Future St Pancras to Leeds services

[cactustwirly]

Currently the fastest St Pancras to Leeds service takes 3 hours which isn't competitive at all with the ECML, but the paths aren't exactly the most optimum.

The daytime services to Sheffield take 2 hours, and XC services to Leeds from Sheffield take 40 minutes.
Which is more like the ECML times, however with the Market Harborough upgrades, Derby station works, I reckon the journey could be done in 2hrs 35 minutes.
If the Leicester station area is remodelled, with that long 30mph speed limit removed, then I maybe the journey could be done in 2hrs 30 minutes.

So I propose, a fleet of new Bi Mode units, with 222 like acceleration, to be used on the fast Sheffield services, which will then be extended to Leeds.
Which provides a direct Leicester to Leeds link, an extra fast service from Sheffield to Leeds, and of course a 3rd tph from London to Leeds

 

[Iskra]

Which line are they using between Sheffield and Leeds?

Which platforms are they using at Leeds?

 

[swt_passenger]

The franchise spec doesn’t require ANY services to Leeds at all. I may have mentioned this already...

 

[ainsworth74]

Why? London to Leeds is well served by the ECML and will, in theory, be even better served once the IET timetable appears in the nearish future.

Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield have a plethora of a links to Leeds including direct and indirect options. Leicester is a single change away from Leeds (and I'm not convinced it's a particularly large market). Precious paths between Sheffield and Leeds (if there are any spare) are much better being used either to enhance local services or to support extra conventional ECML services.

 

[Iskra]

Why? London to Leeds is well served by the ECML and will, in theory, be even better served once the IET timetable appears in the nearish future.

Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield have a plethora of a links to Leeds including direct and indirect options. Leicester is a single change away from Leeds (and I'm not convinced it's a particularly large market). Precious paths between Sheffield and Leeds (if there are any spare) are much better being used either to enhance local services or to support extra conventional ECML services.

I agree there is no need for a Leeds-London service via the MML.

However, the current Sheffield-Leeds service is inadequate.

XC voyagers are rammed. The Northern semi-fast is busy, very slow and seems to wait a lot around Horbury and on the approach to Leeds. The Northern slows are glacial and circuitous.

I can certainly see the need for a 2nd genuinely fast Sheffield-Leeds service.

My main concern would be whether there is sufficient platform capacity at Leeds for it to terminate there. And if you could fit it in between Sheffield and Meadowhall.

 

[xotGD]

You could combine Leeds - Nottingham and Nottingham - London services into a single through service every hour. No need for extra paths.

 

[ainsworth74]

However, the current Sheffield-Leeds service is inadequate.

XC voyagers are rammed. The Northern semi-fast is busy, very slow and seems to wait a lot around Horbury and on the approach to Leeds. The Northern slows are glacial and circuitous.

I can certainly see the need for a 2nd genuinely fast Sheffield-Leeds service.

Yes no argument there! I think there's an element of wait and see involved here. Sheffield is supposed to be part of the Northern Connect network which may well help as well as benefiting from the various other rolling stock changes that are up coming.

We also need to wait and see how the XC franchise develops. It's a shame that their proposed timetable tweak never went ahead as that would have seen some additional peak services between Sheffield and Leeds which would have helped (particularly as they weren't long distance so wouldn't have already been full of passengers!).

That being said the links aren't terrible between the two with the fast Northern and the fast CrossCountry but they could certainly be better.

 

[Ianno87]

You could combine Leeds - Nottingham and Nottingham - London services into a single through service every hour. No need for extra paths.

...depends if the platform at Leeds is long enough....

 

[Bald Rick]

You could combine Leeds - Nottingham and Nottingham - London services into a single through service every hour. No need for extra paths.

...depends if the platform at Leeds is long enough....

And if using the same paths, a 4hr journey time wouldn’t be that attractive...

 

[BantamMenace]

Seen as we’re in the speculative part of the forum I think it makes more sense for an additional Leeds to Sheffield fast, a new Leeds to Leicester direct and other new connections to be delivered with a Leeds to Reading via Bedford and then EW Rail.

 

[DanDaDriver]

If the Leicester station area is remodelled, with that long 30mph speed limit removed, then I maybe the journey could be done in 2hrs 30 minutes.

30mph?

 

[Modron]

Seen as we’re in the speculative part of the forum I think it makes more sense for an additional Leeds to Sheffield fast, a new Leeds to Leicester direct and other new connections to be delivered with a Leeds to Reading via Bedford and then EW Rail.

Plausible, but XC would not like losing revenue on their services between Reading and Leeds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The current Leeds extensions, some run via Moorthorpe (as per XC) and some run via Mexborough and Doncaster, or used to. If you buy a ticket to Sheffield at Leeds, unless you pay extra and specify, it won't be valid via Doncaster thus wasting that extra capacity.

There isn't a case for a regular Leeds to St Pancras IMO, but there may be a case for linking Leeds with Leicester and for extra capacity to Sheffield and Derby/Nottingham.

But let's not have any silly ideas about extending to Carlisle and Glasgow via Settle!

 

[ainsworth74]

If you buy a ticket to Sheffield at Leeds, unless you pay extra and specify, it won't be valid via Doncaster thus wasting that extra capacity.

Other way around. There are tickets that are cheaper and thus routed "Not Via Doncaster" but the more expensive "Any Permitted" is valid via Doncaster.

 

[ainsworth74]

There isn't a case for a regular Leeds to St Pancras IMO, but there may be a case for linking Leeds with Leicester and for extra capacity to Sheffield and Derby/Nottingham.

Agreed. There's definetly a case for more inter-regional links between cities like Sheffield, Leeds, Bradford, Nottingham, Derby and Leicester. But the Leeds to London flow is perfectly well catered for via the ECML (at the determent of links down the ECML! Anyone fancy living at Retford and trying to go north or south?!). I suspect that if you introduced more Leeds to London services via Sheffield and tried to speed them up to make them more competitive you may have to harm existing inter-regional links to do it!

 

[Kite159]

Plausible, but XC would not like losing revenue on their services between Reading and Leeds.

Which considering the majority of services from Reading towards the North East bypass Leeds by going via Doncaster is a bit of a mute point.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Other way around. There are tickets that are cheaper and thus routed "Not Via Doncaster" but the more expensive "Any Permitted" is valid via Doncaster.

Though in my experience, the ticket office at Leeds will issue the "not via Doncaster" ticket unless you specifically ask for one that's valid via that route.

I was also told by a member of staff at Wakefield Westgate on a Northern strike day last autumn that my "any permitted" Batley to Nottingham ticket was NOT valid via Doncaster. As a result I had to use XC to Derby, a service that due to the Derby blockade passed almost within spitting distance of my final destination near Toton, only to head off towards Derby instead!

 

[yorkie]

I was also told by a member of staff at Wakefield Westgate on a Northern strike day last autumn that my "any permitted" Batley to Nottingham ticket was NOT valid via Doncaster. As a result I had to use XC to Derby, a service that due to the Derby blockade passed almost within spitting distance of my final destination near Toton, only to head off towards Derby instead!

I wouldn't trust a typical Northern ticket office to open a can of sardines that was already open, let alone advise on permitted routes

Of course it's valid. Via Grantham on maps GL+DL or via Sheffield on map SY.

 

[DanTrain]

You could combine Leeds - Nottingham and Nottingham - London services into a single through service every hour. No need for extra paths.

That’s actually quite a good idea, thereby giving Dronfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill and Ilkeston a London service. I forsee two main problems however. One is that it currently goes via Wakefield Kirkgate which is painfully slow so wouldn’t provide the second Sheffield-Leeds fast required (although this is planned to be rerouted via Westgate in the not-too-distant future). Second is it wouldn’t help Leeds-Leicester much as changing at Sheffield would be quicker than going via Nottingham.

That being said the links aren't terrible between the two with the fast Northern and the fast CrossCountry but they could certainly be better.

Those Northern’s don’t count as fast. National Rail Enquiries routes you on XC, so that’s what many people will do, and it is much faster. No wonder these trains are crowded with 1 voyager an hour providing the main service between Sheffield and Leeds!