Future TransPennine/Northern Routes

[Ken H]

You want to go Wigan--Preston--Lancaster--Leeds?

there used to be an early morning carnforth-preston-man vic-calder valley-bradford - leeds train in the 1970's

 

[randyrippley]

You want to go Wigan--Preston--Lancaster--Leeds?

why not?
it reduces the number of trains crawling through Manchester

you can't build a new route through Manchester, or increase current capacity by much, but you can certainly route around Manchester

 

[61653 HTAFC]

why not?
it reduces the number of trains crawling through Manchester

you can't build a new route through Manchester, or increase current capacity by much, but you can certainly route around Manchester

But surely you'd go Preston - Blackburn - Hebden Bridge to avoid Manchester rather than going all the way up to Carnforth and then crawling along the Bentham line? Especially if you're using a lardy 185.

 

[Aictos]

But surely you'd go Preston - Blackburn - Hebden Bridge to avoid Manchester rather than going all the way up to Carnforth and then crawling along the Bentham line? Especially if you're using a lardy 185.

Which surely going via Blackburn is far faster then via Carnforth and serves the same purpose?

Equally another route that I wonder if it's possible to extend is the existing Manchester Victoria to Blackburn services - could it be extended to Preston as these only start and terminate at Blackburn as they enter service from the depot at Blackburn so is it possible to start and terminate the service at Preston instead?

So the new service would call:

Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Smithy Bridge - Littleborough - Walsden - Todmorden -

Burnley Manchester Road - Rose Grove - Accrington - Blackburn - Mill Hill (Lancs) - Cherry Tree -

Pleasington (Calls Upon Request) - Bamber Bridge - Lostock Hall - Preston

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Regarding TPE could there be any other 'InterCity' style services on the TPE franchise that could be added from Hull, Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester or Sheffield?

Maybe Liverpool Lime Street-Hull calling at: Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, Selby and Hull
Maybe for Northern Connect could an extension of the Blackpool-York service go to Scarborough

For Northern Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Gainsborough could it be extended to Leeds maybe merged with an existing service from Leeds forming a direct service from Leeds-Cleethorpes via Sheffield.

 

[Aictos]

Why not run Blackpool to Carstairs as a 8 car Class 350 then divide at Carstairs with the front portion continuing onto Glasgow Central calling at Motherwell and Glasgow Central with the rear portion calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh?

So the the end user ie the passenger gets 1tph to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, the TOC uses the existing path between Preston and Carlisle - it's just fitting in the service between Blackpool and Preston as well as fitting in the service between Carstairs and the two destinations but I think if the resources were there then that would be a improvement on the current 2 hourly Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Equally, the TOC could operate a 4 car each between Manchester Airport/Blackpool North and Preston then run them as a pair to Scotland from Preston using the existing paths and of course the same in reverse.

The only other differences I would make is introduce a Wigan North Western on the Manchester Airport service to improve connectivity between the North West and Scotland and have the Blackpool portion call at
Blackpool - Poulton-le-Fylde - Kirkham & Wesham - Preston.

 

[ScotTrains]

How about a TPEx Glasgow to Leeds service via the S&C and via the GSW line (limited stopping). Thinking perhaps Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, then down the S&C. This would result in very little WCML running and finally give Dumfries and Kilmarnock a fast link to Carlisle.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

How about a TPEx Glasgow to Leeds service via the S&C and via the GSW line (limited stopping). Thinking perhaps Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, then down the S&C. This would result in very little WCML running and finally give Dumfries and Kilmarnock a fast link to Carlisle.

Because of the amount of stops you are proposing it as Northern Connect. Could the Chester-Leeds service be extended to Scarborough or Hull?

 

[Whistler40145]

I can imagine it's far quicker to go from Wigan North Western to Leeds via Preston, Blackburn and Hebden Bridge, rather than a rather slow stagger via Wennington and Skipton

 

[ScotTrains]

Because of the amount of stops you are proposing it as Northern Connect.

It would not be any more than currently stopping at Motherwell and Lockerbie via the WCML. I think it's also a longer route than via the WCML. Personally, I'd like to see first class on this route, therefore ruling out Northern for me!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why not run Blackpool to Carstairs as a 8 car Class 350 then divide at Carstairs with the front portion continuing onto Glasgow Central calling at Motherwell and Glasgow Central with the rear portion calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh?

So the the end user ie the passenger gets 1tph to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, the TOC uses the existing path between Preston and Carlisle - it's just fitting in the service between Blackpool and Preston as well as fitting in the service between Carstairs and the two destinations but I think if the resources were there then that would be a improvement on the current 2 hourly Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Equally, the TOC could operate a 4 car each between Manchester Airport/Blackpool North and Preston then run them as a pair to Scotland from Preston using the existing paths and of course the same in reverse.

The only other differences I would make is introduce a Wigan North Western on the Manchester Airport service to improve connectivity between the North West and Scotland and have the Blackpool portion call at
Blackpool - Poulton-le-Fylde - Kirkham & Wesham - Preston.

I like the idea of a Glasgow and Edinburgh to Blackpool North Service it could work maybe hourly or an alternative proposal would be two-hourly for Edinburgh and two-hourly to Glasgow forming an hourly service between Carlisle and Blackpool.

 

[Aictos]

I like the idea of a Glasgow and Edinburgh to Blackpool North Service it could work maybe hourly or an alternative proposal would be two-hourly for Edinburgh and two-hourly to Glasgow forming an hourly service between Carlisle and Blackpool.

Well the idea I had was for the existing Manchester Airport to Scotland services to be portion worked so instead of having a separate Blackpool North/Manchester Airport to Scotland service, the existing service is kept but with the addition of having the Manchester portion call additionally at Wigan North Western and introduce the Blackpool Portion which joins/splits at Preston therefore only would need the dwell times at Preston to be looked at for the join/split as the existing Blackpool North to Preston EMU shuttles would form the Blackpool North portions of the service.

Yes it means the Manchester Airport portion being a 4 car vs a 8 car but it opens up new direct journey opportunities for Blackpool, Fleetwood, Wigan, Poulton-le-Flyde etc

 

[LOL The Irony]

but it opens up new direct journey opportunities for Blackpool, Fleetwood

You're now going to have to ask Network Rail very, very nicely if they can put some points back at Poulton to even think about getting to Fleetwood.

 

[Aictos]

You're now going to have to ask Network Rail very, very nicely if they can put some points back at Poulton to even think about getting to Fleetwood.

Why?

Fleetwood residents use Blackpool as a railhead so no need for the service to go to Fleetwood.

Besides Fleetwood hasn’t had a NR station for a long while so use Blackpool North as their local station hence the direct comment.

Therefore they are gaining a direct service to Scotland even if they have to go to Blackpool to board it.

 

[VT 390]

Well the idea I had was for the existing Manchester Airport to Scotland services to be portion worked so instead of having a separate Blackpool North/Manchester Airport to Scotland service, the existing service is kept but with the addition of having the Manchester portion call additionally at Wigan North Western and introduce the Blackpool Portion which joins/splits at Preston therefore only would need the dwell times at Preston to be looked at for the join/split as the existing Blackpool North to Preston EMU shuttles would form the Blackpool North portions of the service.

Yes it means the Manchester Airport portion being a 4 car vs a 8 car but it opens up new direct journey opportunities for Blackpool, Fleetwood, Wigan, Poulton-le-Flyde etc

The services in to Manchester would be 5 carriages not 4 so would be less of a problem as the new TPE 397 trains for the WCML all have 5 carriages. The only issues could be that there may not be enough trains to operate to Blackpool and Manchester every hour and is the new Liverpool to Glasgow service at some point in the future planned to join on to the Manchester service at Preston?

 

[Glenn1969]

Is there any merit in a 2nd Calder Valley- Preston service that maybe extends to Lancaster, Carlisle and maybe Glasgow via Kilmarnock (hourly to Carlisle with 3 extensions to Glasgow ) as an alternative to a S&C Leeds to Glasgow service?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Updated TPE Map:

Includes:

• New service from Liverpool to Hull via Manchester Victoria
• New service from Liverpool to Cleethorpes via Manchester (effectively a second service to Manchester for Scunthorpe, Doncaster and Sheffield (a third).

 

[Glenn1969]

I note that map also includes at TPE Liverpool- Crewe- Stoke- Derby- Leicester service. Is that definitely happening or just something you would like to see?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I note that map also includes at TPE Liverpool- Crewe- Stoke- Derby- Leicester service. Is that definitely happening or just something you would like to see?

TfN have put it at the top of the agenda for future TPE/Northern Franchise. Modern Railways December 2018

 

[Glenn1969]

But they don't have any funding to do anything so that is just a wish list

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

But they don't have any funding to do anything so that is just a wish list

They do have some power of the Northern and TPE franchise which were devolved to TfN. They plan to potentially introduce a Liverpool to Leicester service via Crewe and Derby.

 

[VT 390]

Updated TPE Map:

Includes:

• New service from Liverpool to Hull via Manchester Victoria
• New service from Liverpool to Cleethorpes via Manchester (effectively a second service to Manchester for Scunthorpe, Doncaster and Sheffield (a third).

I like the idea of a Cleethorpes to Liverpool service but I would have it run instead of the Manchester Airport service, this would mean Sheffield could have a half hourly service to Liverpool. I know this would mean places like Sheffield and Doncaster would have to change to get to the Airport but as the service has to reverse anyway it would not add much to the overall journey time.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I like the idea of a Cleethorpes to Liverpool service but I would have it run instead of the Manchester Airport service, this would mean Sheffield could have a half hourly service to Liverpool. I know this would mean places like Sheffield and Doncaster would have to change to get to the Airport but as the service has to reverse anyway it would not add much to the overall journey time.

Railfuture are campaign for a second Manchester Airport service. I thought I would take this idea and run it to Liverpool instead.

From: https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display2002 page 3 'Update On Platform 0'

Other Potential developments include:

• an extension of the Scunthorpe to Doncaster service at each end of the day
• increasing the TransPennine Express service between Cleethorpes and Manchester Airport to two per hour.
• a better provision on that service on Sunday (refering to Scunthorpe-Doncaster)
• additional hourly stops at Habrough

 

[daodao]

The TPE franchise should be abolished. Routes via Standedge should be transferred to the Northern franchise, NW England-Scotland services to the WCML franchise and all Hope Valley services (fast and stopping) to the EM franchise.

 

[billio]

why not?
it reduces the number of trains crawling through Manchester

you can't build a new route through Manchester, or increase current capacity by much, but you can certainly route around Manchester

One obvious way of creating an avoiding line around Manchester is to re-open the route from Rochdale to Bolton and run services from Rochdale or further east to Liverpool. There is about 5 miles of route to rebuild and some places will need demolition but such a service connects a lot of large towns together.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The TPE franchise should be abolished. Routes via Standedge should be transferred to the Northern franchise, NW England-Scotland services to the WCML franchise and all Hope Valley services (fast and stopping) to the EM franchise.

There should be more franchises here, not less.

 

[VT 390]

With the issues of TPE going to 6 carriages on south Trans Pennine services I think these services should divert to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central with a new Northern semi-fast service operating: Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Chinley, Dore & Totley, Sheffield, (all stations to Barnetby via Worksop), Habrough, Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes. This way most stations on the current south Trans Pennine route maintain there Manchester Airport services but also gain a new Liverpool service which would be 6 carriages all day as well as introducing new direct services to Manchester for Worksop, Retford and Gainsborough.

 

[VT 390]

If the Liverpool to Nottingham service transfers to Trans Pennine Express then I would also transfer the Nottingham to Leeds service to Trans Pennine Express as well, once it has been rerouted to run via Wakefield Westgate. This could be operated by 3 coach 185's and would mean all services between Sheffield and Nottingham could be the same operator and allow some Northern 195's to be moved to strengthen other Northern services.

 

[Japan0913]

Manchester and Liverpool mayors call for termination of Northern rail franchise
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1559115120
Even if a new car finally arrives at Northern Rail, Arriba may withdraw voluntarily due to such stupid demands?
The area covered by the Northern Rail is too large.
Do I need to re-edit including TransPennine Express (local service) and Merseyrail?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Manchester and Liverpool mayors call for termination of Northern rail franchise
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1559115120
Even if a new car finally arrives at Northern Rail, Arriba may withdraw voluntarily due to such stupid demands?
The area covered by the Northern Rail is too large.
Do I need to re-edit including TransPennine Express (local service) and Merseyrail?

This needs it's own thread. Also, Northern's new trains don't work properly yet, something out of their control.