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Yes many people prefer to buy online but some less straightforward purchases are not (yet?) available online, but such purchases can be refused by staff, for a example excess fares.
The average person may not even realise excess fares exist.
Sadly the level of knowledge is not as consistently as good as it should be.
It's good to hear good experiences but i also get to hear of bad experiences on a regular basis. If more products were available online, this would reduce the problems.
Many people prefer to buy online, so only use ticket offices for those products which are not yet available online (which should be; it's 2013 for goodness sake!)
I buy online myself now and am happy enough to use the planners. My friend is different which is why I was by the ticket office!
I fully accept the knowledge is inconsistent. As I say Ramsgate just seems to be good staff wise and other SouthEastern stations I've used have been fine.
Definitely agree that more products should be available online.
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Bear in mind some of us work in (or closely with people who are ) in a capacity where we become aware of people who have been incorrectly refused travel, in addition to those matters which get posted here. We are only aware of the tip of the iceberg but it has been brought to my attention on many occasions that ticket office staff have erroneously climes valid tickets are invalid.
If my experiences were purely as a passenger, I wouldn't be aware of those matters.
Other than “good service”, the main arguments for keeping ticket offices open seem to be:
- A lack of availability of products (such as rangers and rovers) elsewhere. This could be fixed very quickly if the RDG got with the times and actually bothered to offer these online. They can also be purchased from Northern TVM’s so offering these from all other TVM’s shouldn’t be an issue.
- A lack of advice/guidance for routing and validity being available. Provided there are still staff to assist with station operational duties and to supervise TVM’s/ticket barriers (which there would be under these proposals), this shouldn’t be an issue.
There is a good level of knowledge on this forum.
This should not however provide a justification for the lack of knowledge/understanding regarding validity/routing often displayed by a significant number of ticket office staff.
If a member of ticket office staff is unsure about the validity of a certain ticket, that ticket should always be sold and the passenger can use the ticket as they intend to (and if there are any validity issues, these can be addressed when the passenger chooses to use said ticket).
Unfortunately this does not happen in practice and perfectly valid tickets are refused sale by ticket offices on a very regular basis.
That is true, and is a typical example of negativity bias.
That said, I certainly don’t see how any of the above argument constitute a solid reason why it is operationally or economically sensible to keep ticket offices open at the present time.
I got pulled into this discussion because my partner is partially sighted and I am well aware of the issues that she will face if the proposals for Ramsgate go ahead. I've referred to them a number of times
To me it's not so much the ticketing but the help and support that will be (or not be) available for travellers like her that is the real concern
As I've said before she's said to me that this will likely mean she won't try to travel independently by train again should they go ahead
...I got pulled into this discussion because my partner is partially sighted and I am well aware of the issues that she will face if the proposals for Ramsgate go ahead. I've referred to them a number of times..
If she struggles to buy a ticket using the machines*, and there are no staff issuing tickets, she would be entitled to board the train and pay on board. No-one can be denied travel on this basis.
(* And if she either is unable to buy online or simply chooses not to; no-one can be forced to buy online and there is no suggestion of this changing)
The proposals do not suggest removing staff from stations altogether or change anything related to accessibility.
In fact, the railway is committed to ensuring accessible travel and this will not change.
It’s a common rhetoric amongst those who are against the closures to suggest that this will reduce accessibility. This will not be the case.
Those with accessibility needs will always be supported
You will still be able to book assistance two hours in advance of your journey either using the Passenger Assistance app or via a dedicated phoneline available 24/7 and you will always be able to access help and advice from a trained representative. New mobile assistance teams will be created to offer extra help where needed, including for stations which are currently unstaffed. The commitment to the 20-minute 'turn up and go' will be maintained.
You can't provide the same level of service and cut costs, you have to reduce the headcount to achieve that. That means single staff stations will go down to weekly visits at my TOC. If you want to turn up and get assistance you won't be able to at an unstaffed station, you'll need to book ahead so someone is there. That is a reduction in access, regardless of if you agree or disagree with the cost/benefit ratio of this move.
You can't provide the same level of service and cut costs, you have to reduce the headcount to achieve that. That means single staff stations will go down to weekly visits at my TOC. If you want to turn up and get assistance you won't be able to at an unstaffed station, you'll need to book ahead so someone is there. That is a reduction in access, regardless of if you agree or disagree with the cost/benefit ratio of this move.
On DOO routes that'll be an issue, but surely the guard is in a position to provide assistance at pretty much every simple 2-platform local station, just like they do at the hundreds of unstaffed stations like this throughout the North?
On DOO routes that'll be an issue, but surely the guard is in a position to provide assistance at pretty much every simple 2-platform local station, just like they do at the hundreds of unstaffed stations like this throughout the North?
The guard will not be able to help at locations like Hexham, Workington and Grange, where access to one of the platforms is by a gated barrow crossing.
The guard will not be able to help at locations like Hexham, Workington and Grange, where access to one of the platforms is by a gated barrow crossing.
Those stations need to have a footbridge with lifts or ramps installed, then you've got better accessibility because at present it's only available during booking office hours. Or look at whether it'd be possible to have all trains serve the one platform - I think it'd be possible at Ulverston, I've never seen two trains there at once, though obviously it'd require signalling changes. Or fit proper level crossing kit to the barrow crossing to allow it to be used unsupervised as you often get in Germany. Or at Grange over Sands you've got the subway which has ramped access to one platform, it might be possible to arrange that to be to both.
The biggest problem with this closure programme is I suppose not the closure programme, but that the alternatives aren't being worked out and put in place first. Though as Grange is basically an elderly peoples' holiday resort, I'd actually keep that booking office open in preference to Barrow.
Are those reports a representative sample, or do they just reglect repeated reports of a few bad eggs? You've mentioned Sheffield, I think that I've seen Meadowhall, and apparently Merseyrail small ticket offices used to have a reputation that still persists in a few areas.
Or look at whether it'd be possible to have all trains serve the one platform - I think it'd be possible at Ulverston, I've never seen two trains there at once, though obviously it'd require signalling changes.
Over 1800 postings in a month- that's quite a large 'consultation' to analyse and produce 'results' in itself. How long have Transport Focus got? How many person-hours? Who is paying- ultimately the punter of course unless the free lunch or money tree turns up. And to what effect? Dither and delay or just delay?
Are William Hill (other outfits available) taking bets?
On all my rail travels this year, I've yet to get poor service from a booking office. Some clerks have been more chatty than others but they've always been helpful and professional.
Greater Anglia staff at Cambridge North are unable to provide a ticket office service, the only available tickets are those on the ticket vending machines which does not include Anglia Plus tickets. Anglia Plus tickets can be purchased on the Greater Anglia regional trains but Cambridge North has ticket gates so passengers would somehow have to persuade ticket gate staff to allow them through the ticket gates without a ticket so they can buy their Anglia Plus ticket on the train. The only person I ever saw providing a ticket office service at Cambridge North Station was a visiting member of Govia Thameslink Railway staff taking advantage of Greater Anglia's failure to provide a ticket office service with their "station hosting" system at Cambridge North. I hope Greater Anglia will now add Anglia Plus and other missing tickets to their ticket vending machines, especially as they want to close the ticket office at Ely Station which also has ticket gates. My guess is they failed to do so previously because they would have to pay the TVM supplier to add the missing tickets to the ticket vending machines, an issue which all train operators will now face if they go ahead with the closure of all ticket offices.
The ticket office staff at my current local station are excellent and have offered tickets which I purchased for some journeys which I was not aware of and which have saved me a lot of money. However reading comments on this forum and elsewhere the ticket office service clearly varies from station to station.
Greater Anglia staff at Cambridge North are unable to provide a ticket office service, the only available tickets are those on the ticket vending machines which does not include Anglia Plus tickets. Anglia Plus tickets can be purchased on the Greater Anglia regional trains but Cambridge North has ticket gates so passengers would somehow have to persuade ticket gate staff to allow them through the ticket gates without a ticket so they can buy their Anglia Plus ticket on the train. The only person I ever saw providing a ticket office service at Cambridge North Station was a visiting member of Govia Thameslink Railway staff taking advantage of Greater Anglia's failure to provide a ticket office service with their "station hosting" system at Cambridge North. I hope Greater Anglia will now add Anglia Plus and other missing tickets to their ticket vending machines, especially as they want to close the ticket office at Ely Station which also has ticket gates. My guess is they failed to do so previously because they would have to pay the TVM supplier to add the missing tickets to the ticket vending machines, an issue which all train operators will now face if they go ahead with the closure of all ticket offices.
The ticket office staff at my current local station are excellent and have offered tickets which I purchased for some journeys which I was not aware of and which have saved me a lot of money
Do you have examples of this? If it's rovers or rangers, these should be available online. If you mean combinations of split ticketing, ticket offices are instructed not to do this, but some ticket offices do so anyway.
It absolutely does; however most people prefer to buy online and therefore the only requests many people have are for the sort of requests that can't - but should - be made online. As these are the more complicated requests, such as for excess fares etc, then it is unfortunately not always the case that the requests are fulfilled.
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Do you have examples of this? If it's rovers or rangers, these should be available online. If you mean combinations of split ticketing, ticket offices are instructed not to do this, but some ticket offices do so anyway.
One example for a day trip to two locations instead of three singles A to B, B to C, C back to A the ticket office staff member offered a day return visiting the two locations by breaking the outward and return journeys as travel to the destination on the ticket was valid via both locations. I had not thought of doing this and it reduced the cost by more than half. Another is the return to London Underground zone 1 which I was not previously aware of and which cost less than the return ticket to London terminals and using contactless for the underground.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". People are hardly going to start a thread every time everything was fine. Unless you've actually totted up the various threads to show that they are nationally representative then I'm not going to take whinging about Sheffield as evidence that all (or even most) ticket offices are appalling.
Now that someone has added Rotherham to the list of "unhelpful" ticket offices I am coming to the conclusion that there must be something in the water in South Yorkshire, because it's not reflected in my experience in Wales, Cheshire, Merseyside, Bristol, London and Manchester. I see passengers bring in Thank You cards and boxes of chocolates to various booking offices. They wouldn't do that if the staff were surly and unhelpful.
Now that someone has added Rotherham to the list of "unhelpful" ticket offices I am coming to the conclusion that there must be something in the water in South Yorkshire, because it's not reflected in my experience in Wales, Cheshire, Merseyside, Bristol, London and Manchester. I see passengers bring in Thank You cards and boxes of chocolates to various booking offices. They wouldn't do that if the staff were surly and unhelpful.
Merseyside? The land of "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" and (at Lime St) "There is no ticket to go to London via Birmingham"? (At the time I didn't know it was valid that way "as standard"). Or the guy at Aughton Park who had difficulty with "day ticket, please"?
Merseyrail booking offices are beyond pointless. I get the benefits of guards, but the booking offices would be better replaced with e-tickets, contactless and two TVMs per station.
Unless you've actually totted up the various threads to show that they are nationally representative then I'm not going to take whinging about Sheffield as evidence that all (or even most) ticket offices are appalling.
Now that someone has added Rotherham to the list of "unhelpful" ticket offices I am coming to the conclusion that there must be something in the water in South Yorkshire, because it's not reflected in my experience in Wales, Cheshire, Merseyside, Bristol, London and Manchester. I see passengers bring in Thank You cards and boxes of chocolates to various booking offices. They wouldn't do that if the staff were surly and unhelpful.
It's not about creating a list of "unhelpful" ticket offices; most people have no desire to have to visit a ticket office and simply want the full range of fares to be available online. Is that too much to ask?
I type this looking at King's Cross ticket office and I note that half the former office is now a Family Waiting area, which is a very positive development in my opinion. I have bad memories of long queues at what was once a very busy ticket office (these days deserted) and being refused excess fares. At my destination, the former large ticket office is now a popular supermarket, while a the new ticket office is an absolutely tiny little office that is deserted on the rare occasions I've gone there to spend an RTV or buy a PlusBus. (fortunately PlusBus is available on the forum's ticket site now, so again that will reduce my visits!)
One example for a day trip to two locations instead of three singles A to B, B to C, C back to A the ticket office staff member offered a day return visiting the two locations by breaking the outward and return journeys as travel to the destination on the ticket was valid via both locations. I had not thought of doing this and it reduced the cost by more than half.
That is lucky as ticket offices are not obliged to offer this. Can you elaborate on what the journey was? I suspect not many ticket offices would offer this!
Another is the return to London Underground zone 1 which I was not previously aware of and which cost less than the return ticket to London terminals and using contactless for the underground.
The forum's site would offer that; most people prefer online sales these days and more and more tickets are available online. But we need the full range to be.
Merseyside? The land of "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" and (at Lime St) "There is no ticket to go to London via Birmingham"? (At the time I didn't know it was valid that way "as standard"). Or the guy at Aughton Park who had difficulty with "day ticket, please"?
I've little experience of the Northern Line, but Merseyrail staff on the Wirral Line have always been perfectly friendly in my experience. Merseyrail is not the only operator on Merseyside in any case.
I'm sure that I remember a poster (god knows how many pages back, I'm not bothering to look) said that your experience isn't the norm these days.
I've little experience of the Northern Line, but Merseyrail staff on the Wirral Line have always been perfectly friendly in my experience. Merseyrail is not the only operator on Merseyside in any case.
I'm sure that I remember a poster (god knows how many pages back, I'm not bothering to look) said that your experience isn't the norm these days.
Even if a poor experience isn't "the norm", the experience on Merseyrail isn't great. Most people just want to go online, have the full range of fares available, get an e-ticket and simply get on the train. Even if the staff are helpful, my idea of a seamless travel experience isn't to queue up at a shop!
But if the, in your view, ignorant and surly ticket office staff are merely being redeployed, as #1863 assures us is the case, why would you expect them to know this or be prepared to do this?
And when granny goes to the booking office to plan a trip to visit her grandson, she's not going to start a thread because "the nice gentleman was ever so helpful". She may well bring in a card however.
It's just the impression I'm getting from your constant whinges about Sheffield. Someone said that they had travelled widely and never had a bad experience and you scoffed, stating that you were "surprised" - just because you dislike one particular ticket office.
I can confidently state (no I haven't done a survey, I'm still confident anyway) that your experience of Sheffield is markedly different to the experience of the majority of passengers who use booking offices.
Even if a poor experience isn't "the norm", the experience on Merseyrail isn't great. Most people just want to go online, have the full range of fares available, get an e-ticket and simply get on the train. Even if the staff are helpful, my idea of a seamless travel experience isn't to queue up at a shop!
Yep. I don't want to be forced to use a booking office. If I'm staying at my parents' I want to buy an e-ticket while I'm walking to the station, or even better just to tap my phone and tap off at the other end. And I want to be able to buy an e-ticket to go there, too.
But if the, in your view, ignorant and surly ticket office staff are merely being redeployed, as #1863 assures us is the case, why would you expect them to know this or be prepared to do this?
They need to be instructed, it's as simple as that. Do you have any examples of passengers being refused access in these circumstances, and if so what did the relevant company say?
Can you also clarify what you mean by "...in your view, ignorant and surly..."; whose words are they and is this an attempt at a strawman argument?
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And when granny goes to the booking office to plan a trip to visit her grandson, she's not going to start a thread because "the nice gentleman was ever so helpful". She may well bring in a card however.
Can you quote exactly what it is I've said that you are unhappy with please, rather than make dispraging remarks, inaccurate claims and strawman arguments?
. Someone said that they had travelled widely and never had a bad experience and you scoffed, stating that you were "surprised" - just because you dislike one particular ticket office.
Not for that reason at all; did I say that? I also didn't say I "dislike" that ticket office. I suggest you read what has actually been said, rather than what you seem to want to read.
I can confidently state (no I haven't done a survey, I'm still confident anyway) that your experience of Sheffield is markedly different to the experience of the majority of passengers who use booking offices.
The majority of passengers simply want to be able to buy online and don't want any hassle of queuing at ticket offices.
I am not suggesting that the majority of passengers who use booking offices have had a negative experience. However for most people, a visit to the booking office is only because the relevant fare e.g. an excess fare, day rover, ranger etc is not available online. That needs to change. Furthermore, such 'complex' queries are not consistently dealt with effectively by ticket offices, which is not acceptable. That doesn't mean the "majority" of experiences are negative.
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I don't think @Krokodil is reading what has actually been posted and is addressing what they think a particular post is saying, rather than what is actually being said.
Yep. I don't want to be forced to use a booking office. If I'm staying at my parents' I want to buy an e-ticket while I'm walking to the station, or even better just to tap my phone and tap off at the other end. And I want to be able to buy an e-ticket to go there, too.
Then please explain what you mean by this remark, particularly in view of your use of italics which conveys the impression to me that you think the PP's experience of consistently good customer service in a variety of locations is very unusual:
Then please explain what you mean by this remark, particularly in view of your use of italics which conveys the impression to me that you think the PP's experience of consistently good customer service in a variety of locations is very unusual:
For someone to have a lot of queries at various ticket offices and to never be refused the sale of excess fares and other such queries would be highly unusual!
If we are talking about someone who uses a ticket office for simple transactions of the sort which most people do online these days, then I would be a lot less surprised, but that's not a high bar, and even fairly straightforward requests can be denied far more commonly than should be the case.
Reports come in from all over the country; I have been made aware of many of them through this forum (do you read such threads?), it's not "just reglect repeated reports of a few bad eggs" (whatever that means).
Furthermore, I become aware of other disputes through other means, not posted here; for example if someone purchases a ticket from the forum's ticket site and has cause to visit the ticket office e.g. to get an excess fare issued, or to seek advice in the event of disruption or be sent there from a gateline assistant, etc.
That is lucky as ticket offices are not obliged to offer this. Can you elaborate on what the journey was? I suspect not many ticket offices would offer this!
I did not ask for three singles, I just said I wanted to go from here to B in the morning then from B to C in the afternoon then back from C to here so what ticket or tickets should I buy to do this. If the ticket office has to offer the best value ticket or tickets for the travel to be undertaken then a return to a destination between B and C that is valid via both B and C would be the best value ticket. It was one return ticket valid for the journeys made, not a split ticket. If I made the same journeys again I could buy the same return ticket on the TVM, it was the information that this ticket was valid for the travel to be undertaken that was important.
There's an amusing poster up at East Croydon stating that they're changing ticket hours from 00:01 - 23:59 to 00:00 - 23:59. Clearly no-one checked the results of this mail merge before blindly putting the poster up. I'm sure we'll appreciate the extra minute of opening hours a day.
I did not ask for three singles, I just said I wanted to go from here to B in the morning then from B to C in the afternoon then back from C to here so what ticket or tickets should I buy to do this. If the ticket office has to offer the best value ticket or tickets for the travel to be undertaken then a return to a destination between B and C that is valid via both B and C would be the best value ticket. It was one return ticket valid for the journeys made, not a split ticket. If I made the same journeys again I could buy the same return ticket on the TVM, it was the information that this ticket was valid for the travel to be undertaken that was important.
6-30 THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION
(1) The general rule
(d) Operators must accurately Sell to Purchasers the Fares appropriate for the journey described by the Purchasers.
(2) Specific requirements
(c) If more than one Fare is suitable, the Operator must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.
This rule does not specify that the journey described must be a point to point single or return journey. The wording does not exclude a triangular journey. The journey described by the purchaser was origin station to B for an event, then B to C for another event, then C back to origin station. The off peak day return to the destination on the ticket was valid from the origin station to the destination station on the ticket both via station B and via station C and the conditions of the ticket allow a break of journey on both the outward and return parts of the return ticket. This off peak day return ticket was also a lower fare than three single tickets which were the only alternative valid tickets for the journey described. This off peak day return ticket was therefore the appropriate ticket for the journey described and 2(c) makes clear that the purchaser must be made aware of this ticket. When I buy a ticket for a return journey at the ticket office they always ask return date and time so they offer the lowest fare ticket for the journey. They would not offer a more expensive anytime return ticket if my travel was at times when the off peak return ticket is valid.
