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Future routes for Open Access operators

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zwk500

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What about a service from London or West Mids going via Denton after Stockport to reach Victoria and then Bolton-Chorley-Preston or Bolton-Blackburn? An 80x train or bi-mode loco would suffice rather than Denton having to be electrified.
This would abstract far more revenue than the new business it generated. You'd also need a path across Heaton Norris Jn, let alone through Victoria to the far side of Salford Crescent.

The best hope for Bolton or Blackburn to get London trains is to rejig the Avanti peak reliefs for 1 up/1 down extensions off the core route. However in today's cash-strapped times the additional operating cost just isn't going to be justified. I appreciate the changes are unfortunate and frustrating.
 
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mike57

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small issue of border controls
Its actually the border control issue that has killed off the existing daily through service from St Pancras to Marne-le-Vallee. Providing a full set of staff for one train per day is just not cost effective. And its no good blaming it on Brexit, as border controls on our recent trip were no different from previous pre Brexit/Covid ones apart from getting a stamp in our passport.

Currently each calling point would need controls and security, and there is no way that more than a couple of trains a day could be filled. Until a way can be found to complete the formalities on board with just security at boarding points UK - Continental routes outside the core destinations will not happen.

I actually believe there is a demand for through trains from places away from London, not an hourly service, but maybe 1 or two per day each way from each major centre (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds/York, Bristol/Cardiff), but given current issues it just will not happen. In particular I think not linking HS2 and HS1 is a missed opportunity, as a 'cut down' solution I could see Birmingham as the second continental starting point as connections from points north would be easier than going via London, and it would relieve the current bottleneck at St Pancras, which again is more about security/border control, I read somewhere that it cannot handle more than around 1800 passengers per hour, and that would tally with current service level. So maybe forget about other destinations and just run say Birmingham - Paris/Brussels to relieve St Pancras once HS2 is open if the link could be implimented.

A bit off topic, but the loss of the direct service to Marne-le-Vallee service is a shame, apart from the Disneyland crowd it is a much more pleasant place to change onto SNCF services than Lille Europe, particularly if you have an hour or so to kill, and everything from Lille heading south and west of Paris also calls there.
 

philosopher

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Its actually the border control issue that has killed off the existing daily through service from St Pancras to Marne-le-Vallee. Providing a full set of staff for one train per day is just not cost effective. And its no good blaming it on Brexit, as border controls on our recent trip were no different from previous pre Brexit/Covid ones apart from getting a stamp in our passport.

Currently each calling point would need controls and security, and there is no way that more than a couple of trains a day could be filled. Until a way can be found to complete the formalities on board with just security at boarding points UK - Continental routes outside the core destinations will not happen.

I actually believe there is a demand for through trains from places away from London, not an hourly service, but maybe 1 or two per day each way from each major centre (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds/York, Bristol/Cardiff), but given current issues it just will not happen. In particular I think not linking HS2 and HS1 is a missed opportunity, as a 'cut down' solution I could see Birmingham as the second continental starting point as connections from points north would be easier than going via London, and it would relieve the current bottleneck at St Pancras, which again is more about security/border control, I read somewhere that it cannot handle more than around 1800 passengers per hour, and that would tally with current service level. So maybe forget about other destinations and just run say Birmingham - Paris/Brussels to relieve St Pancras once HS2 is open if the link could be implimented.

A bit off topic, but the loss of the direct service to Marne-le-Vallee service is a shame, apart from the Disneyland crowd it is a much more pleasant place to change onto SNCF services than Lille Europe, particularly if you have an hour or so to kill, and everything from Lille heading south and west of Paris also calls there.
Realistically, I think an open access operation to the continent from Birmingham and Manchester would only have a chance if the UK was in Schengen, therefore removing the need for border controls. The UK being in Schengen would also probably mean demand would be higher.
 

mike57

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Realistically, I think an open access operation to the continent from Birmingham and Manchester would only have a chance if the UK was in Schengen, therefore removing the need for border controls. The UK being in Schengen would also probably mean demand would be higher.
Which is not impossible, as other non-EU countries are in it, but given current state of things I cant see it happening anytime soon. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Eurostar customers begin their journey outside London and the South East.
 

Bald Rick

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Realistically, I think an open access operation to the continent from Birmingham and Manchester would only have a chance if the UK was in Schengen, therefore removing the need for border controls. The UK being in Schengen would also probably mean demand would be higher.

Is the right answer.

The only way to make the trains pay would be to have them open to domestic passengers both sides of the tunnel, which would mean us being in Schengen. Which, in my opinion, we should be.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only way to make the trains pay would be to have them open to domestic passengers both sides of the tunnel, which would mean us being in Schengen. Which, in my opinion, we should be.

Absolutely and utterly not. The tiny, tiny benefit of through trains to the Continent a couple of times a day (as opposed to an hourly connection which is more likely to offer a suitable time) does not outweigh the complete loss of control of our borders, effectively outsourcing the matter to the boundaries of Schengen like Spain and Romania, neither of which have any motivation to act in our interests.

I'd rather be out of the EU than have to accept Schengen. It makes no sense whatsoever for an island to be in it.

Edit: I would be happy with the "slightly leakier" approach of passport and customs controls being done on board if it suited, though, as it is just about everywhere else.
 

Bald Rick

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Absolutely and utterly not. The tiny, tiny benefit of through trains to the Continent a couple of times a day (as opposed to an hourly connection which is more likely to offer a suitable time) does not outweigh the complete loss of control of our borders, effectively outsourcing the matter to the boundaries of Schengen like Spain and Romania, neither of which have any motivation to act in our interests.

I'd rather be out of the EU than have to accept Schengen. It makes no sense whatsoever for an island to be in it.

I wholeheartedly disagree! And it’s not just about trains, obviously.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wholeheartedly disagree! And it’s not just about trains, obviously.

It absolutely is. Showing your passport when boarding a train, plane or ferry or alighting at the other end is not a major hassle. You need to show your ticket anyway, it's little in addition to that.

Schengen is about contiguous land - primarily about being able to drive across borders without massive traffic queues at border posts.
 

zwk500

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I'd rather be out of the EU than have to accept Schengen. It makes no sense whatsoever for an island to be in it.
Schengen is about contiguous land - primarily about being able to drive across borders without massive traffic queues at border posts.
The UK is NOT an Island nation, it DOES have a land border with the EU. Ireland has made moves towards Schengen recently, although it still has the opt-out and the CTA is a separate agreement.

When the UK was in the EU, the UK + Ireland joining Schengen made sense for freer trade. There's less benefit doing so now, as the UK doesn't align on other things so customs checks would still be needed. I'd still personally prefer it, but that's because I like frictionless travel when visiting friends and family.
I'd say checking the passports is less obstructive to Eurostar than the security bag scanning though.
 

Iskra

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Regarding Huddersfield to London, there was an Open Access proposal to operate such a service via the WCML. More details here:


ORR rejects new open access long distance services on West Coast Main Line​


The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) has rejected proposals by Great North Western Railway (GNWR) to provide new open access long-distance services on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) from London to Blackpool, Leeds and Huddersfield.

GNWR sought access rights until 2027 to operate six daily off-peak return services from London to Blackpool from May 2017 and six daily off-peak services from London to Leeds via Huddersfield from December 2018. To run the services it had planned to lease a fleet of eight new six-car Alstom Pendolino EMUs.

The operator, along with Great North Eastern Railway (GNER), is part of Alliance Rail Holdings, an Arriva subsidiary. Alliance had previously sought a more extensive track access agreement that also included services to Bradford and Carlisle, but this was rejected by the ORR in December 2013 because of capacity constraints at the southern end of the WCML.

Network Rail backed the GNWR application for the new services, saying they could be accommodated with better use of existing capacity, particularly after reworking the timetable. It cited the Northern Hub project to increase rail capacity in the Manchester area and the coming electrification of the TransPennine routes as a reason for backing the plan, however timetable modelling indicated that running a sixth hourly fast train would have significant negative impacts on punctuality on this line. Network Rail suggested that reduced signalling headways would be required to accommodate this level of traffic.

The ORR carried out a five-stage analysis of the proposals to establish whether the services would draw revenue away from franchised services, known as the ‘not primarily abstractive’ (NPA) test.

This test is complex, and the calculations are explained in detail in the decision letter. In it, the ORR says: “We would not expect to approve applications that did not generate at least 30p of new revenue for every £1 abstracted from existing operators. We set the threshold at this relatively low level with the benefits of competition firmly in mind.”

The mid-point NPA ratio for GNWR's proposal was 0.26 (i.e. 26p of new revenue for every £1 extracted), which rose slightly to 0.29 when GNWR revised its proposed timetable – just under the 0.3 threshold.

But the ORR said: “Overall on the NPA test we concluded that the application was at best marginal in certain circumstances, on a ratio which is already weighted in favour of an open access application.”

It was also concerned over the impact of additional fast services on the TransPennine route and delays to electrification, so the application was refused.

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Ian Yeowart, managing director of GNWR, said: “We are naturally disappointed with the ORR’s decision, especially as we reached agreement with Network Rail in May last year that there was sufficient capacity to operate these trains on the WCML and across the Pennines. That disappointment will be shared by residents and businesses in a number of northern towns and cities, most notably Blackpool and Huddersfield, which would have received new regular direct services to London as part of the plans.

“The ORR’s reasons came as something of a surprise to GNWR. Particularly as GNWR was told last July that forecasts of generation from the first part of the five-stage test were relatively high compared with previous open access applications that have been approved by the ORR.”

He added that back in 2011, when a previous application was rejected on capacity grounds, the revenue test comfortably exceeded the threshold required for approval.

Yeowart pointed to the East Coast Main Line, where Grand Central and Hull Trains have for a number of years successfully provided new services and competition with the franchised operator, East Coast Trains.

He said this competition on the ECML has kept fare rises below the national average, but the franchise operator has still paid increased premiums to the government year on year. In contrast the benefits of open access competition have now been "denied" to those passengers in the north west of England.

But the ORR said: "We note the absolute impact on the funds available to the Secretary of State is broadly comparable with the totality of open access applications we have approved on the ECML. But in this case the impact occurs more quickly because the services are introduced in two stages rather than developing more slowly over time."

The ORR letter also revels DfT concerns that GNWR's proposed new services "would undermine the business case for the expanded TransPennine investments it was now considering with Network Rail. In particular, it suggested the Benefit to Cost ratio of the wider project might fall from 2.12 to between 1.34 and 1.4 were GNWR to run services between London and Leeds rather than a DfT franchisee running an alternative service between, say, Manchester and York. This would reduce the value for money category of the project from high to low."

GNWR is now reviewing the ORR’s decision letter to decide what to do next. In the meantime, GNER is continuing with its application, lodged with the ORR early in 2014, to operate new fast services between London King’s Cross and Edinburgh, and to Cleethorpes and Bradford.

An ORR spokesman said: “The board of the ORR has decided not to approve an application from the GNWR Company for new off-peak train services between Yorkshire, Lancashire and London via the WCML.

“ORR considers a range of duties when making access decisions, and assesses the impact of new services not just on the passengers benefiting directly from those services but all users of railway services.”

(Image Source: GNWR)
 

Bletchleyite

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The UK is NOT an Island nation, it DOES have a land border with the EU. Ireland has made moves towards Schengen recently, although it still has the opt-out and the CTA is a separate agreement.

When the UK was in the EU, the UK + Ireland joining Schengen made sense for freer trade. There's less benefit doing so now, as the UK doesn't align on other things so customs checks would still be needed. I'd still personally prefer it, but that's because I like frictionless travel when visiting friends and family.
I'd say checking the passports is less obstructive to Eurostar than the security bag scanning though.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-the-uk-join-schengen.239053/
 

cle

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That Victoria service would have to be pretty quick to get up there to be competitive.

The Trent valley stations are fair abstraction game for calls, because of the LNWR Crewe service - Virgin slept, they moved in. So it feels fairer. Crewe calls too, for that reason. Maybe for splitting too. North Wales seems up for grabs right now, if a smaller market.

If routing that way, Hartford could be a consideration instead. If the other way (i.e. Denton), Congleton. Both used to have intercity services in days gone by, and might pass the test and stimulate new markets. But you'd get into trouble with Stockport and Warrington calls.

Stalybridge and Huddersfield to London could have potential - the lines both are built on are sadly don't point in a favourable way towards London - unlike say, Blackpool and Shrewsbury.
 

30907

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The most useful OA IMO would be a variant on some thatvhave already been floated:
North WCML (Liverpool/Glasgow)-Marches-Maindee Curve or Newport-SW Peninsula (Paignton/Newquay/Penzance)
Using Liverpool in preference to Manchester and running via the Marches reduces abstraction to a minimum.
Despite the distance, from purely anecdotal evidence there is a steady leisure market for Lancashire-Cornwall/Devon, so I am extrapolating for Merseyside.

This route poses all sorts of operational problems, some of which Bald Rick has mentioned. Finding an economical way of working would be one (it might be easier without Glasgow, sorry folks!), finding paths on the Marches certainly another.
 

anthony263

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GO-OP have put a application in to run trains from Taunton to Westbury, Swindon and weston super mare. I've been.o the ORRs website and can't find a application
 

Nick Ashwell

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The most useful OA IMO would be a variant on some thatvhave already been floated:
North WCML (Liverpool/Glasgow)-Marches-Maindee Curve or Newport-SW Peninsula (Paignton/Newquay/Penzance)
Using Liverpool in preference to Manchester and running via the Marches reduces abstraction to a minimum.
Despite the distance, from purely anecdotal evidence there is a steady leisure market for Lancashire-Cornwall/Devon, so I am extrapolating for Merseyside.

This route poses all sorts of operational problems, some of which Bald Rick has mentioned. Finding an economical way of working would be one (it might be easier without Glasgow, sorry folks!), finding paths on the Marches certainly another.
Liverpool and Manchester will both be served from south wales via the Marches so it's quite easy to argue the opposite and say it's highly abstractive!
 

A S Leib

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Stratford-upon-Avon - Oxford - Didcot Parkway - Winchester - Salisbury?

If there's room for it, St. Pancras - Bedford (pick up / set down only) - Sheffield then either something similar to GC / HT and Worksop - Retford - Gainsborough or closer to Lumo and go to Leeds?

Are open access operators possible in Northern Ireland, and if so could Portrush - Newry (- Dundalk) be viable?
 

mike57

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I still think that any OA operation is going to have to start/finish in London in order to generate enough business to survive.

Look at the llist of largest mainland cities/towns and find those without a direct (regular, more than once per day) London service. Sunderland, pop. 175,000(? another source says 275,000), Grand Central now serve it. Hull pop. 280,000 now served by Hull Trains. The largest not served looks to be Bolton with 200,000 at no. 28 which maybe would combine with Blackburn pop. 120,000, which is number 60 on the list. So Hull Trains and Grand Central picked up two cities in the top 50 for size which didnt have a direct London service. The only others in the top 50 are Huddersfield, Telford, Blackpool and Birkenhead at 51 because as Belfast is not mainland I haven't counted it. Even if you go down to number 100 you only add another 7 or 8, and a couple of those are so close to neighbours, such as Salford or Gateshead that its hardly a 'different' city in terms of travel patterns

The data I have used is here https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-cities-population-1000/

Looking at the remaining places in the top 50 on the 'not served' list, Blackburn and Bolton are non starters because any London service is going to have to use Castlefield and the WCML to get to London in a reasonable time. Even an extention of existing services is going to face similar problems.

Huddersfield has had a application to link it via WCML rejected

Telford could be combined with Shrewsbury, but a previous OA operation via a roundabout route failed.

Blackpool has been the subject of several proposals over the years but none have got off the ground

Birkenhead is less than 10 mins from Lime Steet so wouldnt be attractive to an OA operator
 

Doctor Fegg

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I do wonder if there’s potentially a niche opportunity for summer holiday trains in the space between OA and charters. Long-distance services to Weymouth, Newquay, Skegness, that sort of thing, using hired-in stock and staff.
 

JonathanH

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I do wonder if there’s potentially a niche opportunity for summer holiday trains in the space between OA and charters. Long-distance services to Weymouth, Newquay, Skegness, that sort of thing, using hired-in stock and staff.
Isn't that what Charter Train operators already do, rather than being between OA and charters? Steam hauled it is over £100 a person, although the Scarborough Spa Express is a little cheaper currently.

Who are you anticipating making up the gap in costs?
 

43096

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I do wonder if there’s potentially a niche opportunity for summer holiday trains in the space between OA and charters. Long-distance services to Weymouth, Newquay, Skegness, that sort of thing, using hired-in stock and staff.
That’s a similar sort of setup to the LSL Euston-Manchester Fridays only operation of recent months. Given that that was hopelessly uneconomic even with Avanti having basically given up on the same route, I can’t see how something similar to summer destinations would work. The fundamental problem is how you make your target market aware they’re running, as they won’t appear in journey planners.
 

zwk500

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Blackpool has been the subject of several proposals over the years but none have got off the ground
Tbf, one did get approval and was all set to operate before COVID got in the way.
I do wonder if there’s potentially a niche opportunity for summer holiday trains ... using hired-in stock and staff.
Is this not the very definition of a Charter? Interestingly, I'm aware of at least 1 occasion when an Open-Access Operator chartered a relief train from DB Cargo for a Football game.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Is this not the very definition of a Charter?
Not necessarily! As has been pointed out upthread, WCRC's Jacobite - a summer-only tourist service - is open-access. As it happens WCRC owns the stock, but that's not particularly germane either way.
 

The Planner

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GO-OP have put a application in to run trains from Taunton to Westbury, Swindon and weston super mare. I've been.o the ORRs website and can't find a application
They have been trying to get various routes for must be a decade, Westbury Moor St, then Nuneaton etc etc...
 

LWB

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Reading through this thread it strikes me that simply quoting population sizes is a poor way of estimating potential demand to any given place is unsound. As a Yorkshireman it may grate but cannot be denied that London has a ‘pull’ that is nothing to do with the population. For one it is a truly MASSIVE hub for onward travel to huge populous areas of the UK beyond London not to mention the rest of the world. It is still THE centre for government, commerce, finance, culture etc etc.
 

Philip

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How about this one:

Liverpool - (Wigan reversal) - Bolton - Man Vic (pick up only) - Stockport - Crewe (via Uttoxeter & Castle Donnington) - Leicester (set down only) - Water Orton - Solihull - Warwick - Oxford - Paddington. Vice versa with the pick up/set down restrictions. It goes around the houses but provides some new connections and doesn't seem overly abstrative with the set down restrictions.
 

Ken H

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Reading through this thread it strikes me that simply quoting population sizes is a poor way of estimating potential demand to any given place is unsound. As a Yorkshireman it may grate but cannot be denied that London has a ‘pull’ that is nothing to do with the population. For one it is a truly MASSIVE hub for onward travel to huge populous areas of the UK beyond London not to mention the rest of the world. It is still THE centre for government, commerce, finance, culture etc etc.
More to the point, many places are hubs for a wider area. so Blackburn may not look that large but actually is a wider conurbation including Darwen, Accrington and even Clitheroe. Its also important for many in Burnley, Nelson and Colne. Add up all those places and you have quite a large number of people. Add in minor places like Sabden, Padiham and its even more.
 

zwk500

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How about this one:

Liverpool - (Wigan reversal) - Bolton - Man Vic (pick up only) - Stockport - Crewe (via Uttoxeter & Castle Donnington) - Leicester (set down only) - Water Orton - Solihull - Warwick - Oxford - Paddington. Vice versa with the pick up/set down restrictions. It goes around the houses but provides some new connections and doesn't seem overly abstrative with the set down restrictions.
Which markets are you serving?

If Bolton-London is the ultimate goal, I'd be minded to go a very different route: Bolton, Preston (reverse), Euxton Balshaw Lane, Crewe, Tamworth (SD), Rugby (SD), Euston. But use Lumo's strategy and aim for the low-cost market.
Euxton, Tamworth and rugby are to pass the abstraction test. 80x Stock. Tamworth and Rugby would obvs be PU northbound. Bolton is c.25 minutes to Preston, Preston to Euston on a Pendo is c.2h30 with 3 stops, so looking at somewhere between 3h15-3h30 journey time.
 

30907

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Liverpool and Manchester will both be served from south wales via the Marches so it's quite easy to argue the opposite and say it's highly abstractive!
I'd forgotten the Liverpool-Wrexham-Cardiff plan, good point - so delete the Newport stop so you are only abstracting between Liverpool/Crewe/Shrewsbury/Hereford which will not be a massive market.
 

cle

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I'd forgotten the Liverpool-Wrexham-Cardiff plan, good point - so delete the Newport stop so you are only abstracting between Liverpool/Crewe/Shrewsbury/Hereford which will not be a massive market.
Let's see if it comes to life. Plus it's to be two-hourly and brand new, so I think you could argue this is not abstracting a well-established market or flow. You do two hourly in one hour and maybe to Bristol in the other one - Bristol-Liverpool is a gap.

But I'm not sure the market is there. An actually fast Cardiff-Manchester might be good too. Perhaps there is scope for a Wales-based OA.
 

Philip

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Which markets are you serving?

If Bolton-London is the ultimate goal, I'd be minded to go a very different route: Bolton, Preston (reverse), Euxton Balshaw Lane, Crewe, Tamworth (SD), Rugby (SD), Euston. But use Lumo's strategy and aim for the low-cost market.
Euxton, Tamworth and rugby are to pass the abstraction test. 80x Stock. Tamworth and Rugby would obvs be PU northbound. Bolton is c.25 minutes to Preston, Preston to Euston on a Pendo is c.2h30 with 3 stops, so looking at somewhere between 3h15-3h30 journey time.

Not so much Bolton-London with this one, clearly it would be much quicker changing in Manchester onto a WCML service. However, there are numerous new direct connections with this route which could be useful; Liverpool to Bolton; Bolton, Salford Crescent and Man Victoria to Stockport and Crewe; Liverpool, Bolton, Manchester, Stockport and Crewe to Leicester; Liverpool and Manchester to Solihull amd Warwick (for people who hate changing at Birmingham New Street); Leicester to Solihull, Warwick and Oxford; Warwick to Oxford.
 
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