Future routes for Open Access operators

[LUYMun]

And how does that avoid abstracting revenue from SWR?

My train of thought was about having fewer stopping patterns than the current service offered by SWR. Most Weymouth trains call at all stations to Poole or Bournemouth, then on a semi-fast basis to Southampton Central, then fast to London. The OAO I thought of would've primarily called at the central stations on the South West before heading to London, beating SWR in journey times as well as price (a potential for low-cost operation).

 

[zwk500]

My train of thought was about having fewer stopping patterns than the current service offered by SWR. Most Weymouth trains call at all stations to Poole or Bournemouth, then on a semi-fast basis to Southampton Central, then fast to London. The OAO I thought of would've primarily called at the central stations on the South West before heading to London, beating SWR in journey times as well as price (a potential for low-cost operation).

But it's all SWR revenue that's being abstracted due to the way they got an integrated franchise. How many new passengers are you expecting this service to attract? And that's before you get to the issues of trying to path a decent run from Weymouth to Southampton with the Moreton Single and the lack of loops (Brockenhurst only, and even then in the down direction watch out for the Lymington shuttle).

I did suggest in an NR study at one point a rather ambitious scheme for Bournemouth station that would have permitted overtaking in both directions as well as providing more flexibility for reversing trains, but that'd be well beyond the scope of an OAO to fund.

 

[Bartsimho]

But it's all SWR revenue that's being abstracted due to the way they got an integrated franchise. How many new passengers are you expecting this service to attract? And that's before you get to the issues of trying to path a decent run from Weymouth to Southampton with the Moreton Single and the lack of loops (Brockenhurst only, and even then in the down direction watch out for the Lymington shuttle).

I did suggest in an NR study at one point a rather ambitious scheme for Bournemouth station that would have permitted overtaking in both directions as well as providing more flexibility for reversing trains, but that'd be well beyond the scope of an OAO to fund.

Just a thing as it looks like it was originally double tracked where the Moreton Single is now but that was a stupid idea to remove a track if the line isn't being fully closed if it was to save money. You have to move all the signals and connect them again for the single track to be bi-directional as well.

 

[zwk500]

Just a thing as it looks like it was originally double tracked where the Moreton Single is now but that was a stupid idea to remove a track if the line isn't being fully closed if it was to save money. You have to move all the signals and connect them again for the single track to be bi-directional as well.

The Moreton Single is now identified as a key constraint and yes it is proposed to redouble. And yes it will be a pain to do, not least because it will likely need the power supply fiddling with to accommodate the service uplift that would justify it.

 

[miklcct]

My train of thought was about having fewer stopping patterns than the current service offered by SWR. Most Weymouth trains call at all stations to Poole or Bournemouth, then on a semi-fast basis to Southampton Central, then fast to London. The OAO I thought of would've primarily called at the central stations on the South West before heading to London, beating SWR in journey times as well as price (a potential for low-cost operation).

I don't think there is track capacity east of Bournemouth to do that unless that section is quadrupled.

 

[adrock1976]

Thinking about non London OA routes, would the below route massively fail any abstraction tests?

Glasgow Central - Norwich (via Dumfries, Preston, Doncaster, and Lincoln Central), calling Paisley Gilmour Street*, Kilwinning*, Troon*, Prestwick Town*, Mauchline (if reopened - would require platform on the Annbank line side), Dumfries, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley Manchester Road, Hebden Bridge, Elland (if reopened), Brighouse, Mirfield for Transpennine Route, Wakefield Kirkgate, Doncaster, Gainsborough Lea Road (depending upon the platforms), Lincoln Central, Spalding for Boston and Kings Lynn bus link, Peterborough, March for Wisbech bus link, Thetford, and Norwich. *Pick up only from Glasgow, set down only to Glasgow.

Obviously, this would have to fit somewhere between Gretna Jct - Preston, any freight trains Doncaster - Peterborough via Lincoln, and the junctions at Ely. Also, the above route is by no means the shortest by any stretch of the imagination at all.

The route via Paisley, Troon, and the shortcut via Annbank is due to the single track sections between Barrhead and Kilmarnock, otherwise it could have been sent that way.

New links would be created between Ayrshire and North West Region, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, and Burnley to Wakefield, Doncaster, Lincoln, and Anglia Region, Lincoln to Norwich, and other overlapping links too.

A suggested frequency could be every 4 hours with departures from the end points and the middle at say 08:00, 12:00, 16:00, and 20:00. I admit that I have not worked out exactly how to fit this hypothetical service around existing trains, nor have identified a starting point to build around.

 

[zwk500]

Thinking about non London OA routes, would the below route massively fail any abstraction tests?

You might well pass the abstraction tests, on the grounds that it's going to generate naff all revenue. You can't run a long-distance service and then stop at every moderately-sized town along the way.

I just don't see what your core business actually is on this route. It feels like just a bunch of secondary flows jammed together in a vaguely meandering line.
The routing is extraordinary as well, Glasgow-Carlisle via GSW, WCML to Preston, East Lancs to Hebden Bridge, Calder Valley to Wakefield, then Hare Park Curve onto the Leeds branch of the ECML before the full length of the GNGE and Peterborough-Norwich via the Ely West curve.

You might have tried Glasgow-Preston via WCML then East Lancs and Calder valley to Wakefield, Pontefract and Knottingly then Doncaster down the ECML fast to P'bro to Ely terminate (maybe a Cambridge extension as a future option). Calls at Motherwell, Carstairs*, Lockerbie*, Carlisle, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley Manc Rd, Brighouse*, Wakefield Kirkgate, Pontefract* (one of them), Doncaster, maybe Grantham/Newark*, P'bro, March, Ely. But it'll still be bleeding money from day 1 and be operationally next to impossible.

* - most likely limited service, either alternating with a paired station, first/late trains only or PU/SD restrictions.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thinking about non London OA routes, would the below route massively fail any abstraction tests?

as @zwk500 says - abstract what?

the trip would be 10 hours each way, which means in reality you could have at best two through trips each way a day, with another couple part trips. It would be horrendously expensive to operate - crewing would be horribly inefficient on such low frequency. it’s reasonable to assume that the effective subsidy required per passenger would be on a par with the Caley sleeper.

 

[Magdalia]

Thinking about non London OA routes, would the below route massively fail any abstraction tests?

Glasgow Central - Norwich (via Dumfries, Preston, Doncaster, and Lincoln Central), calling Paisley Gilmour Street*, Kilwinning*, Troon*, Prestwick Town*, Mauchline (if reopened - would require platform on the Annbank line side), Dumfries, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley Manchester Road, Hebden Bridge, Elland (if reopened), Brighouse, Mirfield for Transpennine Route, Wakefield Kirkgate, Doncaster, Gainsborough Lea Road (depending upon the platforms), Lincoln Central, Spalding for Boston and Kings Lynn bus link, Peterborough, March for Wisbech bus link, Thetford, and Norwich. *Pick up only from Glasgow, set down only to Glasgow.

Obviously, this would have to fit somewhere between Gretna Jct - Preston, any freight trains Doncaster - Peterborough via Lincoln, and the junctions at Ely. Also, the above route is by no means the shortest by any stretch of the imagination at all.

The route via Paisley, Troon, and the shortcut via Annbank is due to the single track sections between Barrhead and Kilmarnock, otherwise it could have been sent that way.

New links would be created between Ayrshire and North West Region, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, and Burnley to Wakefield, Doncaster, Lincoln, and Anglia Region, Lincoln to Norwich, and other overlapping links too.

A suggested frequency could be every 4 hours with departures from the end points and the middle at say 08:00, 12:00, 16:00, and 20:00. I admit that I have not worked out exactly how to fit this hypothetical service around existing trains, nor have identified a starting point to build around.

From the Fenland end this looks like a not particularly good NENTA itinerary proposal, badly chosen to run on a day when the ECML is shut between Peterborough and Doncaster.

You might fill a train if you ran it once every 10 years!

 

[JKF]

Harrogate or Bradford (interchange?) to London via Micklefield. Potentially faster than LNER, adds more intercity services to these locations, kind of how Hull Trains succeeded.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Harrogate or Bradford (interchange?) to London via Micklefield. Potentially faster than LNER, adds more intercity services to these locations, kind of how Hull Trains succeeded.

Huddersfield would be better probably as Bradford and Harrogate already get trains to London

 

[zwk500]

Harrogate or Bradford (interchange?) to London via Micklefield. Potentially faster than LNER, adds more intercity services to these locations, kind of how Hull Trains succeeded.

Doesn't pass the abstraction test unless you start lobbing in fairly random calls. Especially as Harrogate now gets a more regular service from LNER.

Huddersfield would be better probably as Bradford and Harrogate already get trains to London

Huddersfield via Micklefield is rather a long way round. Huddersfield to London via Pontefract or Fitzwilliam might have a reasonable chance though, if GC can find some paths to make it work.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Huddersfield via Micklefield is rather a long way round. Huddersfield to London via Pontefract or Fitzwilliam might have a reasonable chance though, if GC can find some paths to make it work.

Wouldn't it be easier (if viable) to just add a Huddersfield stop into the current Bradford services that are literally just 1 junction away.

 

[zwk500]

Wouldn't it be easier (if viable) to just add a Huddersfield stop into the current Bradford services that are literally just 1 junction away.

It'd add quite a lot into the journey to Bradford as you've got the double length + reversal to factor in (and I don't think you'd get the platform reliably at Hudds to do it without tripping everybody up at the moment).

 

[Silenos]

From the Fenland end this looks like a not particularly good NENTA itinerary proposal, badly chosen to run on a day when the ECML is shut between Peterborough and Doncaster.

You might fill a train if you ran it once every 10 years!

Raises an interesting question - Norwich quite regularly pops up as a terminus for extension proposals and additional routes (thinks - don’t mention EWR - oh damn!) but where would you want to get to from Norwich by rail that’s not already served?

 

[Bantamzen]

Thinking about non London OA routes, would the below route massively fail any abstraction tests?

Glasgow Central - Norwich (via Dumfries, Preston, Doncaster, and Lincoln Central), calling Paisley Gilmour Street*, Kilwinning*, Troon*, Prestwick Town*, Mauchline (if reopened - would require platform on the Annbank line side), Dumfries, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley Manchester Road, Hebden Bridge, Elland (if reopened), Brighouse, Mirfield for Transpennine Route, Wakefield Kirkgate, Doncaster, Gainsborough Lea Road (depending upon the platforms), Lincoln Central, Spalding for Boston and Kings Lynn bus link, Peterborough, March for Wisbech bus link, Thetford, and Norwich. *Pick up only from Glasgow, set down only to Glasgow.

Obviously, this would have to fit somewhere between Gretna Jct - Preston, any freight trains Doncaster - Peterborough via Lincoln, and the junctions at Ely. Also, the above route is by no means the shortest by any stretch of the imagination at all.

The route via Paisley, Troon, and the shortcut via Annbank is due to the single track sections between Barrhead and Kilmarnock, otherwise it could have been sent that way.

New links would be created between Ayrshire and North West Region, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Blackburn, and Burnley to Wakefield, Doncaster, Lincoln, and Anglia Region, Lincoln to Norwich, and other overlapping links too.

A suggested frequency could be every 4 hours with departures from the end points and the middle at say 08:00, 12:00, 16:00, and 20:00. I admit that I have not worked out exactly how to fit this hypothetical service around existing trains, nor have identified a starting point to build around.

I have to ask why you would have this service miss Yorkshire's biggest hub, but serve both Brighouse & Mirfield, neither of which see much traffic serving Leeds? If there was ever to be a service from Glasgow through Yorkshire, Leeds would surely have to be served?

 

[greyman42]

I have to ask why you would have this service miss Yorkshire's biggest hub, but serve both Brighouse & Mirfield, neither of which see much traffic serving Leeds? If there was ever to be a service from Glasgow through Yorkshire, Leeds would surely have to be served?

Going via the Settle-Carlisle would serve Leeds.

 

[Magdalia]

Raises an interesting question - Norwich quite regularly pops up as a terminus for extension proposals and additional routes (thinks - don’t mention EWR - oh damn!) but where would you want to get to from Norwich by rail that’s not already served?

That's easy. Leicester and Birmingham. Places that had 5 through trains from Norwich every weekday in the 1980s.

Actually, the thing not to mention is paths through Ely.

 

[Ken H]

That's easy. Leicester and Birmingham. Places that had 5 through trains from Norwich every weekday in the 1980s.

Actually, the thing not to mention is paths through Ely.

There used to be a Brum - Ipswich train back in the 80's. Maybe you could get a little netgwork going. But is there demand in E Anglia?

 

[adrock1976]

You might well pass the abstraction tests, on the grounds that it's going to generate naff all revenue. You can't run a long-distance service and then stop at every moderately-sized town along the way.

I just don't see what your core business actually is on this route. It feels like just a bunch of secondary flows jammed together in a vaguely meandering line.
The routing is extraordinary as well, Glasgow-Carlisle via GSW, WCML to Preston, East Lancs to Hebden Bridge, Calder Valley to Wakefield, then Hare Park Curve onto the Leeds branch of the ECML before the full length of the GNGE and Peterborough-Norwich via the Ely West curve.

You might have tried Glasgow-Preston via WCML then East Lancs and Calder valley to Wakefield, Pontefract and Knottingly then Doncaster down the ECML fast to P'bro to Ely terminate (maybe a Cambridge extension as a future option). Calls at Motherwell, Carstairs*, Lockerbie*, Carlisle, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley Manc Rd, Brighouse*, Wakefield Kirkgate, Pontefract* (one of them), Doncaster, maybe Grantham/Newark*, P'bro, March, Ely. But it'll still be bleeding money from day 1 and be operationally next to impossible.

* - most likely limited service, either alternating with a paired station, first/late trains only or PU/SD restrictions.

as @zwk500 says - abstract what?

the trip would be 10 hours each way, which means in reality you could have at best two through trips each way a day, with another couple part trips. It would be horrendously expensive to operate - crewing would be horribly inefficient on such low frequency. it’s reasonable to assume that the effective subsidy required per passenger would be on a par with the Caley sleeper.

I knew that before posting my suggestion that realistically, there would be a better chance of finding Elvis still alive and well hiding in the broom cupboard at Prestwick Airport.

The reason I suggested via Dumfries, Preston, Hebden Bridge, etc was to avoid joining the list of various suggested routes via Appleby as that always seems to be a common theme every so often.

From the Fenland end this looks like a not particularly good NENTA itinerary proposal, badly chosen to run on a day when the ECML is shut between Peterborough and Doncaster.

You might fill a train if you ran it once every 10 years!

Is NENTA a transport association organisation? I have never heard of or seen it mentioned before anywhere on the forum.

Raises an interesting question - Norwich quite regularly pops up as a terminus for extension proposals and additional routes (thinks - don’t mention EWR - oh damn!) but where would you want to get to from Norwich by rail that’s not already served?

I did think about when the present day Liverpool - Norwich eventually gets broken at Nottingham, I thought about retaining a link to Yorkshire Region - albeit not Sheffield.

I have to ask why you would have this service miss Yorkshire's biggest hub, but serve both Brighouse & Mirfield, neither of which see much traffic serving Leeds? If there was ever to be a service from Glasgow through Yorkshire, Leeds would surely have to be served?

I did take into consideration of Mirfield - Leeds - Hambleton Jct being far too congested as it shares track with trains from west of the Pennines.

Also, GC calls at Brighouse and Mirfield on the Bradford trains too.

 

[Magdalia]

Is NENTA a transport association organisation? I have never heard of or seen it mentioned before anywhere on the forum.

NENTA Traintours operated for more than 30 years running excursion trains from the Norwich area (NENTA is an acronym for North East Norfolk Travellers Association).

I think that they did not resume operation after the pandemic and sadly Ray Davies, the driving force behind NENTA, passed away earlier this year. Ray Davies was a Lancastrian and had a "thing" for the Copy Pit route, for example this on 6 Bells:

Six Bells Junction

Every so often I fancy a complete change. Having recently taken over the railtour column in Rail Express.... what - you didn't know? - shame on you! As penance I insist you rush out and buy a copy of the mag as soon as you can!! Sorry, where was I? Oh yes, having recently taken over the railtour column in Rail Express I am now seeing a much greater selection of railtour "offerings" and I decided it was about time I went out and tried a few of them out for size. NENTA Train Tours have been going for some time and run tours from East Anglia to destinations all over the country, and beyond. Although primarily for the non-enthusiast market, some of them also include options to travel on preserved railways.

 

[adrock1976]

NENTA Traintours operated for more than 30 years running excursion trains from the Norwich area (NENTA is an acronym for North East Norfolk Travellers Association).

I think that they did not resume operation after the pandemic and sadly Ray Davies, the driving force behind NENTA, passed away earlier this year. Ray Davies was a Lancastrian and had a "thing" for the Copy Pit route, for example this on 6 Bells:

Six Bells Junction

Many thanks for the info.

 

[Bantamzen]

Going via the Settle-Carlisle would serve Leeds.

It might be a better route for such a proposal, well at least as far as Leeds as an alternative to the limit XC services via Edinburgh.

I did take into consideration of Mirfield - Leeds - Hambleton Jct being far too congested as it shares track with trains from west of the Pennines.

However once TRU has completed there may well be more capacity. Alternatively it could replace the Leeds-Dewsbury-Manchester path between Leeds & Hebden Bridge.

Also, GC calls at Brighouse and Mirfield on the Bradford trains too.

The CG services are way too infrequent to be useful for anyone other than London passengers, so not useful for any interchanges really.

But being candid for a moment, I'm not sure that your proposed route has many merits at all. Certainly the end to end route is not likely to see much demand by rail, there isn't even an air route between the two cities. And having missed out two, maybe even three major cities en route that might have at least made it a tiny bit as useful as the Norwich-Liverpool service, it is really hard to see what purpose this would serve, other than choosing two points on the UK map and trying to make a service between them work. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a little more direct connectivity from cities around the north of England to elsewhere around the nation. But I really think this is too long a route, missing too many key hubs and serving too few large population centres, whilst crossing many major routes. It would be a nightmare to keep to schedule without some serious padding, and as an end-to-end route would not compete with travel via London.

 

[Trainguy34]

It would make sense where if paths could be found, airlines ran branded trains as connections from flights (luggage cars potentially?) from places such as Heathrow to destinations it serves and replaces the flights such as: "Platform 2 for the xx:xx British Airways service to Edinburgh calling at: flight destination A, flight destination B and Edinburgh, this train is formed of X coaches"

 

[zwk500]

It would make sense where if paths could be found, airlines ran branded trains from places such as Heathrow to destinations it serves and replaces the flights such as: "Platform 2 for the xx:xx British Airways service to Edinburgh calling at: flight destination A, flight destination B and Edinburgh, this train is formed of X coaches"

This only makes sense for connecting flights, and Heathrow is horrible for getting to anywhere other than Paddington or Croasrail.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This only makes sense for connecting flights, and Heathrow is horrible for getting to anywhere other than Paddington or Croasrail.

Could go via Greenford Branch then past South Ruislip or (because it's closed) via Acton East Junction and Neasden Junction to get on the Chiltern Mainline/via Aylesbury to get to East West Rail to get to the WCML.
Could also reach the MML via Acton East Junction and Brent Curve Junction
Could get to the ECML via Acton East Junction, overground for a bit, then Harringay Junction.

Paths might be difficult, but not impossible on most of those.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could go via Greenford Branch then past South Ruislip or (because it's closed) via Acton East Junction and Neasden Junction to get on the Chiltern Mainline/via Aylesbury to get to East West Rail to get to the WCML.
Could also reach the MML via Acton East Junction and Brent Curve Junction
Could get to the ECML via Acton East Junction, overground for a bit, then Harringay Junction.

Paths might be difficult, but not impossible on most of those.

By the time you’ve done all that, you could be in Manchester on HS2 having changed at OOC…

 

[zwk500]

Could go via Greenford Branch then past South Ruislip or (because it's closed) via Acton East Junction and Neasden Junction to get on the Chiltern Mainline/via Aylesbury to get to East West Rail to get to the WCML.
Could also reach the MML via Acton East Junction and Brent Curve Junction
Could get to the ECML via Acton East Junction, overground for a bit, then Harringay Junction.

Paths might be difficult, but not impossible on most of those.

By the time you danced around all of that the flight will comfortably beat the train.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

By the time you’ve done all that, you could be in Manchester on HS2 having changed at OOC…

By the time you danced around all of that the flight will comfortably beat the train.

Doesn't stop me pointing out where the lines are (also nice accidental synchronisation)

 

[Bald Rick]

Doesn't stop me pointing out where the lines are (also nice accidental synchronisation)

The lines to do that have been there nearly 30 years - and it hasn’t happened. I wonder why?