Future uses for existing or more 230s

[Peter Sarf]

Groan. No I am not trying to resurrect a project that might be terminally dormant. But the WMT 230s at Bletchley might have a future.

The following from the "Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line" thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

The other 230 thread says they've bought what was viable out of the engine rafts from the WMT units.

TfW have bought any diesel genset-related spares which were at Bletchley. The WMT units still have their gensets attached and they will be sold with the units. It remains to be seen whether the gensets on the WMT units will be sold on to TfW but they probably will be, given the intention of the buyer of the WMT units to convert them to battery power at a later date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==

Ah yes. I remember it was reported (possibly by you ?) that the engine rafts had been seen removed. Canibalisation has started then !.

A diesel-battery config on the WMT units could well have been beneficial. So too might have been the Ricardo improvements implemented on the gensets of the TfW units via a software mod (see latest Modern Railways magazine). This software mod has helped stop the DPFs getting clogged up. But we'll never know whether that might have led to better reliability on the Marston Vale line. Shame....

So it seems the three WMT 230s are intact - Nos 23003, 230004 & 230005. From other threads it looks like they will never be used on the Marston Vale Line again, certainly not in their current guise but they might be converted to Battery or Battery-Diesel.

Conversion to battery or battery-diesel is an option as they are modular. But that does not necessarily mean for use on the Marston Vale Line.

The diesel generator rafts fitted to the former Marston Vale trio might get sold on to TfW.

It looks like the engine management software mods make a difference ?.

Personally I would also be looking at the door operation and speed thereof.

The 230s generally seem to have more of a future than the 769s !.

Any one any thoughts etc ?.

 

[RobShipway]

Groan. No I am not trying to resurrect a project that might be terminally dormant. But the WMT 230s at Bletchley might have a future.

The following from the "Alternative solutions for the Marston Vale Line" thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==



So it seems the three WMT 230s are intact - Nos 23003, 230004 & 230005. From other threads it looks like they will never be used on the Marston Vale Line again, certainly not in their current guise but they might be converted to Battery or Battery-Diesel.

Conversion to battery or battery-diesel is an option as they are modular. But that does not necessarily mean for use on the Marston Vale Line.

The diesel generator rafts fitted to the former Marston Vale trio might get sold on to TfW.

It looks like the engine management software mods make a difference ?.

Personally I would also be looking at the door operation and speed thereof.

The 230s generally seem to have more of a future than the 769s !.

Any one any thoughts etc ?.

My understanding is that the Martson Vale route is getting Class 150's from Northern and that the three class 230 units 230003/4/5 are or have gone to GWR?

 

[DanNCL]

A one way trip to Newport Docks. I don’t think there is any prospect for reuse of them, not with there being an abundance of other stock available and HMT being in cost cutting mode.

My understanding is that the Martson Vale route is getting Class 150's from Northern and that the three class 230 units 230003/4/5 are or have gone to GWR?

It’s 230001 that GWR have.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My understanding is that the Martson Vale route is getting Class 150's from Northern and that the three class 230 units 230003/4/5 are or have gone to GWR?

The inevitable bit is the 150s for Marston Vale judging from other threads.

News to me that GWR have taken an interest. I suppose it depends how the Greenford trials (of 230001 ?) go - straight battery only iirc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

EDIT

A one way trip to Newport Docks. I don’t think there is any prospect for reuse of them, not with there being an abundance of other stock available and HMT being in cost cutting mode.


It’s 230001 that GWR have.

I recall mention that other GWR branches at the London end could use battery 230s.

 

[D365]

If GWR has indeed purchased the Vivarail intellectual property, and reemployed former staff, I feel a conversion of the WMT 230s to battery operation isn't too far-fetched. Unit 230001 is an example of this diesel-to-battery conversion.

 

[RobShipway]

A one way trip to Newport Docks. I don’t think there is any prospect for reuse of them, not with there being an abundance of other stock available and HMT being in cost cutting mode.


It’s 230001 that GWR have.

Admittedly, wiki pages are not always correct. But within the class 230 page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_230 it does state the following fir GWR:

In February 2022, Great Western Railway announced plans to test fast-charge battery technology on the Greenford branch line. As it is a low priority to be electrified, the only realistic alternative option to replace diesel powered rolling stock is with battery powered. The test will see the existing Class 165 units replaced by Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains produced by Vivarail, with the company's Fast Charge equipment installed. This will entail the installation of a conductor rail that becomes live only when a train is above it. This is then used to charge the lithium-ion batteries on the train, a process that would take about ten minutes. It was announced in February 2023 that GWR had purchased the relevant assets from the administrators of Vivarail, and taken over the employment of nine Vivarail staff, to allow this trial to proceed.

Now, I believe that Vivarail leased 230003/4/5 to West Midlands Trains. Since, GWR are only taking on 9 of the former staff of Vivarrail I do not seem them converting anymore D78 stock that Vivarail had in it's stabling area and believe what was left has since been taken to somewhere like Newport Docks to be scrapped.

So on the basis that it will not just be 230001 being used by GWR, I suspect that 230003/4/5 will either be used as is or more likely be converted as per the comment from @D365. The details does from the Wiki page does say that Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains are to be used, not train. Dependent on the setup of the conductor rail on the Greenford branch line, it then might prohibit the use of class 165 units on the route.

 

[Woods]

A one way trip to Newport Docks. I don’t think there is any prospect for reuse of them, not with there being an abundance of other stock available and HMT being in cost cutting mode.


It’s 230001 that GWR have.

If the 230001 trial is a success and if it can be demonstrated that creating more battery-only 230s for branch lines in the Thames Valley or beyond would be more cost effective than new trains or continuing to run the 16Xs, then the original purpose of the Vivarail project (to create high quality upcycled, low-emission rolling stock and do it cheaper than new trains) might finally come to fruition.

There are of course a lot of ‘ifs’, and the costly legacy of a failed company, in that statement….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

Admittedly, wiki pages are not always correct. But within the class 230 page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_230 it does state the following fir GWR:

In February 2022, Great Western Railway announced plans to test fast-charge battery technology on the Greenford branch line. As it is a low priority to be electrified, the only realistic alternative option to replace diesel powered rolling stock is with battery powered. The test will see the existing Class 165 units replaced by Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains produced by Vivarail, with the company's Fast Charge equipment installed. This will entail the installation of a conductor rail that becomes live only when a train is above it. This is then used to charge the lithium-ion batteries on the train, a process that would take about ten minutes. It was announced in February 2023 that GWR had purchased the relevant assets from the administrators of Vivarail, and taken over the employment of nine Vivarail staff, to allow this trial to proceed.

Now, I believe that Vivarail leased 230003/4/5 to West Midlands Trains. Since, GWR are only taking on 9 of the former staff of Vivarrail I do not seem them converting anymore D78 stock that Vivarail had in it's stabling area and believe what was left has since been taken to somewhere like Newport Docks to be scrapped.

So on the basis that it will not just be 230001 being used by GWR, I suspect that 230003/4/5 will either be used as is or more likely be converted as per the comment from @D365. The details does from the Wiki page does say that Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains are to be used, not train. Dependent on the setup of the conductor rail on the Greenford branch line, it then might prohibit the use of class 165 units on the route.

The fast charge conductor rails which will be laid down at West Ealing will definitely not prevent the running of 16X stock. Indeed the plan is to run 230001 and a 16X in parallel on the branch for the first few months of the trial until 230001 and the fast charge system is deemed to be working reliably. This seems an eminently sensible approach to me, given the unproven nature of the system.

The remaining D78 donor cars have survived the administration and now belong to GWR. There are about 80 cars left. They are not going for scrap any time soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

If GWR has indeed purchased the Vivarail intellectual property, and reemployed former staff, I feel a conversion of the WMT 230s to battery operation isn't too far-fetched. Unit 230001 is an example of this diesel-to-battery conversion.

This made me chuckle because 230001 wasn’t really converted from diesel to battery. It was more like ran as a diesel for about a year 2015-16 ish, then stood rotting away at Long Marston for several years, before being completely gutted and turned into a battery train for COP26 in 2021. The entire under frame was ripped out and new equipment put in for the battery conversion. Ditto the whole train was re-wired and it gained an entirely new interior as per the TfW units. It was basically a complete reincarnation! Now belongs to GWR.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Admittedly, wiki pages are not always correct. But within the class 230 page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_230 it does state the following fir GWR:

In February 2022, Great Western Railway announced plans to test fast-charge battery technology on the Greenford branch line. As it is a low priority to be electrified, the only realistic alternative option to replace diesel powered rolling stock is with battery powered. The test will see the existing Class 165 units replaced by Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains produced by Vivarail, with the company's Fast Charge equipment installed. This will entail the installation of a conductor rail that becomes live only when a train is above it. This is then used to charge the lithium-ion batteries on the train, a process that would take about ten minutes. It was announced in February 2023 that GWR had purchased the relevant assets from the administrators of Vivarail, and taken over the employment of nine Vivarail staff, to allow this trial to proceed.

Now, I believe that Vivarail leased 230003/4/5 to West Midlands Trains. Since, GWR are only taking on 9 of the former staff of Vivarrail I do not seem them converting anymore D78 stock that Vivarail had in it's stabling area and believe what was left has since been taken to somewhere like Newport Docks to be scrapped.

So on the basis that it will not just be 230001 being used by GWR, I suspect that 230003/4/5 will either be used as is or more likely be converted as per the comment from @D365. The details does from the Wiki page does say that Class 230 battery-electric multiple unit trains are to be used, not train. Dependent on the setup of the conductor rail on the Greenford branch line, it then might prohibit the use of class 165 units on the route.

It would make sense, that if GWR are happy with 230001, that conversion of 230003, 004 & 005 would be easy. After all they are usable and just need the engine rafts replacing with battery rafts - the whole point of the 230s was that engine (et al) rafts could be easily interchanged. So I suspect that, apart from making more battery rafts, there is not much manpower required to support the the conversion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

The remaining D78 donor cars have survived the administration and now belong to GWR. There are about 80 cars left. They are not going for scrap any time soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2023 ==

Indeed. I would guess the D78 donor cars are a mild investment as I doubt they are falling in value as they were bought from LT for scrap value. Unless the price of Aluminium plummets they will be an investment - but also a temptation to sell while prices are high. But I conclude no pressure to scrap them unless space is costly - we are not talking about warm storage thogh.

This made me chuckle because 230001 wasn’t really converted from diesel to battery. It was more like ran as a diesel for about a year 2015-16 ish, then stood rotting away at Long Marston for several years, before being completely gutted and turned into a battery train for COP26 in 2021. The entire under frame was ripped out and new equipment put in for the battery conversion. Ditto the whole train was re-wired and it gained an entirely new interior as per the TfW units. It was basically a complete reincarnation! Now belongs to GWR.

Oh er, you make me think. So is the interior of the Marston Vale 230s vastly different to that of 230001 ?. Or maybe it does not matter ?.

 

[D365]

This made me chuckle because 230001 wasn’t really converted from diesel to battery. It was more like ran as a diesel for about a year 2015-16 ish, then stood rotting away at Long Marston for several years, before being completely gutted and turned into a battery train for COP26 in 2021. The entire under frame was ripped out and new equipment put in for the battery conversion. Ditto the whole train was re-wired and it gained an entirely new interior as per the TfW units. It was basically a complete reincarnation! Now belongs to GWR.

230001 was still operational as a diesel-electric during 2018, I had a few rides around the test track when it was being used for fine-tuning of the engine system. I didn’t realise that the diesel-to-battery conversion had been quite that substantial - was 001 very different to the later units?

 

[Meerkat]

The Greenford business is a test of the technology rather than the trains isn't it? Three more wouldn't be enough for all the branches they would want to roll this out to so I assume they would licence the tech to a mainstream train maker.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The Greenford business is a test of the technology rather than the trains isn't it? Three more wouldn't be enough for all the branches they would want to roll this out to so I assume they would licence the tech to a mainstream train maker.

I don't know for sure but maybe covering three branches with four class 230 units is envisaged. Or..... converting more D78s !.

I think the main driver for 230s on the Thames branches is where a short unit is required - is it the Marlow branch I am thinking of ?.

But I think you have a point - fast charging is a bigger deal than just for the 230s.

 

[anthony263]

Bridgend to Maesteg shuttle in addition to the hourly service from Maesteg to Cardiff once Tondu is zorted

 

[RobShipway]

I don't know for sure but maybe covering three branches with four class 230 units is envisaged. Or..... converting more D78s !.

I think the main driver for 230s on the Thames branches is where a short unit is required - is it the Marlow branch I am thinking of ?.

But I think you have a point - fast charging is a bigger deal than just for the 230s.

Yes, you are thinking of the Maidenhead - Bourne End - Marlow service, where there is only space for two carriage train to reverse at Bourne End.

The Greenford business is a test of the technology rather than the trains isn't it? Three more wouldn't be enough for all the branches they would want to roll this out to so I assume they would licence the tech to a mainstream train maker.

It is a test of the Technology rather than the trains and if the Greenford testing is successfully, then I have no doubt class 230's or similar train will be put on the Maidenhead - Bourne End - Marlow service.

What will be done with Henley-On-Thames, depends on whether the route will receive electrification at some point in the future. I believe that if the class 769's had gone into service, that they would have been serving this route. The capacity of the class 769 would not have been used though most of the year, accept when the Henley Regatta is on. Most of the time you could just use a two car unit, as there is on the route today with class 165 unit 165129 being used. If there is D78 stock available to be converted into battery trains, then you would need a charging point either at both ends of the Henley route, but most certainly at Twyford which is the more likely place for the charging point. I doubt though, unless GWR takes on more ex Vivarail staff that the 9 former Vivarail staff could convert a D78 stock unit into a class 230 battery train.

This is where I see something link Stadler's class 555 or 777 being used on the Greenford, Windsor, Marlow and Henley-On-Thames routes.

 

[12LDA28C]

mods note - split from this thread

It's been announced that Great Western have purchased 67 former LU D78 stock vehicles so it seems they are committing heavily to the fast charge battery concept for use on suitable GWR branch lines, assuming the Greenford trial is a success (when it happens!)

 

[Benjwri]

It's been announced that Great Western have purchased 67 former LU D78 stock vehicles so it seems they are committing heavily to the fast charge battery concept for use on suitable GWR branch lines, assuming the Greenford trial is a success (when it happens!)

Do you have a source? 67 is a huge number, far more than GWR would need for branch lines, or even be able to use.

 

[12LDA28C]

Do you have a source? 67 is a huge number, far more than GWR would need for branch lines, or even be able to use.

Mark Hopwood, GWR's MD posted the information himself on social media

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh my god, how ridiculous.

 

[swt_passenger]

Mark Hopwood, GWR's MD posted the information himself on social media

And it’s been copied into another thread here, at post #9

GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

Whilst there is a separate thread specifically for the Greenford Battery Trial, I thought I would start a more general information, movements & discussion thread for the GWR Class 230. Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month...

www.railforums.co.uk

I think there are now possibly more threads on this subject than operational trains.

 

[JonathanH]

it seems they are committing heavily to the fast charge battery concept for use on suitable GWR branch lines

Does it? Don't they just come, at scrap value, with the other assets of Vivarail, allowing GWR to hedge its options regarding the concept? It is a bit of a leap to say they are committed heavily.

 

[12LDA28C]

Does it? Don't they just come, at scrap value, with the other assets of Vivarail, allowing GWR to hedge its options regarding the concept? It is a bit of a leap to say they are committed heavily.

The intonation is that once the Greenford trial is complete, more trains will follow, not simply a by-default acquisition of a load of scrap vehicles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2023 ==

Oh my god, how ridiculous.

Not a fan of the concept then?

 

[TurboMan]

The intonation is that once the Greenford trial is complete, more trains will follow, not simply a by-default acquisition of a load of scrap vehicles.

That's a bit of a leap. The D78s were bought for scrap value as part of the deal when GWR bought 230001 (so it's not really news). 230001 is being used as a test bed to trial fast battery charging, but even if the trial is a success and the technology is proven (which is not guaranteed) it doesn't automatically follow that the technology will be deployed on the former D78 stock.

 

[Peter Sarf]

From the GWR Class 230 Information, Movements and Discussion Thread.

Looks like GWR has bought a lot of D-Stock coaches:

Mark Hopwood CBEMark Hopwood CBE• 2nd• 2ndManaging Director Great Western Railway & President at Cholsey & Wallingford RailwayManaging Director Great Western Railway & President at Cholsey & Wallingford Railway
15h • 15h •
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Possibly one of my less conventional decisions - buying 67 former LUL vehicles!

But I believe we can make this project work and get a battery train up and running later this year with more to follow!

It feels exciting to be innovating and pushing boundaries.

Watch this space ….


Dave HortonDave Horton• 3rd+• 3rd+ACGI, CEng, MIMechE, Chief Mechanical Engineer (Battery Train Fast Charge Project) at GWRACGI, CEng, MIMechE, Chief Mechanical Engineer (Battery Train Fast Charge Project) at GWR
15h • 15h •
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It was interesting to visit the home for temporarily-retired D78 cars at a not-so-top-secret location in Warwickshire earlier. GWR are now the proud owner of 67 of these cars, some of which I hope will see new life as Fast Charge-equipped battery trains on branch lines in the future. Meanwhile initial testing of our class leader battery train 230001 and its accompanying Fast Charge system is now wrapping up at Bletchley TMD, and will recommence next month at Porterbrook's Rail Innovation Centre at Long Marston; talk about coming full circle in this strange story!
Activate to view larger image,

Somewhere else it does say that the 67 ex LU D78 vehicles acquired at scrap value were included in the purchase price for 230001 and the fast charge technology. So options for more 230s are open.

 

[zwk500]

I don't know for sure but maybe covering three branches with four class 230 units is envisaged. Or..... converting more D78s !.

I think the main driver for 230s on the Thames branches is where a short unit is required - is it the Marlow branch I am thinking of ?.

But I think you have a point - fast charging is a bigger deal than just for the 230s.

Marlow branch is a shout - the reversal at Bourne End is extremely tight for a 46m unit at 47m Operational length. However as it *is* 47m long a 2x23m unit would fit and you wouldn't have the Marston Vale problem.

 

[12LDA28C]

That's a bit of a leap. The D78s were bought for scrap value as part of the deal when GWR bought 230001 (so it's not really news). 230001 is being used as a test bed to trial fast battery charging, but even if the trial is a success and the technology is proven (which is not guaranteed) it doesn't automatically follow that the technology will be deployed on the former D78 stock.

That's the quote from Mark Hopwood, not me so feel free to take it up directly with him if you wish.

In his own words, quoted from his post 'a battery train up and running later this year with more to follow'

 

[zwk500]

It's been announced that Great Western have purchased 67 former LU D78 stock vehicles so it seems they are committing heavily to the fast charge battery concept for use on suitable GWR branch lines, assuming the Greenford trial is a success (when it happens!)

...or they want to secure a reasonable stock of spare parts once they've all gone to a certain Mr Booth in the South Riding.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I heard the 230 has less capacity than a 2 car 165. In that case the 230 should not be allowed near the regatta line, its quite busy throughout the day, I used to commute on that line to college. When they ran two cars, it was always standing on the peak college times.
The Marlow line also has a similar problem, especially during the summer. The 2 car 165s are usually standing

 

[Peter Sarf]

I heard the 230 has less capacity than a 2 car 165. In that case the 230 should not be allowed near the regatta line, its quite busy throughout the day, I used to commute on that line to college. When they ran two cars, it was always standing on the peak college times.
The Marlow line also has a similar problem, especially during the summer. The 2 car 165s are usually standing

I wonder if those carryings are the same post Covid ?. I also don't know whether any of those branches could handle a higher frequency (any long layovers, passing places or double track) ?. Furthermore for the Marlow branch, if the maximum length train possible is being used then nothing longer will be possible anyway - I can guess a 230 has more standing room than a 165.

 

[Thirteen]

Not that the Island Line needs them but would be possible to give them the 230s but converted to battery power.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not that the Island Line needs them but would be possible to give them the 230s but converted to battery power.

Not much point in battery 230s as the island line has third rail already installed. A possibility is that more D78s could be converted to 484s or at least kept for parts.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I wonder if those carryings are the same post Covid ?. I also don't know whether any of those branches could handle a higher frequency (any long layovers, passing places or double track) ?. Furthermore for the Marlow branch, if the maximum length train possible is being used then nothing longer will be possible anyway - I can guess a 230 has more standing room than a 165.

I went to college during COVID and near the end, a three car 165 was needed most days.

For the capacity, I heard it somewhere on here, I have no idea about if it included standing