Future Remapping to CrossCountry

[Jorge Da Silva]

This thread is a branch off from the now closed CrossCountry New Franchise thread. This thread is to discuss the potential future remapping or changes to services including frequency. Stock may be discussed seen as this sort of crosses into new services.

What changes to the current map would you change? After HS2? EWR?

What about HS2 (particularly Phase 2b as it follows the York-Birmingham section) and EWR surely they provide/enable new routes:

EWR Corridors

• Norwich-Cambridge-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading
• Birmingham-Coventry-Rugby-Milton Keynes-Oxford-Reading
• Ipswich-Cambridge-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading
• Nottingham/Sheffield-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading

HS2 (Phase 1 and 2) Corridors:

• York-Birmingham
• Manchester-Birmingham
• Wigan-Birmingham
• Birmingham-Milton Keynes Central

With all this free capacity in the future what new services could be added?

 

[EastisECML]

Will XC services to Newcastle disappear once HS2 has their hourly Birmingham - Newcastle service?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Will XC services to Newcastle disappear once HS2 has their hourly Birmingham - Newcastle service?

Probably. But capacity will be freed up between York and Birmingham meaning additional services are possible. However Newcastle to York is already full as it is without adding HS2 and CrossCountry together. So maybe?

 

[JamesRowden]

Will XC services to Newcastle disappear once HS2 has their hourly Birmingham - Newcastle service?

The route studies predicted the Southampton/Reading-Newcastle services being altered to run to Hull rather than Newcastle post HS2 phase 2. The Plymouth-Edinburgh service was predicted to be kept. The route studies stated that although the end to end Birmingham-Northeast traffic would be attracted onto HS2, there would still be a significant amount of traffic to/from locations in between not served by HS2.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The route studies predicted the Southampton/Reading-Newcastle services being altered to run to Hull rather than Newcastle post HS2 phase 2. The Plymouth-Edinburgh service was predicted to be kept. The route studies stated that although the end to end Birmingham-Northeast traffic would be attracted onto HS2, there would still be a significant amount of traffic to/from locations in between not served by HS2.

Meaning in the future Hull will be on CrossCountry? Hull-Reading via Doncaster? That’s interesting, thanks!
It makes sense to keep Glasgow/Edinburgh-Plymouth and divert Reading services to Hull which would improve connectivity dramatically for Hull.​

 

[JamesRowden]

Meaning in the future Hull will be on CrossCountry? Hull-Reading via Doncaster? That’s interesting, thanks!​

Potentially, it's only a long term planning suggestion at the moment.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Potentially, it's only a long term planning suggestion at the moment.

True? But it’s interesting that they are considering Hull as a destination for CrossCountry. Will CrossCountry change dramatically Post HS2?

 

[swt_passenger]

Meaning in the future Hull will be on CrossCountry? Hull-Reading via Doncaster? That’s interesting, thanks!
It makes sense to keep Glasgow/Edinburgh-Plymouth and divert Reading services to Hull which would improve connectivity dramatically for Hull.​

To be fair this is really the sort of info anyone can pick up from reading the route studies, rather than just guessing...

 

[route101]

Bring Liverpool back to XC ...

 

[EastisECML]

The route studies predicted the Southampton/Reading-Newcastle services being altered to run to Hull rather than Newcastle post HS2 phase 2. The Plymouth-Edinburgh service was predicted to be kept. The route studies stated that although the end to end Birmingham-Northeast traffic would be attracted onto HS2, there would still be a significant amount of traffic to/from locations in between not served by HS2.

So Newcastle will have 2 tph from Euston, 1 tph from Curzon Street and 1 tph to Birmingham & Edinburgh on classic tracks?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So Newcastle will have 2 tph from Euston, 1 tph from Curzon Street and 1 tph to Birmingham & Edinburgh on classic tracks?

Something like that. And I have read in a ‘released capacity’ document by the Government for HS2 that 1 tph will still exist to Kings Crosss.


In Summary:

• 2tph to London Euston
• 1tph to London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley
• 1tph to Birmingham Curzon Street
• 1tph to Plymouth-Edinburgh via Birmingham New Street

Edit:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...s2-released-capacity-study-summary-report.pdf

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Bring Liverpool back to XC ...

Has been recently called for and completely ridiculous it’s not on the network. IMO I would like to see services to Bristol and Reading from Liverpool particularly after HS2.

 

[EastisECML]

I wonder if that XC and LNER service can call at Chester Le Street through no longer being the go to fast services anymore? Morpeth as well. Probably not Cramlington though given its short platforms. In find it strange Chester Le Street being a good sized town on a mainline is so often neglected in such reports. It is effectively held hostage by its mainline. At the very least when NPR materialises in whatever way it's going to, the speed increases should let Chester Le Street becoming a calling point for both routes to Newcastle.

Interesting that report suggests Sunderland could get an hourly service to London. Perhaps the Manchester Airport - Newcastle TPE service could be extended there as well?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is this possible for Post HS2:

• 1tph Hull-Reading (& 0.5tph to Southampton Central)
• 1tph Glasgow/Edinburgh-Plymouth via ECML
• 1tph Manchester-Exeter
• 1tph Swansea-Nottingham
• 1tph Liverpool-Bristol
• 1tph Liverpool-Reading
• 1tph Norwich-Reading via EWR
• 1tph Nottingham-Bristol via EWR
• 1tph Manchester-Bournemouth

Limited Extensions:

• Exeter-Paignton
• Plymouth-Penzance
• Newquay
• Edinburgh-Aberdeen
• Nottingham-Bournemouth (1tpd)

 

[The Planner]

No XC will ever use East West.

 

[swt_passenger]

No XC will ever use East West.

In a previous discussion I raised the point that a “cross country type” service, didn’t necessarily have to be operated by what we currently call the Cross Country (XC) TOC. Manchester to Basingstoke via Trent Valley and Bletchley definitely appeared in a route study, but wouldn’t have to be a XC service as we know them.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Something like that. And I have read in a ‘released capacity’ document by the Government for HS2 that 1 tph will still exist to Kings Crosss.


In Summary:

• 2tph to London Euston
• 1tph to London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley
• 1tph to Birmingham Curzon Street
• 1tph to Plymouth-Edinburgh via Birmingham New Street

Edit:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...s2-released-capacity-study-summary-report.pdf

From hourly to 15-minutely on the Trent Valley. Sheer madness.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This is why I hate the whole HS2, post-HS2 and other such capacity studies and possible services.

A service from London via the classic WCML to Piccadilly then round the Ordsall to Rochdale is ludicrous. So is a HS2 service terminating at b****y Macclesfield.

Add to that all the other total nonsense they suggest... Someone please stop these people!

 

[Bevan Price]

If/when HS2 is ever completed, there is still going to be a big demand for passenger services along the WCML, MML, ECML and other classic lines, because HS2 is not going to serve (directly) some very large towns and cities. I doubt that as many paths will be freed on classic lines as some people predict (unless someone makes an unpopular political decision to try and "kill" classic line services.)

And there will be plenty of people who prefer to use (slower) direct services rather than be forced to change trains at some of the "out of town" HS2 "Parkway" stations like "Toton Yard" . So, unless we ever regain an integrated national rail network, I suspect that the current XC and other franchise areas may see only marginal changes "post-HS2".

 

[mmh]

This is why I hate the whole HS2, post-HS2 and other such capacity studies and possible services.

A service from London via the classic WCML to Piccadilly then round the Ordsall to Rochdale is ludicrous. So is a HS2 service terminating at b****y Macclesfield.

Add to that all the other total nonsense they suggest... Someone please stop these people!

I just cling to the hope that at some point it'll all be cancelled. If not, it won’t go further than Birmingham in my lifetime.

 

[Busaholic]

Is this possible for Post HS2:

• 1tph Hull-Reading (& 0.5tph to Southampton Central)
• 1tph Glasgow/Edinburgh-Plymouth via ECML
• 1tph Manchester-Exeter
• 1tph Swansea-Nottingham
• 1tph Liverpool-Bristol
• 1tph Liverpool-Reading
• 1tph Norwich-Reading via EWR
• 1tph Nottingham-Bristol via EWR
• 1tph Manchester-Bournemouth

Limited Extensions:

• Exeter-Paignton
• Plymouth-Penzance
• Newquay
• Edinburgh-Aberdeen
• Nottingham-Bournemouth (1tpd)

Are you suggesting one of the Swansea to Nottingham services per day be extended to Bournemouth?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you suggesting one of the Swansea to Nottingham services per day be extended to Bournemouth?!

Hopefully it’s just the existing service that’s been noticed. Which is really just a start of service positioning move, rather than a franchise requirement.

 

[Gareth]

Manchester to Basingstoke via Trent Valley and Bletchley definitely appeared in a route study, but wouldn’t have to be a XC service as we know them.

Yes, still think it's an aspiration longer term. The XC network as it exists today doesn't really make sense anymore after HS2 Phase 2. It'll be silly having longer distance trains from Manchester to Bristol taking much longer to get to Birmingham than services which terminate there. It'd be better to have classic platforms at Curzon Street for Manchester/Liverpool/Scotland passengers to change for the South West. Things like Manchester-Bournemouth via Trent Valley or Liverpool-Northampton/Milton Keynes would be the successor services. Services from the North East should still go into New Street (via Curzon Street classic platforms) and then onto Bristol/South West.

 

[TheWalrus]

Has been recently called for and completely ridiculous it’s not on the network. IMO I would like to see services to Bristol and Reading from Liverpool particularly after HS2.

The simple solution surely would be to make the Bournemouth/Bristol-Manchester services 2x220 and split/join at Stafford?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The simple solution surely would be to make the Bournemouth/Bristol-Manchester services 2x220 and split/join at Stafford?

That’s a good solution. That means we can connect Liverpool with Bournemouth and possibly Bristol.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Splitting and joining is always a major punctuality risk. Especially so when done at places like Stafford where it will pollute through platforms.

 

[TheWalrus]

Splitting and joining is always a major punctuality risk. Especially so when done at places like Stafford where it will pollute through platforms.

That is true but would it be any better to do it at Wolverhampton or New Street? Or Crewe if we went that way?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do people not realise there is a review of rail organisation in progress (the Williams Review)?
As a result, reletting the Cross Country franchise has been put on the back burner until the recommendations are clear.
XC doesn't fit into an integrated Route/TOC design which we seem to be evolving towards (East Coast Partnership etc).
Nothing is going to happen at XC until the future NR Route/TOC structure is clearer.
Arriva will get a Direct Award to soldier on for a few more years, with services staying as they are.
The only change to the mix in prospect is a shuffle of VT Voyagers if the West Coast Partnership chooses to replace them (it might not).
Even that depends on HS2 making good progress towards opening in 2026 - it seems to be entering a spell of heavy weather at the moment.

 

[The Planner]

In a previous discussion I raised the point that a “cross country type” service, didn’t necessarily have to be operated by what we currently call the Cross Country (XC) TOC. Manchester to Basingstoke via Trent Valley and Bletchley definitely appeared in a route study, but wouldn’t have to be a XC service as we know them.

The route study said that before actually finding out they don't fit which was clever.

This is why I hate the whole HS2, post-HS2 and other such capacity studies and possible services.

A service from London via the classic WCML to Piccadilly then round the Ordsall to Rochdale is ludicrous. So is a HS2 service terminating at b****y Macclesfield.

Why is terminating at Macclesfield a bad idea? The only reason it does that is because the original lay over time it had at Stoke, where the original plan to terminate was, is enough to get it to Macc and back.

 

[swt_passenger]

The route study said that before actually finding out they don't fit which was clever...

Noted. Reminder to doubt any future route study’s accuracy...