Future of TransPennine Express?

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from further separating out suburban services, I wonder if it is worth considering whether there are any routes that would be better off transferred from TPE to Northern or vice versa? E.g. the fast Leeds-Manchester via Bradford could fit better under Transpennine, and there is arguably little justification for intercity-standard trains to be serving Redcar.

Under GBR I'd have 2tph Liverpool-Newcastle fast as true InterCity services using long trains (e.g. 9 or 10 car 80x) and with full on-board service - basically the same as LNER. Similarly the WCML services would change to using as long trains as possible that can be accommodated at Manchester Airport (807s would probably be perfect) and move to the InterCity West Coast operation.

The rest would just go to Northern/Regional Railways/whatever it ends up being called as regional expresses, along with the 185s to operate them, being broadly similar to the Barrow/Windermere and the likes in concept - particularly south TPE. Though that said I could see a case for a fast Liverpool-Nottingham once an hour using 5-car 80x as a true InterCity service.

 

[SamCam]

Under GBR I'd have 2tph Liverpool-Newcastle fast as true InterCity services using long trains (e.g. 9 or 10 car 80x) and with full on-board service - basically the same as LNER. Similarly the WCML services would change to using as long trains as possible that can be accommodated at Manchester Airport (807s would probably be perfect) and move to the InterCity West Coast operation.

The rest would just go to Northern/Regional Railways/whatever it ends up being called as regional expresses, along with the 185s to operate them, being broadly similar to the Barrow/Windermere and the likes in concept - particularly south TPE. Though that said I could see a case for a fast Liverpool-Nottingham once an hour using 5-car 80x as a true InterCity service.

That makes a lot of sense - though I do think sone other places in the northeast deserve better connections to Manchester than a regional service, so I would be tempted to keep those by diverting one of the Newcastle-bound services every two hours to Middlesbrough (and maybe even one to Hull as well).

 

[frodshamfella]

An improved Liverpool - Scotland service would seem an obvious one to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An improved Liverpool - Scotland service would seem an obvious one to me.

One option would be to make the Scottish services ten-car north of Preston and to split there for Liverpool and Manchester, though I suspect you could probably fill a ten-car just from Manchester at the right price.

Perhaps the best approach would be for all Glasgows (typically quieter) to do Liverpool and Manchester, but the Edinburghs to only do Manchester as this is a more popular destination. That would give Liverpool two-hourly to Scotland which is an improvement on now.

 

[frodshamfella]

One option would be to make the Scottish services ten-car north of Preston and to split there for Liverpool and Manchester, though I suspect you could probably fill a ten-car just from Manchester at the right price.

Perhaps the best approach would be for all Glasgows (typically quieter) to do Liverpool and Manchester, but the Edinburghs to only do Manchester as this is a more popular destination. That would give Liverpool two-hourly to Scotland which is an improvement on now.

Would be a start.

 

[Meerkat]

Mayors/PTEs should get their own branding, with all/most trains that cross borders get TPE branding. TPE is well known and understood; ‘Regional Express’ is bland and non-descriptive.
How you run them is secondary. To me it seems too much to all be under a GBR Northern management, and in particular the North Eastern bit seems very separate.

 

[A S Leib]

Mayors/PTEs should get their own branding, with all/most trains that cross borders get TPE branding.

Including cases such as Lancashire if / when it gets a mayor, given that I think Preston – Blackpool South, Ormskirk and Colne are the only services which don't leave Lancashire (including Blackpool and Blackburn with Darwen).

 

[LittleAH]

Mayors/PTEs should get their own branding, with all/most trains that cross borders get TPE branding. TPE is well known and understood; ‘Regional Express’ is bland and non-descriptive.
How you run them is secondary. To me it seems too much to all be under a GBR Northern management, and in particular the North Eastern bit seems very separate.

Problem being, most of Manchester services don’t just serve what is now TfGM. Welcome to the modern world where commuter routes are cross boundary.

 

[Manutd1999]

Problem being, most of Manchester services don’t just serve what is now TfGM. Welcome to the modern world where commuter routes are cross boundary.

Is it really a problem if TfGM control routes such as Manchester-Southport/Stoke/Crewe?

With a bit of trust on all sides, backed up by suitable protections built into any devolution agreement to ensure the services are maintained, it could work perfectly well?

The majority of passengers using those services are heading to/from Manchester anyway, so would probably quite like the option of integrating their ticket with a tram journey afterwards.

 

[LittleAH]

Is it really a problem if TfGM control routes such as Manchester-Southport/Stoke/Crewe?

With a bit of trust on all sides, backed up by suitable protections built into any devolution agreement to ensure the services are maintained, it could work perfectly well?

The majority of passengers using those services are heading to/from Manchester anyway, so would probably quite like the option of integrating their ticket with a tram journey afterwards.

Andy burnham and rail outside of Manchester. Not a chance

 

[YorksLad12]

Problem being, most of Manchester services don’t just serve what is now TfGM. Welcome to the modern world where commuter routes are cross boundary.

Not modern at all, it was like that in the 1980s and 1990s as well. WY-branded units often went into SY and GM. Some units were dual branded, with a WY logo at one end and a SY one on the other.

 

[darylyates17]

Are there plans to eventually have all Chat Moss services as 802s? I am aware a couple more would have to be ordered to free up the 3 185 diagrams.

 

[The exile]

Is it really a problem if TfGM control routes such as Manchester-Southport/Stoke/Crewe?

Maybe not, but Manchester - Liverpool, Manchester - Sheffield or Sheffield - Leeds (to name but a few) make things more complicated - especially since they quite possibly continue beyond at least one of those big cities / city regions. OK, difficult in the case of Liverpool, but the point stands.

 

[LittleAH]

Are there plans to eventually have all Chat Moss services as 802s? I am aware a couple more would have to be ordered to free up the 3 185 diagrams.

Nope. More 802s will be subbing for 397s apparently so expect more 3 car 185s on hull services

 

[darylyates17]

Nope. More 802s will be subbing for 397s apparently so expect more 3 car 185s on hull services

Interesting would think they'd want more bi-modes to fully utilise the the Chat Moss & Stalybridge sections.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I am not sure if TPE would come under devolved control as it is spread across few combined authorities, but probably TfGM as the TPE head office is in Manchester. I think if GBR creates an intercity sector, then TPE likely will be merged into it with XC, GWR, LNER etc.

We would read about repeated rumours regarding the 185s' future, so are all of them actually staying with TPE for definite?

 

[danbarjon]

I am not sure if TPE would come under devolved control as it is spread across few combined authorities, but probably TfGM as the TPE head office is in Manchester. I think if GBR creates an intercity sector, then TPE likely will be merged into it with XC, GWR, LNER etc.

We would read about repeated rumours regarding the 185s' future, so are all of them actually staying with TPE for definite?

They are staying until 2029 / 2030 at least as there is a new trains tender out for 29 new five-car trains and then an option for a total of 55 five-car trains (so 26 extra trains). July 2025 is supposed to be the contract signing so I guess we will know the final amount of trains after then and specifications.

 

[WAB]

I am not sure if TPE would come under devolved control as it is spread across few combined authorities, but probably TfGM as the TPE head office is in Manchester. I think if GBR creates an intercity sector, then TPE likely will be merged into it with XC, GWR, LNER etc.

Politically, handing over control to Yorkshire's rivals over the Pennines would be challenging. Realistically, it'd end up being a joint operation or an XC-style operator.

 

[Snow1964]

TPE has issued media update on how it has changed since public ownership

Since transferring into public ownership in May 2023, TPE has reduced cancellations by 75%, increased customer journeys by 42%, and grown revenue by 54%.

In the last financial year alone, the operator generated £1.4 billion in economic value, delivering more than £8 in return for every £1 of public subsidy.

This bit I find interesting, whilst some operators are dumping First class, suggests having enhanced catering in First class is the way to improve experience for customers

The introduction of enhanced First Class catering, major accessibility improvements and new services have all contributed to a significantly improved customer experience.

TransPennine Express Shows the Transformative Power of Public Ownership | TransPennine Express News

News from TransPennine Express

mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

This bit I find interesting, whilst some operators are dumping First class, suggests having enhanced catering in First class is the way to improve experience for customers

The value of First Class differs between commuter operations and long distance ones. To be fair TPE is a bit of both, but this increase will have come mostly from longer distance passengers, not commuters.

 

[duffield]

It's something to counter the posts that pop up frequently here saying that only Intercity services terminating in London need/deserve 1st class.

 

[A S Leib]

It's something to counter the posts that pop up frequently here saying that only Intercity services terminating in London need/deserve 1st class.

I wonder how many first class passengers on London services aren't going to or from London; it's more than I'm willing to pay for Newcastle to London (that I've seen so far) so my LNER first class journeys so far have almost all been between York or Edinburgh and Newcastle.

 

[danbarjon]

I regularly travel TPE First Class (roughly every 3 weeks over the past 8 years) I can confirm it has definitely changed and for the better. The food is amazing on the Coast to Coast menu and I appreciate the friendly staff and helpful information they give. If I compare TPE to a few years ago I dreaded travelling with them and usually diverted myself to other companies but now I love it and it's easier for me to travel with them (Newcastle to Liverpool so it's direct)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not modern at all, it was like that in the 1980s and 1990s as well. WY-branded units often went into SY and GM. Some units were dual branded, with a WY logo at one end and a SY one on the other.

Were they? Presumably you're referring to first-gen units here, as the first time I can recall seeing both WY and SY logos on the same unit was during Serco/Abellio Northern days when the 144s and some 153s (and possibly the 321/322 sets) were branded that way.

 

[Snow1964]

DfT has updated its procurement spreadsheet 27 May 2025

For TPE the estimated contract commencement date is now 27/02/26
contract length 96 months (8 years) reduced from 144 months in post #12
Still multimode fleet of 29 units (with option of upto 55 units)
the procurement is negotiated (not competitive tender)

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

 

[thelongestroad]

TPE has issued media update on how it has changed since public ownership



This bit I find interesting, whilst some operators are dumping First class, suggests having enhanced catering in First class is the way to improve experience for customers

TransPennine Express Shows the Transformative Power of Public Ownership | TransPennine Express News

News from TransPennine Express

mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk

I'm always intrigued to know whether the TPE improvements were because of them being nationalised, or despite them being nationalised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm always intrigued to know whether the TPE improvements were because of them being nationalised, or despite them being nationalised.

Or that their nationalisation had nothing to do with it, positive or negative, which is more likely.

Was there a change of MD? If so it's probably that, with a new MD often comes a new strategy.

 

[LittleAH]

Or that their nationalisation had nothing to do with it, positive or negative, which is more likely.

Was there a change of MD? If so it's probably that, with a new MD often comes a new strategy.

Or that nationalisation freed up the funds to negotiate with trade unions, to make the then government’s decision look like the right one, when it wasn’t allowed under First Group…

The PR is DFTO trying to showcase nationalisation works. There are still many issues at TPE, some of which has come since nationalisation.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Even if GBR wasn't happening, and if TPE hadn't suffered from the issues that lead to it being brought under the Operator of Last Resort, there'd probably be some sense in bring it in-house while the route upgrade is ongoing.

As for the future, it's a strong and well-established brand despite the poor performance of recent years. With only a short period in the early 1990s where the Trans-Pennine brand wasn't used at all. Even MTL/Northern Spirit saw the value in having separate branding for the fast trains across the hills. Whether that strong brand will survive under the supervision of an easily-distracted DfT or the possibly competing desires of certain Metro Mayors, is another matter.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm always intrigued to know whether the TPE improvements were because of them being nationalised, or despite them being nationalised.

The biggest improvement is the longer trains - privatised era, followed by sorting out the staff shortages - nationalised era.