GA franchise extension

[oliMw]

Correct me if I'm wrong I was young at the time, before 2002 was the only service on the Breckland line the Central Trains service to Liverpool Lime Street? if so then I am sure that there were a lot less passengers traveling to Cambridge then with the change at Ely than there are today with the direct link to Cambridge

 

[TheBigD]

You are correct... Only the hourly Liverpool - Norwich service... Brandon, Attleborough and Wymondham generally had a service every 2 hours...

 

[jopsuk]

Also there is a desire to extend to Stansted Airport and to augment the service to half hourly as a result of it's success.

This won't be happening (at least, not soon), partly down to lack of units. What they are going to be doing is running an EMU off-peak from Cambridge to Stansted, hourly / half an hour opposite the XC service.

 

[CockneySparrow]

In addition, one of the reasons the Norwich to Cambridge service has been so successful is because there was no regular direct link there before 2002, and the fact that the service has been so successful suggests that people would be put off by travelling if they had to change at Ely.

Also there is a desire to extend to Stansted Airport and to augment the service to half hourly as a result of it's success.

Please bear in mind that not all passengers that board before Ely from the likes of Brandon and Thetford that stay on the train through to Cambridge actually pass through the gates at Cambridge then disappear into the surrounding streets of the station, some will just change trains on route to London anyway so in effect making that one change whether at Ely or Cambridge would be the same

 

[Tomnick]

Yes but - what would turning it back at Ely achieve?

 

[43074]

Please bear in mind that not all passengers that board before Ely from the likes of Brandon and Thetford that stay on the train through to Cambridge actually pass through the gates at Cambridge then disappear into the surrounding streets of the station, some will just change trains on route to London anyway so in effect making that one change whether at Ely or Cambridge would be the same

Ely is served by one London departure per hour at xx:26 past the hour - 12 minutes before the Norwich arrives at xx:38; at Cambridge there are 4tph to London Kings Cross, 2tph to London Liverpool Street and 1tph to Stansted (which does call at Ely as well), so connections are shorter and generalised journey times are reduced. Also, the potential for travel to destinations other than London is much greater, such as Harlow & Stevenage because there are also slower London trains as well as the Cambridge Cruisers. Cambridge has better interchange facilities for passengers changing trains and also an alternative in the event of disruption closing the Kings Cross line.

That argument doesn't remove the need for the train to terminate at Cambridge - as you say, many 'disappear into the surrounding streets' outside Cambridge station (and that is not an inconsiderable figure - you seem to have underestimated Cambridge as a destination), so the fact remains that terminating Norwich to Cambridge services at Ely is ludicrous.

 

[CockneySparrow]

A very quick look suggests that the Norwich - Cambidge services are generally timed for 58 or 59 minutes between Norwich and Ely, and 61 or 62 between Ely and Norwich. Perhaps CockneySparrow could, as 306024 has already suggested, explain how you could run an hourly service over that section with two units?

Ok, here is the thinking and response,

Train leaves Norwich on the hour say 8:00 arrives Ely at 8:59 lets allow ten minutes to change ends so will depart 9:09 arrive back in Norwich at 10:10

Yes you will need three units still, another to depart NRW at 9:00 and a third at10:00 however with the first unit back in Norwich 10 minutes past each hour this allows this unit to be used elsewhere for 50 minutes

Without sitting for hours working out new diagrams I would be very surprised if the first unit being available at the Norwich end for 50 minutes each hour wouldn't be of use rather than spending it on the rails between Cambridge and then sitting in platform 5 for about 20 doing nothing whilst the crew have a break

 

[jopsuk]

Terminating at Cambridge would:

+ : no idea

- : make journeys more awkward for many people
- : push people into trying to drive into Cambridge
- : unnecessarily occupy a platform during the time the unit could have gone to Cambridge and back...

It wouldn't:

* : "free up a unit"
* : "free up a path" (Cambridge-Ely is not congested)

 

[43074]

Ok, here is the thinking and response,

Train leaves Norwich on the hour say 8:00 arrives Ely at 8:59 lets allow ten minutes to change ends so will depart 9:09 arrive back in Norwich at 10:10

Yes you will need three units still, another to depart NRW at 9:00 and a third at10:00 however with the first unit back in Norwich 10 minutes past each hour this allows this unit to be used elsewhere for 50 minutes

Without sitting for hours working out new diagrams I would be very surprised if the first unit being available at the Norwich end for 50 minutes each hour wouldn't be of use rather than spending it on the rails between Cambridge and then sitting in platform 5 for about 20 doing nothing whilst the crew have a break

There are no out and back journeys from Norwich that can be achieved in 50 minutes though? The 50 minutes would be better used to enhance connections (or in this case maintain connections) at Cambridge. And you don't release any DMUs as you were telling us earlier.

 

[oliMw]

I don't think there are any services out of Norwich on the rural services which would be back in time for the next service to Ely

-------------

Beat me to it!

 

[TheBigD]

I'll humour you for a while...

So where in the 50 minutes at Norwich would you send the unit???

A round trip to Gt Yarmouth is 70-75 minutes, Lowestoft 90 minutes, Sheringham 115 minutes and North Walsham 55 minutes...

Also, leaving Norwich on the hour there is the London train at that time already, your also only 3 minutes behind the Emt service at xx57... On the way back arriving into Norwich at xx10 would also clash with the existing Emt service from Liverpool...

I'm really struggling by what you propose...

 

[Tomnick]

To give the chap some credit, I can see where he's coming from. No, you couldn't do much with a unit, in isolation, during a 50 minute layover at Norwich. If another line required long layovers at Norwich too, though, the two could be interworked to save a unit between them. You'd then end up with your nice three-car units running round half-empty for much of the day on the other route (as happens with interworked routes in West Yorks, though less so than previously), not that you'd need three-car units if you kill half the demand off by removing the attraction of the through service to Cambridge...

The above is, I must point out, deliberately rather simplistic just to illustrate the point. It'd only work if the existing service could be completely retimed between Norwich and Ely in one or both directions without affecting anything else, and then in such a way that it'd neatly interwork with something else at Norwich.

 

[dk1]

Ironically the plan is that Norwich to Cambridge will go half-hourly following the Ely North upgrade.

 

[jopsuk]

Are you sure about that? It would make Cambridge-Ely five trains per hour!

 

[Class 170101]

Just somethings to scupper interworking though its possible in theory

1. Insufficient 170s. So interworking could result in slower journeys between Norwich and Cambridge - consequently longer journey times and lower quality and capacity on non 170 services.
2. Only five Electric units are allowed in section north of Cambridge (Milton Fen). So splitting Norwich to Cambridge services at Ely won't help you. Additionally where will the electric units come from to cover these services particularly in the peak? The ones that are spare, the nine Class 317/7s seem to be wanted in 200 different places at once.
3. Importing delays from one route to another.

 

[WestCountry]

Remember that there will only be a small % travelling direct anyway

I'd love to know where you got that 'information', because as a semi-regular user it's completely the opposite of what I see in reality. :roll:
Out of all the passengers on a well-loaded 3-car unit, perhaps a dozen board/alight at all intermediate stations combined (maybe a few more, because Ely does get quite a few changes). About 60-70% of passengers go all the way through.

The dynamic might be a bit different from that in the peak, with more commuters from the Breckland stations to Norwich, Cambridge or onward to London, but in that case the good London connections at CBG are even more important.

You just seem to be proposing a totally daft change, based on very inaccurate assumptions about traffic flows, despite several locals and users telling you that it won't work. It'll never happen, because it simply makes no sense given the realities of how the service is used.

 

[dk1]

Are you sure about that? It would make Cambridge-Ely five trains per hour!

Positive. It's constantly in the local press along with Norwich in 90 & promoted by Norfolk County Council. We are yet to see where the units will come from & 5 trains per hour from Ely is no problem whatsoever. Remember the new station at Chesterton (Cambridge Science Park) should be up & running within a few years too. There will possibly be 6 as both XC & FCC plan to double their frequencies. Then you've got those that will start/terminate at Chesterton from The South.

 

[TheEdge]

Remember that there will only be a small % travelling direct anyway

As the poster above has said and I can confirm from working them all the time a large proportion of people do travel the full distance. A few weeks ago I worked what normally have been a fairly busy late afternoon train from Cambridge. Due to various delays and faults I go turned at Ely. I had no more than 20 on the whole way (and most of those were off by Thetford), very few all the way to Norwich unlike normal.

 

[evergreenadam]

This won't be happening (at least, not soon), partly down to lack of units. What they are going to be doing is running an EMU off-peak from Cambridge to Stansted, hourly / half an hour opposite the XC service.

There is an online petition to increase the Stansted to Birmingham XC service to half hourly and increase late night services:
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/61503

Unfortunately the new GA shuttle between Cambridge and Stansted Airport will run just behind the XC departure so will not provide an even spread of half hourly departures to the airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And from the May 14 timetable change many more Ipswich - Cambridge services become 3 cars at the expense of the Peterborough service which reduce to 2 car 170s.

Is the platform at Newmarket long enough to take three cars?

Just looking at comments made on Newmarket station survey by Railwatch members in 2011, would be interesting to see what the loadings are like now:

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/east/docs/Railfuture-East-Anglia-Station-Count-2011-09-29-Newmarket.pdf

 

[dk1]

Is the platform at Newmarket long enough to take three cars?

Three car trains already call there & wouldn't matter if not as all AGA 170s have SDO to de-select the rear vehicle.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Is tform at Newmarket long enough to take three cars?

Just looking at comments made on Newmarket station survey by Railwatch members in 2011, would be interesting to see what the loadings are like now:

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/east/docs/Railfuture-East-Anglia-Station-Count-2011-09-29-Newmarket.pdf

The situation at Newmarket is that there is a long platform there maybe enough for at least 10 carriages however in recent years the majority has been fenced off with the exception of two carriage lengths on the end of the platform Bury side, since the requirement for three carriages the fence has been pushed back towards the station building and vegetation cleared also tarmaced but only to allow an extra carriage though

The fenced off section looks from the passing eye in good condition all be it a bit of vegetation on the surface, the brick work looks solid

 

[ChrisOpenshaw]

I commute daily from Rayleigh in Essex to London Liverpool St on a class 321.
Friends also use the C2C from Benfleet for a simlar journey to Fenchurch St. If it was possible geographically I would be using this service too but unfortunately I live in Rayleigh not Benfleet so I am stuck with AGA!

All I want is an equatable service in terms of cost, quality and speed. Priorities for me are:-

1) Air Conditioning/Comfort
2) Improved Train times to London
3)Cost
4) WiFi

I do not see how a short term lease is going to meet any of these objective as a commuter line passenger before 2018 at the earliest. This short term approach is not providing the investment needed £20m is a drop in the ocean compared to the investment really need to address the core issues.

 

[Rheilfordd]

I commute daily from Rayleigh in Essex to London Liverpool St on a class 321.
Friends also use the C2C from Benfleet for a simlar journey to Fenchurch St. If it was possible geographically I would be using this service too but unfortunately I live in Rayleigh not Benfleet so I am stuck with AGA!

All I want is an equatable service in terms of cost, quality and speed. Priorities for me are:-

1) Air Conditioning/Comfort
2) Improved Train times to London
3)Cost
4) WiFi

I do not see how a short term lease is going to meet any of these objective as a commuter line passenger before 2018 at the earliest. This short term approach is not providing the investment needed £20m is a drop in the ocean compared to the investment really need to address the core issues.

I do the same journey every day and have grown to despise AGA.

Yesterday was typical, morning peak time trip into London, 12 cars reduced to 8 due to shortage of blah blah. As the train left Shenfield there were more bodies on that train than I've ever seen before.

Coming home in the evening - to watch the world cup semi.......... due to a broken down train at Ilford at 6pm the 20:13 will be severely delayed - as was every other train on the Colchester and Southend lines. Got home in time for the middle of the second half. What joy.

Trains (like any other business critical electro-mechanical devices) don't break down if they are maintained properly. Modern methods of predictive and preventative maintenance, aligned with years of operating the same equipment should result in very infrequent failure rates............

Which bit of the above don't AGA get ?

Air conditioning ? it would always be broken, like their out of order toilets.

 

[Wivenswold]

I've asked AGA for an explanation for the cause of the constant train faults. Tonight was a total shambles too on my line with trains stuck all over the place, though I understand it was due to a fallen tree at Arlesford, the information provided by AGA was appalling.

 

[MP33]

I travel 1st class on AGA and on the 321's the 1st class compartments have,

Broken reading lights
Seats where you sink due to the springs having gone.
The dividing door between the compartments is difficult to open or jammed open.
When the trains brakes quickly, up the front of the unit you get a lovely smell of burning brake fluid.

 

[jon0844]

I travel 1st class on AGA and on the 321's the 1st class compartments have,

Broken reading lights
Seats where you sink due to the springs having gone.
The dividing door between the compartments is difficult to open or jammed open.
When the trains brakes quickly, up the front of the unit you get a lovely smell of burning brake fluid.

Those poor people in standard don't know what they're missing!

 

[306024]

I do not see how a short term lease is going to meet any of these objective as a commuter line passenger before 2018 at the earliest. This short term approach is not providing the investment needed £20m is a drop in the ocean compared to the investment really need to address the core issues.

Spot on. However once AGA have ditched the Shenfield, Chingford, Enfield and Cheshunt services next May, they will have a bit less to worry about. It will be interesting to see how they react to the new Essex Thameside franchise when their turn comes to bid for the new GA franchise.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm no fan of complaint for complaint's sake, but I use both lines. C2C from Upminster when practical, AGA from Brentwood/Shenfield otherwise, since that's actually where I live. Work is on the Jubilee line, so this necessitates using Stratford or West Ham.

Putting aside opinion for one minute, the facts are:
C2C: 8tph 0800-0859 from Upminster - West Ham
AGA: 12 fast tph 0800-0859 from Shenfield - Stratford

Peak adult Oyster fare (including Jubilee line interface to zone 2):
C2C: £2.70 for combined distance 16.4 miles (16p per mile)
AGA: £7.50 for combined distance 21.4 miles (35p per mile)

Likelihood of getting a seat (in my experience) - approximately:
C2C: Cramped seat (centre of 3) 80% of services, Spacious seat (adjacent seat(s) free): 25% of services.
AGA Fast: Cramped seat (centre of 3) 20% of services. Spacious seat (adjacent seat(s) free): 0% of services.

Rolling stock:
C2C: 100% Class 357 - all air-conditioned, fairly quiet
AGA: 95% Class 321, 5% Class 315 - neither air-conditioned, the former quite loud

Punctuality:
C2C: Recorded performance 97-98% on-time, Typical experience 98% on-time, 80% RT
AGA: Recorded performance 93% on-time (I think?), Typical experience 90% on-time, 30% RT

For me, this makes C2C the preferable franchise, due to the considerably lower fares, higher standard rolling stock, higher punctuality and slightly reduced crowding. Neither franchise is perfect, I'd ideally like West Ham to see a higher rate of peak services to/fro Upminster as I often have to wait up to 10 minutes in the evening peak, but this isn't much of a complaint, given I can reliably board a service, and can also expect it to arrive on-time. AGA fast services can usually still be boarded at peak times, but slow services at Stratford frequently leave people behind. Travelling with AGA also requires a 5 minute connection time allowance for every journey as the majority of services typically run 2-3 minutes behind schedule from my experience. Not exactly a catastrophe but still frustrating if you already have tight tolerances on your journey.

The transition from NXEA to AGA has in my opinion solidified the point that changing franchise operator is not all that's needed. While 321s are comparatively unpleasant alongside air-conditioned 357s, they do not give the impression of being end-of-life. If they were all suitably refurbished, even perhaps not quite to the full extent of 448, but at least getting sealed windows, A/C and disabled toilets, they would be fine.
The problem I suspect is really the line infrastructure itself. Train failures do occur, but all too often the issues are signalling/points related, particularly west of Forest Gate. You can't really blame the franchisee for that can you?

 

[TheEdge]

Rolling stock:
C2C: 100% Class 357 - all air-conditioned, fairly quiet
AGA: 95% Class 321, 5% Class 315 - neither air-conditioned, the former quite loud

Thats just because C2C got the trains, AGA/NXEA didn't.

Likelihood of getting a seat (in my experience) - approximately:
C2C: Cramped seat (centre of 3) 80% of services, Spacious seat (adjacent seat(s) free): 25% of services.
AGA Fast: Cramped seat (centre of 3) 20% of services. Spacious seat (adjacent seat(s) free): 0% of services.

Punctuality:
C2C: Recorded performance 97-98% on-time, Typical experience 98% on-time, 80% RT
AGA: Recorded performance 93% on-time (I think?), Typical experience 90% on-time, 30% RT

These two are fairly intertwined. I know everyone like to make the AGA vs C2C because they serve a fairly similar region but they are so different. Firstly, of course the AGA services are busier than the C2C services, Liverpool Street had 58.4 million entries and exits last year, Fenchurch Street, 16.8 million. Similar story between Stratford and West Ham (25.5m vs 4m) Secondly the differences between the area covered. C2C is very self contained and has 2 and a half diversionary routes to get from London to the sea, AGA has nothing, if the GEML goes down, AGA is screwed. Also the GEML has an awful lot of freight traffic up towards Harwich and Felixstowe plus the longer distance services from Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich add to the mix.

 

[samuelmorris]

Which is exactly why I mentioned it. My point is, people need to look beyond the franchisee for the cause of at least some of the problems.