Future replacement for class 466

[leo knight]

With class 466 being only 2 coaches would it make sense to replace these with future off lease 458s and 707s?
The South Eastern would gain a huge percentage of capacity/seating.
Any suggestions on any other stock or ideas?
Basically 66 5 coach trains replace 43 2 coach trains and are compliant which would solve the 466 issue.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 466 mostly work with pairs of 465s to make 10 car trains - would that not mean that you would be mostly replacing a few of the 465 + 465 + 466 combinations with 458 + 458 or 707 + 707?

 

[leo knight]

You could have ten car 707/458s on the busiest services and maybe use some 455/456 combinations off lease from SWR.
12 car 465 could be used.
One of the issue is the 466 being non compliant.
The 707 definitely has far more standing capacity and your losing 4 cabs on the 466/465 ten car combination.

 

[brad465]

466s do make a number of 10 car formations yes, but they also make a number of 6 car formations into and out of Victoria and Blackfriars for Medway Towns' services, which presumably can't be longer as there isn't enough other stock available to make 8 car trains (some stations on these routes have platforms no longer than 8 car).

Much of the Metro network, especially out of London Bridge and co. really needs 12 car running so trains that can only do 10 car formations are not ideal I find. In the short term your suggestions could work if it gets more 465s into 12 car formations, however a complete 465/466 withdrawal is expected when the franchise [eventually] renews (then another few years to get new stock running services), so really a new fleet with full 8 and 12 car running capabilities, and enough stock to do this on many more services in the peak than current quotas allow, would be more ideal long term.

 

[Esker-pades]

After the deadline, 466s can still run coupled to a compliant 465. So, your 6/10 car metro services aren't the ones that need a replacement. Instead, one needs 2/3 car replacements for the shuttle services (Medway Valley, Bromley North, Sheerness) which are (or partially) operated by a single 466.

 

[hwl]

What SE metro services out of Charing Cross / Cannon Street really need is 12car. The 466 and potentially 707/458 don't help in this regard.

 

[JamesRowden]

What SE metro services out of Charing Cross / Cannon Street really need is 12car. The 466 and potentially 707/458 don't help in this regard.

I've thought that the 707s could each be given a new powered carriage to extend them all to 6 car sets. Completely new 6-car 707s could also be built in addition.

 

[Chris217]

Single class 466s sometimes get used on
Strood- Maidstone west shuttles.
It used to use 375/3s a lot but single 466s have also turned up especially on Saturdays.

 

[theageofthetra]

What SE metro services out of Charing Cross / Cannon Street really need is 12car. The 466 and potentially 707/458 don't help in this regard.

Unfortunately only three platforms at Charing Cross can take 12 coach Networkers.

 

[hwl]

Unfortunately only three platforms at Charing Cross can take 12 coach Networkers.

Indeed as I've also commented many time over the years and then there are the 11car platforms at Woolwich Dockyard too.

I didn't say 12 car metro with (All) networkers! Much new stock would be needed, realistically you would need a 420car order assuming 376 and 466 go with networkers retained on Victoria and some CST metro services. Add another 200 cars is they want to get rid of the GEC 465/2s as well.

 

[Deepgreen]

I can't imagine any new electric stock in the UK being specified for anything fewer than four coaches from now on. Platform lengthening on some routes will allow a minimum of four coaches, and many are being specified as fives.

 

[hwl]

I can't imagine any new electric stock in the UK being specified for anything fewer than four coaches from now on. Platform lengthening on some routes will allow a minimum of four coaches, and many are being specified as fives.

As an interesting aside:
The effective maximum MU lenght for ETCS purpose is 5 car with the EVC in the 3rd car and cable runs to the leading bogies to read the eurobalsies. 6-10car = 2 EVCs, 11+ cars = 3 EVCs.
So effectively a 345 is a 4 car and 5 car (split where the fire door is).
Adding ETCS / EVCs is quite expensive so you aim to minimise hence the 24m Aventra cars for Anglia /LNWR so you get 5 car or 10 car to minimise EVC cost.

But with SouthEastern you have some tight clearances you are largely stuck with 20m so how to come up with a sensible 240m metro concept that doesn't cost hugely more. Or is it worth spending a bit to do a some clearance?

Similar issue ducked on SWR as 200m so 10x20m cars.

On you original thought, it think it depends if you are in the South East or not...
Plenty of recent Northern /Scotrail / LNWR (local) 3 car orders so they could double up to 6/7 car where 8 car too difficult. But this may change in 10 years time with another bout of lengthening.
But also 4 car ordering at Scotrail too.

 

[RealTrains07]

466s do make a number of 10 car formations yes, but they also make a number of 6 car formations into and out of Victoria and Blackfriars for Medway Towns' services, which presumably can't be longer as there isn't enough other stock available to make 8 car trains (some stations on these routes have platforms no longer than 8 car).

Much of the Metro network, especially out of London Bridge and co. really needs 12 car running so trains that can only do 10 car formations are not ideal I find. In the short term your suggestions could work if it gets more 465s into 12 car formations, however a complete 465/466 withdrawal is expected when the franchise [eventually] renews (then another few years to get new stock running services), so really a new fleet with full 8 and 12 car running capabilities, and enough stock to do this on many more services in the peak than current quotas allow, would be more ideal long term.

LNR 350s might be an option? They can make 12 car trains. That could work for the 12 car services at least

 

[Fincra5]

LNR 350s might be an option? They can make 12 car trains. That could work for the 12 car services at least

Doubt it! They've got no DOO equipment for starters, so no good on 12 Car Metro!

 

[hwl]

LNR 350s might be an option? They can make 12 car trains. That could work for the 12 car services at least

They would need 3rd rail gear, SDO and almost certainly DOO fitting.

 

[RealTrains07]

Doubt it! They've got no DOO equipment for starters, so no good on 12 Car Metro!

They would need 3rd rail gear, SDO and almost certainly DOO fitting.

For those of us without knowledge of the technical jargon

What is SDO and DOO and whats its signicance for SE services??

 

[Roast Veg]

Selective Door Operation (for short platforms) and Driver Only Operation (full cab controls and cameras for doors)

 

[RealTrains07]

Selective Door Operation (for short platforms) and Driver Only Operation (full cab controls and cameras for doors)

Oh DOO, the reason why so many strikes are occurring.
In that case, the 707 would be good since they are DOO compliant and as far as i know SDO compliant too

 

[hwl]

Oh DOO, the reason why so many strikes are occurring.
In that case, the 707 would be good since they are DOO compliant and as far as i know SDO compliant too

No DOO strikes at SE though!
But 707s are 5 car units on a 8/12car railway that has to many 6/10 car trains currently.
707s also have fewer and less powerful traction motors than the 700s so their power : weight ratio is worse than the Networkers they would replace, hence not good.
For 10 car operation on the Charing Cross and Cannon Street services no SDO is required.
Any surplus stock cascaded in will need major modification and spend, which doesn't have a good track record for on time on budget at the moment.
The Current leasing cost for the 350/2 and 707s aren't cheap.

 

[Journeyman]

The days of the 465s and 466s are almost certainly numbered, due to how unreliable the traction equipment is. It's an almost 100% dead-cert that whoever gets the new SE franchise will be looking at a complete fleet replacement with new trains.

 

[hwl]

The days of the 465s and 466s are almost certainly numbered, due to how unreliable the traction equipment is. It's an almost 100% dead-cert that whoever gets the new SE franchise will be looking at a complete fleet replacement with new trains.

Rumours unfortunately suggest less than complete...

 

[ScotGG]

Unfortunately only three platforms at Charing Cross can take 12 coach Networkers.

With SDO installed or new trains with it?

 

[hwl]

With SDO installed or new trains with it?

Not an issue for newer stock with SDO (see 375 at Charing Cross)

 

[brad465]

I don't see any reason why the 466s specifically will be replaced, the case is all 465s and 466s (147+43 units respectively) will go eventually, even though it will take a few years given the time it takes to replace large fleets from order through to completing testing. This will in effect allow at least some of the fleet to see its 30th birthday in 2022, with increasing likeliness the longer it takes to actually award a franchise.

If they had to be replaced short term, maybe this proposition could be considered: 707s go to Southern, who work in 5 and 10 car formations more easily than SE. Then if this creates a stock surplus of 377s, cascade some of those that are 4 car over to Southeastern, so if 465s and 375s are put on the branch lines they are not "wasted" as these 377s strengthen the mainline services and 465s that still get mainline duties (yes that last 377 cascade didn't fully complete that) can be in more 12 car forms. 86 carriages are lost if 466s go, but 120 would be gained if 30 4 car 377s came over, which equals the number of 707s in existence.
All the while CHX is made 12 car for all platforms, depots that can't make 12 car trains are fixed to do so, and more rolling stock storage space is created across the network for the inevitable new fleet to replace networkers, which MUST have a carriage count larger than them if it is to have a positive impact on overcrowding.

(By the way, is thread going to Speculative Ideas?)

 

[rebmcr]

I've thought that the 707s could each be given a new powered carriage to extend them all to 6 car sets. Completely new 6-car 707s could also be built in addition.

Indeed, and that would be very suitable for Southeastern. The thing blocking that from occurring is that Alstom is part of the new franchise bid.

 

[hwl]

Indeed, and that would be very suitable for Southeastern. The thing blocking that from occurring is that Alstom is part of the new franchise bid.

Apart for that they don't qualitfy for the maximum standing density due to the (lack of) grab rail and knee in aisle issues and the existing traction motor are smaller than the 700 ones (so you would be looking at replacing those too).

Alstom for Stagecoach only. Hitachi for the other 2.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see some 2nd hand thrown in somewhere by some bidders

 

[clagmonster]

Aside from the toilets, are there any major barriers to 466s becoming compliant? If not, could simply locking the bogs out be a viable option to keep them going into next year?

 

[hwl]

Aside from the toilets, are there any major barriers to 466s becoming compliant? If not, could simply locking the bogs out be a viable option to keep them going into next year?

No wheelchair area either.

 

[RealTrains07]

No DOO strikes at SE though!
But 707s are 5 car units on a 8/12car railway that has to many 6/10 car trains currently.
707s also have fewer and less powerful traction motors than the 700s so their power : weight ratio is worse than the Networkers they would replace, hence not good.
For 10 car operation on the Charing Cross and Cannon Street services no SDO is required.
Any surplus stock cascaded in will need major modification and spend, which doesn't have a good track record for on time on budget at the moment.
The Current leasing cost for the 350/2 and 707s aren't cheap.

Wasting money on new stock which is guaranteed to be late delivery cant be the solution to every stock replacement.
Your wasting good stock otherwise which only needs few modifications.

Plus new trains look cheap and plastic looking, they arn’t popular so far anyhow

 

[RealTrains07]

The days of the 465s and 466s are almost certainly numbered, due to how unreliable the traction equipment is. It's an almost 100% dead-cert that whoever gets the new SE franchise will be looking at a complete fleet replacement with new trains.

Apart from the electrostars right?