Future replacement for class 466

[brad465]

Apart from the electrostars right?

The 375s will probably stay longer, but there has been speculation about the future of 376s

 

[hwl]

The 375s will probably stay longer, but there has been speculation about the future of 376s

And the 395s almost certainly staying too. An add on order of at least 5x 395 units would be useful to enhance services (no 6 car etc.).
The 375s would lose the 1st class as it is getting abolished on.

Micro fleets aren't helpful to any franchise hence part of the reason for lots of others recent "new" franchises having a clear-out and thus discussions about 376s.

 

[Mikey C]

No wheelchair area either.

Which isn't a major job though? The work on the 465s has been the bare minimum needed to make them compliant

Incidentally are the 456s getting the work to make them compliant, seeing that their replacements are on order?

 

[MatthewRead]

Which isn't a major job though? The work on the 465s has been the bare minimum needed to make them compliant

Incidentally are the 456s getting the work to make them compliant, seeing that their replacements are on order?

They already have it door sounders etc.

 

[brad465]

Which isn't a major job though? The work on the 465s has been the bare minimum needed to make them compliant

Incidentally are the 456s getting the work to make them compliant, seeing that their replacements are on order?

Really the 466s should be made compliant; their replacement won't happen for a few years at least, unless other existing rolling stock that is suitable comes in. I reckon what has happened is the whole uncertainty surrounding the franchise bidding, combined with the Williams' review and the numerous short extensions made/to potentially be made, makes the current holder reluctant to refurbish them, at least not beyond the "botch-job" they are getting, given they may not have the franchise at the end of the year. If the uncertainty wasn't there then what you described with the 456s could easily have been done to the 466s by the new franchise

It's good they have this exemption, but it still isn't ideal, and while there are only 4 lone-working 466 services at stake from 2020, cascading longer units to fill them will make a difference in a franchise where every train unit, 375/376/377/395/465/466 alike, is needed by SE and still isn't enough, and this is after Thameslink took over key services and 377s coming in 2 years ago.

 

[hwl]

Wasting money on new stock which is guaranteed to be late delivery cant be the solution to every stock replacement.
Your wasting good stock otherwise which only needs few modifications.

Plus new trains look cheap and plastic looking, they aren't popular so far anyhow

But they will be looking at 2022-23 delivery so probability of it being late is low and software issues sorted by then.

With the arrival of several new ROSCOs, alternative finance arrangement over the last decade and an end to Section 54 agreements sub-optimal rolling stock is being removed form the system rather than the previous Hotel California situation. (e.g. Anyone going to take on 175s?)

The networkers will be hard to modify for future metro use e.g. removing 3+2 and going to 2+2 with larger vestibules (electrical equipment positioning and more standing maxes out suspension so major mods needed.) No SDO /DOO at present etc.
Bidders and ROSCO will be well aware of recent overhaul /upgrade programmes not going to plan cost or time wise (Angel, Eversholt and Porterbrook all having problems).

A judgement of whether the stock is good can't be independent of the requirements for the routes it runs on and as DfT have started to recognise these are quite demanding for metro services inc SE and the ITT recognises this, how far this is met is another question. e.g. the suggestion for 350/2 they would need DOO & SDO equipment fitting and an internal overhaul and lots of other upgrades such as C-DAS and would still be a microfleet.

 

[hwl]

Which isn't a major job though? The work on the 465s has been the bare minimum needed to make them compliant

Incidentally are the 456s getting the work to make them compliant, seeing that their replacements are on order?

456 - Done shortly after they transferred to SWR but Southern had removed the toilets a decade before.
466s - not major but still costs that would be recoup-able in 2 years or worth the disruption. A Direct Award may change the maths on this. The lack of it happening suggests that the 466s feature as the first item out in every bidders plans but that 465/0 &/1 (the more reliable) would probably be the last to go / most likely to remain.

 

[brad465]

456 - Done shortly after they transferred to SWR but Southern had removed the toilets a decade before.
466s - not major but still costs that would be recoup-able in 2 years or worth the disruption. A Direct Award may change the maths on this. The lack of it happening suggests that the 466s feature as the first item out in every bidders plans but that 465/0 &/1 (the more reliable) would probably be the last to go / most likely to remain.

Presumably the 0/1s are most reliable simply through the traction replacement - was there a reason only those sub-groups got that work done (I know they were built by different groups whoever managed the Metro-Cammell groups must have thought it was at least a good idea)?

 

[hwl]

Presumably the 0/1s are most reliable simply through the traction replacement - was there a reason only those sub-groups got that work done (I know they were built by different groups whoever managed the Metro-Cammell groups must have thought it was at least a good idea)?

Eversholt /0 &/1 Angel /2, /9 & 466.
Eversholt etc. identified a failure mode that could be eliminated by more modern 3 phase drive architecture.
Eversholt and Hitachi were working on the 395 concept at the time and the /0 & /1 acted as good test bed for Hitachi to test the 395 electronics on the Kent route, they also had co-operation from Brush. Alst(h)om were working with another ROSCO on an alternative to the 395 so very unlikely for the other units to get touched (less affected by that failure mode too).

The doors are the biggest issue that could do with addressing (not for want of trying). The rubber edges are also on RAIB/ORR naughty list for repeated trap and drag incidents.

 

[RealTrains07]

But they will be looking at 2022-23 delivery so probability of it being late is low and software issues sorted by then.

With the arrival of several new ROSCOs, alternative finance arrangement over the last decade and an end to Section 54 agreements sub-optimal rolling stock is being removed form the system rather than the previous Hotel California situation. (e.g. Anyone going to take on 175s?)

The networkers will be hard to modify for future metro use e.g. removing 3+2 and going to 2+2 with larger vestibules (electrical equipment positioning and more standing maxes out suspension so major mods needed.) No SDO /DOO at present etc.
Bidders and ROSCO will be well aware of recent overhaul /upgrade programmes not going to plan cost or time wise (Angel, Eversholt and Porterbrook all having problems).

A judgement of whether the stock is good can't be independent of the requirements for the routes it runs on and as DfT have started to recognise these are quite demanding for metro services inc SE and the ITT recognises this, how far this is met is another question. e.g. the suggestion for 350/2 they would need DOO & SDO equipment fitting and an internal overhaul and lots of other upgrades such as C-DAS and would still be a microfleet.

New different problems always can develop. The current issues with the 710s and 345s are different from each other.
Just because the issues current will be solved by then doesn’t mean bombardier is going to be plague free of issues forever

 

[SOUTHEASTERN]

The class 466s primarily operate on the sheerness on sea line or as an additional unit on suburban southeastern services so the use of 458s or 707s is impractical as i personally know that the sheerness on sea line never has a full 2 car train and they use 466s to increase capacity on suburban services.

 

[urpert]

Presumably the 0/1s are most reliable simply through the traction replacement - was there a reason only those sub-groups got that work done (I know they were built by different groups whoever managed the Metro-Cammell groups must have thought it was at least a good idea)?

Anecdotally they also seem in better structural shape. A fair number of the Met-Camm bodies are full of water which you can hear sloshing around.

 

[brad465]

Anecdotally they also seem in better structural shape. A fair number of the Met-Camm bodies are full of water which you can hear sloshing around.

Yes I have heard that riding on them before, but believed it was not limited to just one of the designers' groups. However I have long recognised the MetCams occasionally making noises as the body shell rocks while riding along, not always, but presumably in windy conditions and/or going fast round bends. I can recall the body shell noises from my early childhood in the late 90s/early 00s, but the water noises I can't recall being a thing till recent years.

On other notes I hope 458s do not in any way come to SE, and certainly not to replace any Networker units, not least as it wouldn't be a great advertisement to replace unreliable units with others that have a history of being just as unreliable. Looking at what is out there right now I don't think there is a 466 replacement currently running on the Network. The most suitable rolling stock I can think of is their AC Cousins (yes the 365s) but even that is a long way from suitable because of preliminary work needed first. Ultimately they will have to struggle on until a complete Networker fleet replacement is made, where, as I mentioned in the 466 refurbishment thread, if they go before with no replacement the SE capacity struggle will be exacerbated

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I wonder who has just put a lovely disabled accessable 2 car train into service, fully refurbished with commuter traffic in mind... Vivarails class 230, it just needs 3rd rail only running gear which is cheaper and quicker to install than 4 diesel engine and voila there we have perfect shuttle trains for Bromley North and Sheerness