Future of TPE

[InkyScrolls]

In your ideal outcome, what would you like to see happen to TPE? It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could bevmerged with Northern; as far as I'm concerned that would be the best option, but how would that work in practice? And is that the best course to pursue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In your ideal outcome, what would you like to see happen to TPE? It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could bevmerged with Northern; as far as I'm concerned that would be the best option, but how would that work in practice? And is that the best course to pursue?

Trouble is Northern seems unmanageably big, though overall I could see benefits there (e.g. you could run 80x to Barrow/Windermere at busy times). It worked fairly well when it was part of Regional Railways North East.

I think if they do then Manchester-Scotland should go to Avanti West Coast, Northern would make a right hash of their one true IC route.

 

[MattRat]

Trouble is Northern seems unmanageably big, though overall I could see benefits there (e.g. you could run 80x to Barrow/Windermere at busy times). It worked fairly well when it was part of Regional Railways North East.

I think if they do then Manchester-Scotland should go to Avanti West Coast, Northern would make a right hash of their one true IC route.

Or 185s on some of the longer Northern services to free up 195s to replace 150s.

 

[David Goddard]

Always an interesting discussion on this, for a TOC that was spawned out of the original RR North East franchise and then grew in the west as well.
It's logical that the WCML service could move to the West Coast Main Line operator, and as for the rest, initial thoughts were that the Liverpool - Cleethorpes service could just drop over to Northern, as would the Huddersfield stoppers, but then that leaves the core North East service, which if moving to another TOC leaves just LNER or Cross Country as potential recipients

So, is the solution for TPE to carve up a small franchise and dump its remains elsewhere, or should it actually be expanded to pick up more services that meet the "Transpennine" definition. As per another comment above, Northern is unmanageably big, and so one solution could solve both problems.

Also, just because the current service patterns (Manchester to Leeds then four different destinations on the East coast) have been there for years, it does not mean they have to stay like that.

Potential additions could include:
*Liverpool - Nottingham (assuming the long discussed split of the EMR Norwich service does happen)
*Blackpool - York
*Chester - Leeds
*Leeds - Carlisle & Morecambe (remember, the pennines reach all the way to the Tyne gap)

As we are in the safe space of the speculative ideas section I post this in the hope of not getting shot down!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Depends on whether devolution of rail services to Gtr. Manchester, Merseyside and West Yorkshire is a thing or not - in which case it would be TPE picking up any residual Northern services outside those areas. Frankly, another reorganisation and instability is the last thing we want - call me old-fashioned, but it would be nice if the focus was on, you know, actually running trains and provide a reliable service for once.

 

[Mag_seven]

It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could bevmerged with Northern;

Imagine how big the daily cancellation list on JourneyCheck would be!

 

[alansheppard77]

In your ideal outcome, what would you like to see happen to TPE? It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could bevmerged with Northern; as far as I'm concerned that would be the best option, but how would that work in practice? And is that the best course to pursue?

Tpe needs getting rid of asap

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If TPE and Northern were merged, I wouldn't expect much change at least initially. Certainly the suggestion that suddenly there'd be 802s available to run to Barrow is naive in the extreme and disregards how the railway works. The crews that drive 802s don't sign the line to Barrow, and the crews that sign Barrow don't sign 802s.

It's also worth remembering that a single operator for the whole of the North of England has never happened before (at least post-1994). When TPE was part of Northern Spirit, almost everything West of the Pennines was First North Western.

 

[urbophile]

Trouble is Northern seems unmanageably big, though overall I could see benefits there (e.g. you could run 80x to Barrow/Windermere at busy times). It worked fairly well when it was part of Regional Railways North East.

I think if they do then Manchester-Scotland should go to Avanti West Coast, Northern would make a right hash of their one true IC route.

You mean Avanti wouldn't?

 

[MattRat]

You mean Avanti wouldn't?

What about XC for the IC services? They at least try with what they've got.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean Avanti wouldn't?

I'm no particular fan of Avanti (other than the Pendolino refurb, which is everything they should have been to begin with bar the rubbish buffet car), but they're nowhere near as bad as TPE.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

Depends on whether devolution of rail services to Gtr. Manchester, Merseyside and West Yorkshire is a thing or not - in which case it would be TPE picking up any residual Northern services outside those areas. Frankly, another reorganisation and instability is the last thing we want - call me old-fashioned, but it would be nice if the focus was on, you know, actually running trains and provide a reliable service for once.

That's an interesting point. If you consider that Northern could well soon lose a load of urban commuter routes to the PTEs' own operations, then "rump Northern" of regional expresses and branch lines merging with TPE could create something a bit like GWR (an InterCity spine with connecting rural branches), and that really works quite well. Minus all the GM, West Yorks, South Yorks and Merseyside suburban locals (and those that run between the two run as some sort of olde-worlde joint urban bus operation type thing) it wouldn't be too big either.

 

[YorksLad12]

What should happen to TPE? Nothing, until after TRU.

At that point, you might consider morphing TransPennine Express into Northern Express (say), and creating a sub-brand for the fast and semi-fast routes, with modern rolling stock suited to the purpose. You could also then break Northern down into discrete operating units, such as for the north east (which doesn't connect with anywhere else), or a Lincolnshire unit, depending on depot locations. Forget the PTE/CA (Andy Burnham) posturing for now, that's a long way away, if it happens at all.

Equally, you could merge TPE and XC as they are both doing the same job; just that one goes north-south and the other east-west. But I prefer the option above over this.

Fascinating fact: 1 April this year sees the end of the seven-year TPE franchise that started in 2016. Seven years plus two, it was (Northern got nine years plus one).

 

[p.d87]

Purely speculative and with an open cheque book.

Liverpool to Cleethorpes over to EMR including Sheffield/ Cleethorpes Traincrew depots. Cl185 would also move across to EMR to work these. TUPE some of Liverpool TPE depot across to EMR to offer a West Side train crew depot. They had originally planned one. This means 1 TOC operating the long distance services across the Hope Valley. This route I feel fits better with the east mids franchise.

TPE WCML Scotland services to the West Coast operator. Including TUPE of relevant traincrew depots. All work to be covered by Glasgow, Edinburgh, Preston and Manchester Piccadilly depots. This would need a recruitment drive to ensure sufficient traincrew are available based on the current situation at both TPE and Avanti, the TPE catering staff brought in-house to the West Coast Operator in line with current Avanti staff. Additional Hitachi 5 car pure electric would be ordered for class 397 replacement to work Scotland to Manchester/ Liverpool services (potentially more than the 12 replacements of cl397 to allow 10car Preston to Scotland then split/ join Manchester and Liverpool, I'd want some Edinburgh to Liverpool direct) it would also be specced to the current 805/807 interiors to bring the catering offer/ overall customer experience in line with the rest of the West coast routes.

North TPE is where it gets tricky as I'd want to keep it as an intercity type route including 1st and Catering. Should LNER operate to Manchester and Liverpool? I don't think these routes fit with them. XC is Birmingham centric so perhaps not the right TOC to add these routes into, although they do operate Leeds to Edinburgh over the same route and they already have traincrew depots at Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle and a similar catering offer so possibly not a bad idea after all. I'd include the Newcastle to Edinburgh locals in this if they don't eventually move to Scotrail.

Northern I'd want to keep as the local operator, they are large enough without adding extra onto it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure I support the idea of bringing in the PTEs to directly operate services, not least because there are so many services that cross boundaries. Back in the day Metro did some decent work with the flat-pack stations and rolling-stock procurement, but I wouldn't trust Metro of today not to mess it up: this is the same organisation that funded a council installing Kassel kerbs for buses, and then installed bus shelters on top of them rendering them useless!

 

[CE142]

TPE has been a complete and utter shambles since pre-Covid. They hid behind Northern when Andy Burnham was so vocal about Arriva running Northern, which wsn't actually Arriva's fault! That was down to the DFT and Network Rail agreeing to the franchise running an impossible timetable, also along with the DFT saying that the DOO dispute would only last a couple of weeks. 47 days of strike action later....
TPE are still hiding behind Northern and since Covid and the collapse of the WMCL Avanti West Coast, every problem isn't there's, when actaully simce the franchise started it's always been their problem!

 

[Some guy]

TPE has been a complete and utter shambles since pre-Covid. They hid behind Northern when Andy Burnham was so vocal about Arriva running Northern, which wsn't actually Arriva's fault! That was down to the DFT and Network Rail agreeing to the franchise running an impossible timetable, also along with the DFT saying that the DOO dispute would only last a couple of weeks. 47 days of strike action later....
TPE are still hiding behind Northern and since Covid and the collapse of the WMCL Avanti West Coast, every problem isn't there's, when actaully simce the franchise started it's always been their problem!

Indeed they’ve been a complete and utter joke. It’s down to cutting down on drivers and conductors signing routes. For example Manchester used to have a job all the way to Edinburgh and back but now they don’t get go past Preston. Liverpool conductors used to go all the way to Newcastle meaning the trains was unlikely to get cancelled now they change at Vic, Leeds, York

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think Northern has a bad enough image as it is!

 

[daodao]

In your ideal outcome, what would you like to see happen to TPE? It's been hinted by Huw Merriman today that the company could be merged with Northern; as far as I'm concerned that would be the best option, but how would that work in practice? And is that the best course to pursue?

I would get rid of TPE and transfer its services to other TOCs as follows:

• to Avanti WC - WCML services from Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow via Carlisle, and run them from Manchester Victoria, not the Airport
• to GNER - Express services via Standedge from Liverpool to York and onwards to Middlesbrough/Tees-side and to Newcastle
• to XC/GNER - local stops/services currently provided by TPE between Newcastle and Edinburgh
• to EMR - South Transpennine services from Liverpool via Sheffield to Cleethorpes
• to Northern - local/semi-fast services from Manchester via Standedge to Huddersfield/Leeds/Scarborough/Hull. I would start the stopping services at Manchester Victoria platforms 1/2 and the semi-fast services at Manchester Piccadilly platforms 1/2/3, with no services running through from the Airport
• to Northern - replacement all station stopping services for the TPE services to Manchester Airport, which would terminate at the main Piccadilly trainshed

 

[YorksLad12]

North TPE is where it gets tricky as I'd want to keep it as an intercity type route including 1st and Catering. Should LNER operate to Manchester and Liverpool? I don't think these routes fit with them. XC is Birmingham centric so perhaps not the right TOC to add these routes into, although they do operate Leeds to Edinburgh over the same route and they already have traincrew depots at Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle and a similar catering offer so possibly not a bad idea after all. I'd include the Newcastle to Edinburgh locals in this if they don't eventually move to Scotrail.

Well... you could extend EMRs St Pancras to Sheffield services to Manchester. Not via Victoria, Penistone and Woodhead, obviously The disadvantage is that passengers from Cleethopes and Doncaster would have to change at Sheffield. The advantage is that they will soon have better units for the onward section.

I'm not sure I support the idea of bringing in the PTEs to directly operate services, not least because there are so many services that cross boundaries. Back in the day Metro did some decent work with the flat-pack stations and rolling-stock procurement, but I wouldn't trust Metro of today not to mess it up: this is the same organisation that funded a council installing Kassel kerbs for buses, and then installed bus shelters on top of them rendering them useless!

I think it's likely that the PTEs/CAs would go back to the sitation in the 1980s, where they 'sponsored' (meaning 'paid for') some services under whichever section agreement it was. It can't be a full contracting/franchising sitation, otherwise we could end up with three different operators for WY, SY and GM - and I don't think the PTEs will be in the market to employ and train train crew anyway. Not if they have any sense, anyway.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I suppose you could have a 'Metro-North' type arrangement like in the USA, which is jointly owned by New York and Connecticut , or New Jersey Transit
which operates some lines over the state line west of the Hudson on behalf of New York.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it's likely that the PTEs/CAs would go back to the sitation in the 1980s, where they 'sponsored' (meaning 'paid for') some services under whichever section agreement it was. It can't be a full contracting/franchising sitation, otherwise we could end up with three different operators for WY, SY and GM - and I don't think the PTEs will be in the market to employ and train train crew anyway. Not if they have any sense, anyway.

Part of the problem is that the PTE boundaries are quite arbitrary. In terms of the Yorkshire ones, I'd like to see single body responsible for organising public transport for the whole of Yorkshire- but more akin to the German state boards than the way PTEs have always operated here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the problem is that the PTE boundaries are quite arbitrary. In terms of the Yorkshire ones, I'd like to see single body responsible for organising public transport for the whole of Yorkshire- but more akin to the German state boards than the way PTEs have always operated here.

I could see the sense in that, but would also see that combining Merseytravel and TfGM would just result in all the money and attention going to Manchester and stuff like the 777s would never have happened. Meanwhile TfN is just a bit too big.

The PTEs should probably expand a bit in line with the natural travel to work areas of those cities, though, e.g. Ormskirk, Burscough, Skem and Runcorn should be in Merseytravel, and TfGM should probably go a bit further into Cheshire and Derbyshire, e.g. to include New Mills. It's happened elsewhere, e.g. the Hamburger Verkehrsverbund has expanded since the 1990s.

However the likes of TPE will always sit on top of that as it covers a much wider area.

 

[YorksLad12]

Part of the problem is that the PTE boundaries are quite arbitrary. In terms of the Yorkshire ones, I'd like to see single body responsible for organising public transport for the whole of Yorkshire- but more akin to the German state boards than the way PTEs have always operated here.

I could see the sense in that, but would also see that combining Merseytravel and TfGM would just result in all the money and attention going to Manchester and stuff like the 777s would never have happened. Meanwhile TfN is just a bit too big.

The PTEs should probably expand a bit in line with the natural travel to work areas of those cities, though, e.g. Ormskirk, Burscough, Skem and Runcorn should be in Merseytravel, and TfGM should probably go a bit further into Cheshire and Derbyshire, e.g. to include New Mills. It's happened elsewhere, e.g. the Hamburger Verkehrsverbund has expanded since the 1990s.

However the likes of TPE will always sit on top of that as it covers a much wider area.

The other problem is that some areas no longer have PTEs - West Yorkshire being the obvious one. Yes, the CA absorbed all of its functions, but that means there isn't a dedicated transport body any more. Having worked at the former and latter, it does make a difference. South Yorkshire has now merged its PTE in with its CA as well, not sure where we are with the others.

But as CAs have 'hard' boundaries compared to the 'soft' boundaries of the soon-to-be-former Local Enterprise Partnerships it's not always easy to extend to the natural travel-to-work areas any more. Barnsley was part of Leeds City Region but sits in South Yorkshire - who funds those services? Should be SY, but they'd only be doing it to see people travel north to Wakefield and Leeds.

I'm trying to remember from Rail North days, but didn't GM and WY between them have 60% of passenger rail services scross what is now TfN's patch? That will have included some areas now not in TfN-land (Staffordshire, Nottingham & Nottinghamshire, Derby & Derbyshire, I think).

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as CAs have 'hard' boundaries compared to the 'soft' boundaries of the soon-to-be-former Local Enterprise Partnerships it's not always easy to extend to the natural travel-to-work areas any more. Barnsley was part of Leeds City Region but sits in South Yorkshire - who funds those services? Should be SY, but they'd only be doing it to see people travel north to Wakefield and Leeds.

That strikes me as an error. If Barnsley mostly associates to Leeds (I don't know it), then it needs to be in the same Governmental structures as Leeds, including and especially transport.

That Ormskirk isn't in the Liverpool City Region is similarly stupid. It has very little to do with Preston and the rest of Lancashire.

 

[Iskra]

That strikes me as an error. If Barnsley mostly associates to Leeds (I don't know it), then it needs to be in the same Governmental structures as Leeds, including and especially transport.

That Ormskirk isn't in the Liverpool City Region is similarly stupid. It has very little to do with Preston and the rest of Lancashire.

I'd say Barnsley goes 60/40 to Sheffield rather than Leeds for commuting/business.

But for Leisure (mainly on weekends) I'd say it's more 70/30 in Leeds' favour.

Purely from my own experiences of travelling on the Hallam Line.

- - - -

I would also leave TP as it is. Interference isn't going to improve anything at all in the short term. Wait until the franchise expires and then give it to OLR, or maybe TfN could have a go?

 

[RailWonderer]

I think if they do then Manchester-Scotland should go to Avanti West Coast, Northern would make a right hash of their one true IC route.

If Avanti took on that route they could either use the 397s or use their new IETs on those routes and let Northern use the 397s on Manchester - Leeds and York - Newcastle taken on from TPE.

TPE has always been a 'fast Northern' to me and the problem with transferring all their services to other operators is they would be treated as secondary routes to XC, LNER and possibly Avanti. Northern doesn't have a single primary route to speak of which makes it a better option to take on more TPE routes and it's a unique ToC where no one route gets preference with regard to rolling stock or frequency.

Northern is really only prone to infrastructure limitations and operarating their stock on a tight availability, so my vote goes to Northern for some stoppers, Avanti for the Anglo Scots and keep TPE streamlined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Avanti took on that route they could either use the 397s or use their new IETs on those routes and let Northern use the 397s on Manchester - Leeds and York - Newcastle.

I have thought this about the 7 car IETs. There is a need for a bit more capacity on the route (but not quite double sets, which also don't fit Manchester Airport station), there are about the right number, and I think it's very likely that the second Liverpool and third Birmingham they were intended for will never run. This being the case these units would be left spare and it seems a very sensible thing to use them for.

The route has long been a poor fit for TPE and they've never quite run it properly.

Meanwhile isn't LNER after some 125mph EMUs so the remaining Mk4s can go, and not bothered about a microfleet?

 

[Halifaxlad]

I have thought this about the 7 car IETs. There is a need for a bit more capacity on the route (but not quite double sets, which also don't fit Manchester Airport station), there are about the right number, and I think it's very likely that the second Liverpool and third Birmingham they were intended for will never run. This being the case these units would be left spare and it seems a very sensible thing to use them for.

The route has long been a poor fit for TPE and they've never quite run it properly.

Meanwhile isn't LNER after some 125mph EMUs so the remaining Mk4s can go, and not bothered about a microfleet?

Considering TRU has been designed to accommodate services with a length of 8 coaches anything less seems such a waste!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering TRU has been designed to accommodate services with a length of 8 coaches anything less seems such a waste!

TRU is of no relevance to the WCML services which don't cross the Pennines in any form. (Where's that TOC misnomer thread when you need it? )

 

[Northumbriana]

Merge TPE and Northern Connect and run it as a premium Northern express service.