?

A smartcard ticket bought online can only be added to a smartcard from the same TOC, whereas a ticket bought at a station or TVM can be added to a smartcard from any TOC.

 

[redreni]

A smartcard ticket bought online can only be added to a smartcard from the same TOC, whereas a ticket bought at a station or TVM can be added to a smartcard from any TOC.

Ah, got it.

Yes, that's annoying.I've already accumulated three of the things when one should be more than sufficient, but you never know which government-owned TOC is going to offer the most cashback from one month to the next...

 

[Haywain]

Yes, that's annoying.I've already accumulated three of the things when one should be more than sufficient,

The number I've got is in double figures from at least 6 different TOCs and yet, a few months ago, when I needed a priv flexi-season the only option to buy online was to get a new RDG/RSTL smartcard!

 

[Stompa]

A smartcard ticket bought online can only be added to a smartcard from the same TOC, whereas a ticket bought at a station or TVM can be added to a smartcard from any TOC.

OK, I'm probably being dim, but if that's so then why can't I purchase a travelcard (e.g. Cambridge to Liverpool Street using GA trains) and add it to my GA Smartcard? The only option I get is 'collect at station'.

FWIW the FAQs here:

Smartcard FAQs

Browse our frequently asked questions about Smart Card.

www.greateranglia.co.uk

suggest that Travelcards are available on smartcards.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I was pleasantly surprised at just how easy it was to load the ticket onto the smartcard, no more difficult than getting an e-ticket into Google Wallet. Using a card also seems marginally simpler to me (assuming it works!), no need to get out a phone and get it to display the correct ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Thanks for all the useful responses so far. The last time I checked (probably a very long time ago) it wasn't possible to put travelcards on a GA smartcard. That still appears to be the case, does it require a particular type of card to work?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==


Can you not load it onto the card using the Chiltern app? And yes, the GA app does allow you to view what's on the card.

Sorry, but no idea. To be honest, the information from Chiltern on how to use the Smartcard was at best, vague. It just seemed to suggest that I had to tap in.

 

[redreni]

I've not done it on a GA smartcard but I have on GWR and LNER.

When you buy the ticket (whether it's a travelcard or not), you have to nominate a station where you want to load your smartcard.

Once you've bought the ticket you then have a choice of either loading it at your nominated station or loading it using your phone.

The GA website may or may let you do that, or you can do it on the National Rail smartcard app. (As I understand it, the National Rail smartcard app can read your smartcard and then consult a central database to see if any tickets that have been purchased but not yet loaded onto the card. It will find any such tickets and offer to let you load them onto the smartcard).

 

[BanburyBlue]

You can use flexi-seasons loaded to a smartcard.

Yes thanks. My issue was that you cannot use a senior railcard with a flexi-season ticket, so no longer economical viable.

 

[Stompa]

I've not done it on a GA smartcard but I have on GWR and LNER.

When you buy the ticket (whether it's a travelcard or not), you have to nominate a station where you want to load your smartcard.

Once you've bought the ticket you then have a choice of either loading it at your nominated station or loading it using your phone.

The GA website may or may let you do that, or you can do it on the National Rail smartcard app. (As I understand it, the National Rail smartcard app can read your smartcard and then consult a central database to see if any tickets that have been purchased but not yet loaded onto the card. It will find any such tickets and offer to let you load them onto the smartcard).

Thanks, I've successfully purchased an off-peak return using the GA App and loaded it onto my GA smartcard. But the app doesn't seem to offer that option for travelcards, just 'collect from station'. Mind you, I'm assuming 'collect from station' means getting a paper ticket from a machine, but perhaps it also allows for the ticket to be simply loaded onto the smartcard when you touch in? It's as clear as mud!

 

[swing]

I think part of the problem is that whilst Cambridge isn't part of the TSGN KeyGo scheme, most of the fares from the Cambridge stations seem to be set by TSGN (Thameslink) and they don't currently allow travelcard fares to be bought online for smartcard delivery. One stop towards London on the GA line and you can select smartcard delivery, so it appears to be a Cambridge issue, rather than a GA issue. I suspect the easiest solution in this case is simply to buy the travelcard via the TVM at Cambridge, which can be loaded onto whatever smartcard is presented, including a GA smartcard (which is the easiest way to load a travelcard for the rest of the Thameslink route from Cambridge into London)

 

[Haywain]

OK, I'm probably being dim, but if that's so then why can't I purchase a travelcard (e.g. Cambridge to Liverpool Street using GA trains) and add it to my GA Smartcard?

No idea, but I didn't say you can buy everything to add to a smartcard, what I said was that to add a ticket to a GA smartcard the online purchase must be from GA. Other limitations may mean that the desired ticket isn’t available for smartcard fulfilment and that is likely to be happen for any online retailer and any smartcard.

 

[Wallsendmag]

One answer may be GTR's use of dedicated smart ticket types. GA only price the GA only Travelcard from Cambridge, maybe the GA website isn't set up to retail GTR Smart ticket types.

 

[Stompa]

Thanks all. TBH the whole system sounds like a complete mess!

 

[Haywain]

Thanks all. TBH the whole system sounds like a complete mess!

It is.

 

[swing]

One answer may be GTR's use of dedicated smart ticket types. GA only price the GA only Travelcard from Cambridge, maybe the GA website isn't set up to retail GTR Smart ticket types.

Yes, it's definitely appears to be linked to the GTR (TSGN / Thameslink) dedicated smart ticket types, and having the standard ticket types explicitly not set for smartcard delivery, and I think some setting on the smart ticket types that prevents anyone online retailing these (including GTR who can't sell you a travelcard online for delivery to their own smartcard). Interestingly, I couldn't get the GA app to offer smartcard delivery for the GA only travelcard from Cambridge either, although (as I said), move one station closer to London and GA travelcards are eligible for smartcard delivery.