Future routes for Open Access operators

[Bartsimho]

This only makes sense for connecting flights, and Heathrow is horrible for getting to anywhere other than Paddington or Croasrail.

Might be nicer when the Western Rail Link is built as it allows GWML to the west

 

[zwk500]

Might be nicer when the Western Rail Link is built as it allows GWML to the west

You mean 'if' in 20ft tall capital letters, painted on Terminal 5's roof.

 

[rapmastaj]

Raises an interesting question - Norwich quite regularly pops up as a terminus for extension proposals and additional routes (thinks - don’t mention EWR - oh damn!) but where would you want to get to from Norwich by rail that’s not already served?

The obvious Bristol to Norwich via EWR - and if you do it by extending Cambridge - Norwich you don't need new paths through Ely.

 

[Bartsimho]

The obvious Bristol to Norwich via EWR - and if you do it by extending Cambridge - Norwich you don't need new paths through Ely.

That would be a good route and could serve the EWR traffic as well as avoid the London premium.

 

[JonathanH]

The obvious Bristol to Norwich via EWR - and if you do it by extending Cambridge - Norwich you don't need new paths through Ely.

It isn't at all obvious, nor would extending existing services be open access.

It isn't Cambridge to Norwich either, the trains run through to Stansted. Let's also not forget that it is the 'slow' between Ely and Norwich, there are stations to serve between Oxford and Cambridge, and there are already plenty of services between Swindon and Bristol with capacity, other than for the Saturday peaks to and from London.

Bristol to Norwich would be a nightmare service to set up from scratch, as it would require multiple traincrew depots and stabling, which may well be why there hasn't been any suggestion that Oxford to Milton Keynes services start by running from Bristol.

 

[Bantamzen]

It would make sense where if paths could be found, airlines ran branded trains as connections from flights (luggage cars potentially?) from places such as Heathrow to destinations it serves and replaces the flights such as: "Platform 2 for the xx:xx British Airways service to Edinburgh calling at: flight destination A, flight destination B and Edinburgh, this train is formed of X coaches"

This only makes sense for connecting flights, and Heathrow is horrible for getting to anywhere other than Paddington or Croasrail.

Indeed, getting a connecting flight replacement rail service away from Heathrow and to it's destination in a reasonable timescale would be difficult. What would be the point of a service that would take say 4 hours to get to Edinburgh when a flight would take just over an hour?

Edit: However maybe having headcode sharing from airports already served by long distance routes. For example a flight from New York to Manchester could code share with TPE (once their issues are sorted out!) for destinations such as Leeds, York or Newcastle. I

 

[LUYMun]

As someone in this thread had suggested, could a south coast to north England service be viable for an open-access operation? It might be worth thinking to stop at the airport stations so passengers can transfer between airports without an internal flight.

A Southampton-Liverpool service is what I come up with, starting at Southampton Central and calls at Southampton Airport Parkway, Woking (for Heathrow), then going to Clapham Junction, for transfers to Gatwick Airport, and Shepherd's Bush for passengers wishing to head to the Westfield Shopping Centre as well as London in general. After that t would head up the WCML to Bletchley (for provisional connection with East-West Rail), Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Might work out with spare Class 350s from LNWR, limiting to 8 coaches to fit in the platform at Shepherd's Bush.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As someone in this thread had suggested, could a south coast to north England service be viable for an open-access operation? It might be worth thinking to stop at the airport stations so passengers can transfer between airports without an internal flight.

A Southampton-Liverpool service is what I come up with, starting at Southampton Central and calls at Southampton Airport Parkway, Woking (for Heathrow), then going to Clapham Junction, for transfers to Gatwick Airport, and Shepherd's Bush for passengers wishing to head to the Westfield Shopping Centre as well as London in general. After that t would head up the WCML to Bletchley (for provisional connection with East-West Rail), Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Might work out with spare Class 350s from LNWR, limiting to 8 coaches to fit in the platform at Shepherd's Bush.

Won't work I'm afraid. You could just get XC to Crewe and change there. Or go via the Victoria Line which would probably be faster.

 

[zwk500]

As someone in this thread had suggested, could a south coast to north England service be viable for an open-access operation?

Probably not

It might be worth thinking to stop at the airport stations so passengers can transfer between airports without an internal flight.

Definitely not - people don't travel from airport to airport, but from city to city via an airport or two. Trains avoid having to go via the airport by stopping in the city.

A Southampton-Liverpool service is what I come up with, starting at Southampton Central and calls at Southampton Airport Parkway, Woking (for Heathrow), then going to Clapham Junction, for transfers to Gatwick Airport, and Shepherd's Bush for passengers wishing to head to the Westfield Shopping Centre as well as London in general. After that t would head up the WCML to Bletchley (for provisional connection with East-West Rail), Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Might work out with spare Class 350s from LNWR, limiting to 8 coaches to fit in the platform at Shepherd's Bush.

This would need to go via Virginia Water, would be horribly slow stuck on the Slow lines of the WCML and wouldn't have enough paths available for a viable service. It'd also be god-awful performance as it couldn't go through many more awkward areas if you tried.

It's been said before, OAO needs London at one end.

 

[adrock1976]

Probably not

Definitely not - people don't travel from airport to airport, but from city to city via an airport or two. Trains avoid having to go via the airport by stopping in the city.

This would need to go via Virginia Water, would be horribly slow stuck on the Slow lines of the WCML and wouldn't have enough paths available for a viable service. It'd also be god-awful performance as it couldn't go through many more awkward areas if you tried.

It's been said before, OAO needs London at one end.

Regarding the final sentence, is Y Geraint (Cardiff - Holyhead via Wrexham) is an OA operated on behalf of the Senedd, or is that a normal service today?

Based on my unscientific observations when I have visited Wales, I have never met any fellow passengers who are travelling to Cardiff from the north coast, but have met fellow passengers who are travelling to North West Region, the West Midlands, and London.

 

[Dr Day]

Y Geraint (Cardiff - Holyhead via Wrexham) is an OA operated on behalf of the Senedd, or is that a normal service today?

It is a 'normal service' - and I would be extremely surprised if it covered its costs the way an open access operator would have to, particularly with catering-related costs. I believe it was only known as the 'WG express' as it was specified by them and added into the Wales & Borders specification in Arriva times - originally via Crewe.

 

[Bald Rick]

As someone in this thread had suggested, could a south coast to north England service be viable for an open-access operation? It might be worth thinking to stop at the airport stations so passengers can transfer between airports without an internal flight.

A Southampton-Liverpool service is what I come up with, starting at Southampton Central and calls at Southampton Airport Parkway, Woking (for Heathrow), then going to Clapham Junction, for transfers to Gatwick Airport, and Shepherd's Bush for passengers wishing to head to the Westfield Shopping Centre as well as London in general. After that t would head up the WCML to Bletchley (for provisional connection with East-West Rail), Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Might work out with spare Class 350s from LNWR, limiting to 8 coaches to fit in the platform at Shepherd's Bush.

That would be highly abstractive.

And no one would use it for long distance services as it would be much slower than the alternatives. And, specifically, there are no internal flights between any of the airports you mention, and with the exception of a tiny number of passengers transferring between London airports, people don’t do it anyway.

 

[zwk500]

Regarding the final sentence, is Y Geraint (Cardiff - Holyhead via Wrexham) is an OA operated on behalf of the Senedd, or is that a normal service today?

Fairly sure that's a franchised service operated by TfW.

 

[cle]

It's tough, other than newly wired/stocked London tendrils to the main trunks.

Or competition from London to Manchester and Leeds via a fast MML pattern (Rio) - which I often come back to.

On a similar note, Cambridge to ECML was often mentioned as a future thing, usually Leeds. So was a futurew Bedford starter to Leeds. I wonder if instead Cambridge-Bedford (reverse, I know) - MML - Leeds might be at all appealing. Slower if via Nottingham of course, and Cambridge-Leicester already exists. Perhaps not.

And then Reading - Oxford - EWR - Manchester in a post-HS2 world, via Stone which will have capacity.

 

[zwk500]

It's tough, other than newly wired/stocked London tendrils to the main trunks.

Or competition from London to Manchester and Leeds via a fast MML pattern (Rio) - which I often come back to.

Weren't the passenger loadings terrible on project Rio?

 

[cle]

Weren't the passenger loadings terrible on project Rio?

Yes, 20 years ago. Many things on the railway change. It wasn't well marketed or positioned, St Pancras was a dump, it frankly wasn't framed as competition as it was a 'rail replacement' option, not a real service. I don't think that is any basis for not doing something today. See airline routes, and how cyclical they can be, or how the management of them determines their success.

Manchester and Leeds have changed a lot in 20 years, grown in population, the Manc unis are merged/bigger than ever, competition on the railway is more known etc etc etc.... no Watford/Manc service any more, many things have changed. Feels like if there was a remaining shot to take, this might be one - includes London, includes new routing, new city pairs (Leicester to Manc/Leeds, Derby/Manc)

If you had to do one service, maybe a 2x80x set-up of London - Bedford - Leicester - Derby (split) - Sheffield/Leeds AND Stockport/Manchester - or two hourly.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, 20 years ago. Many things on the railway change. It wasn't well marketed or positioned, St Pancras was a dump, it frankly wasn't framed as competition as it was a 'rail replacement' option, not a real service. I don't think that is any basis for not doing something today. See airline routes, and how cyclical they can be, or how the management of them determines their success.

Manchester and Leeds have changed a lot in 20 years, grown in population, the Manc unis are merged/bigger than ever, competition on the railway is more known etc etc etc.... no Watford/Manc service any more, many things have changed. Feels like if there was a remaining shot to take, this might be one - includes London, includes new routing, new city pairs (Leicester to Manc/Leeds, Derby/Manc)

You're sure it's nothing to do with the much longer journey times? The MML is slower than either the ECML or WCML and that can't be reasonably changed. Bedford and Cambridge won't sustain a service on their own account so all you have is a service that would be about as competitive as a fun runner at the Olympic games.

If you had to do one service, maybe a 2x80x set-up of London - Bedford - Leicester - Derby (split) - Sheffield/Leeds AND Stockport/Manchester - or two hourly.

How would this pass the abstraction test?

 

[Bartsimho]

You're sure it's nothing to do with the much longer journey times? The MML is slower than either the ECML or WCML and that can't be reasonably changed. Bedford and Cambridge won't sustain a service on their own account so all you have is a service that would be about as competitive as a fun runner at the Olympic games.

How would this pass the abstraction test?

It might pass abstraction if it missed Sheffield and it might have to looking at Nunnery Junction. Split at Chesterfield on Platform 3 with one going via Barrow Hill and stopping at Rotherham and the other via Dore South Curve.

 

[Bald Rick]

See airline routes, and how cyclical they can be, or how the management of them determines their success.

Indeed. But that’s a very different business model to open access.

 

[cle]

You're sure it's nothing to do with the much longer journey times? The MML is slower than either the ECML or WCML and that can't be reasonably changed. Bedford and Cambridge won't sustain a service on their own account so all you have is a service that would be about as competitive as a fun runner at the Olympic games.

How would this pass the abstraction test?

Maybe without Derby and Sheffield. I don't think it is abstractive to Manchester or Leeds. Might make it faster too.

Journey times are slower, same with Chiltern to Birmingham or LNR to Crewe/Brum - but it's a choice punters can make. If both were possible under 3 hours, it's still quicker than driving.

Re non-stopping, Sheffield isn't a problem as only affects Leeds which it has services to. Derby-Stockport/Manchester is one of the newer pairs, not necessarily a major one, but along with Leicester-Stockport/Manchester (and Leicester-Leeds) we're connecting the two main northern cities to some of the larger EM ones.

Ideally it would have a Luton call (cover the old Watford Herts/Manc catchment, maybe) - but Bedford might make more sense for EWR. Stevenage manages to justify calls north from a wide area. Luton or Bedford/Leicester/Derby/Stockport/Manc... no London- Leicester/Derby tickets sold (but why not...if service and fares are different, new market Lumo story...etc)

 

[stevieinselby]

The obvious Bristol to Norwich via EWR - and if you do it by extending Cambridge - Norwich you don't need new paths through Ely.

I do think it's surprising (and disappointing) that there is no direct service from Oxford to Swindon and Bristol.

 

[JonathanH]

I do think it's surprising (and disappointing) that there is no direct service from Oxford to Swindon and Bristol.

It isn't surprising, because the demand can be covered by the services from Oxford to Didcot, and Didcot to Swindon and Bristol.

When it was tried in the late 1990s, the demand didn't fill a two-coach train, and it was decided that the line capacity would be better used by services to London.

Not something for an open-access operator either.

 

[cle]

I think EWR could explore extensions west, if workable - but I'd think Reading more realistic than Swindon and beyond, cool as that would be. I'd think to MKC or Cambridge max.

There will be good overlapping on the various 2tph pairs, so needn't have end to end risks. I.e. an Ipswich might begin at Bedford.

 

[stevieinselby]

It isn't surprising, because the demand can be covered by the services from Oxford to Didcot, and Didcot to Swindon and Bristol.

When it was tried in the late 1990s, the demand didn't fill a two-coach train, and it was decided that the line capacity would be better used by services to London.

Not something for an open-access operator either.

Passenger numbers overall have increased over the last 25 years ... there are things that might work now even if they didn't back then.
There's also plenty of potential for opening local stations along the line – Milton Park, Grove & Wantage, Wootton Bassett, Corsham – which I'm sure could generate enough traffic to support a stopping service from Oxford to Bristol if it could be pathed, although whether the investment needed in new stations makes it a suitable route for OOA I guess is another question.

 

[Bartsimho]

Passenger numbers overall have increased over the last 25 years ... there are things that might work now even if they didn't back then.
There's also plenty of potential for opening local stations along the line – Milton Park, Grove & Wantage, Wootton Bassett, Corsham – which I'm sure could generate enough traffic to support a stopping service from Oxford to Bristol if it could be pathed, although whether the investment needed in new stations makes it a suitable route for OOA I guess is another question.

If the OAO is willing to fund it maybe.

 

[The Planner]

If the OAO is willing to fund it maybe.

More chance of getting 6 numbers at the weekend.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the OAO is willing to fund it maybe.

When has an OA operator ever built a new station?
Even if they did, what would then stop the incumbent TOC also calling at the station, blowing a hole in the business case?

 

[stevieinselby]

When has an OA operator ever built a new station?
Even if they did, what would then stop the incumbent TOC also calling at the station, blowing a hole in the business case?

In this particular case, unlikely that they would want to – they are local stations, and the only existing services along that line are intercity services – I can't imagine GWR wanting to add stops for towns of c.15,000 on their long-distance services.
But in general, it could be part of the contract – eg, if the OOA funds the new station then they have exclusive rights to stops there for 10 years, and no other TOC/OOA is allowed to call there without their consent unless they cease operating within that period.

 

[swt_passenger]

In this particular case, unlikely that they would want to – they are local stations, and the only existing services along that line are intercity services – I can't imagine GWR wanting to add stops for towns of c.15,000 on their long-distance services.
But in general, it could be part of the contract – eg, if the OOA funds the new station then they have exclusive rights to stops there for 10 years, and no other TOC/OOA is allowed to call there without their consent unless they cease operating within that period.

So how did these proposed new stations get on in DfT’s new stations review system? If they’re not being progressed, it will presumably be because there’s no reasonable case to open them?

 

[donnyrailman]

Would be good to see something like a Hull - Birmingham route - maybe something for Hull trains. Get East Yorkshire and Doncaster more connected to Birmingham and cities along that route. Give CrossCountry some competition as their prices are so high