Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[CyrusWuff]

I seem to recall that there was a time not long ago when portable ticket machines printed proper CCST's. They should do that now

Yup. Avantix Mobile could use both SPORTIS rolls and CCST (though not at the same time!) The latter was fan-folded and in packs of 250 (as opposed to 500 for standard "hopper" stock.)

Current portable machines need separate printers for paper roll tickets and CCST, with the CCST printer having an even lower capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Yup. Avantix Mobile could use both SPORTIS rolls and CCST (though not at the same time!) The latter was fan-folded and in packs of 250 (as opposed to 500 for standard "hopper" stock.)

Current portable machines need separate printers for paper roll tickets and CCST, with the CCST printer having an even lower capacity.

Yes, those old machines were much better.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, those old machines were much better.

I wish the paper roll tickets were laid out better but I far prefer to work with them compared to CCST. You could spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to sort out ticket jams with both Avantix and our successor printers. I don't think I've had a single jam yet with PRT.

 

[yorksrob]

I wish the paper roll tickets were laid out better but I far prefer to work with them compared to CCST. You could spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to sort out ticket jams with both Avantix and our successor printers. I don't think I've had a single jam yet with PRT.

That's a fair point, but as a passenger, I find the CCST format so much better and more convenient !

 

[NeilCr]

A sort of relevant article about the difficulties blind people face when travelling
The opening story is “interesting”

‘I cried with anger’: the trials and torment when travelling with blindness

‘Help’ ranges from being accused of faking it to being offered a wheelchair. That’s why society needs to be educated about the nuances of sight loss.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Krokodil]

That's a fair point, but as a passenger, I find the CCST format so much better and more convenient !

Enjoy it while it lasts, it's on the way out. Even some TVMs are issuing PRTs now.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Over 315,000 responses so far to rail ticket office closure plans

MORE than 315,000 people have so far responded to a public consultation over plans to close many railway station ticket offices – including…

www.keighleynews.co.uk

 

[The exile]

Once you get used to it its much the best way.

It’s the way you have decided is the best for you - which is a very different thing. Just don’t impose it on those who have decided otherwise.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please start a new thread.

thanks

 

[michael8]

Something I just thought of. Closing ticket offices and having the staff on the platform may lead to a decline in customer service levels and professionalism. A ticket clerk sat comfortably at his/her desk, with access to computer, fans/AC, drink facilities, with an orderly queue waiting their turn to speak to him/her, support of colleagues nearby for advice, etc. will surely be in a much better position to offer polite and reasonable service, as opposed to a harangued stressed isolated member of staff on the platform surrounded by passengers. There is also the question of accountability. In the ticket office, there is "passive surveillance" of the staff member's attitude and demeanour by colleagues and supervisors. On the platform, the staff member could get away with being rude or dismissive to passengers. The reverse is also true - passengers are being watched for their behaviour by other people in the queue and are less likely to be rude - if the staff member is isolated on the platform or by the TVMs, a passenger could be rude to them without being overheard.

 

[yorkie]

Something I just thought of. Closing ticket offices and having the staff on the platform may lead to a decline in customer service levels and professionalism. A ticket clerk sat comfortably at his/her desk, with access to computer, fans/AC, drink facilities, with an orderly queue waiting their turn to speak to him/her, support of colleagues nearby for advice, etc. will surely be in a much better position to offer polite and reasonable service,...

This doesn't sound like Sheffield ticket office.

as opposed to a harangued stressed isolated member of staff on the platform surrounded by passengers. There is also the question of accountability. In the ticket office, there is "passive surveillance" of the staff member's attitude and demeanour by colleagues and supervisors.

If only that led to consistently good outcomes for passengers!

On the platform, the staff member could get away with being rude or dismissive to passengers. The reverse is also true - passengers are being watched for their behaviour by other people in the queue and are less likely to be rude - if the staff member is isolated on the platform or by the TVMs, a passenger could be rude to them without being overheard.

Is there evidence of increased levels of rudeness at stations which are already operated in this manner e.g Cambridge North?

 

[plugwash]

One question that springs to mind with a switch to "roving" staff is what kind of equipment will they have access to and how will they access it.

The avanti posters at Picadilly claim they will continue to offer they same services they do today, but unless there is something st least vaugely resemling a ticket officeI just don't see how this is practical. For standard tickets it's fine, but how will they handle tickets that require special stock? or issuing railcards? or issuing photocards to season ticket buyers who don't yet have one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One question that springs to mind with a switch to "roving" staff is what kind of equipment will they have access to and how will they access it.

The avanti posters at Picadilly claim they will continue to offer they same services they do today, but I just don't see how this is practical. For standard tickets it's fine, but how will they handle tickets that require special stock? or issuing railcards? or issuing photocards to season ticket buyers who don't yet have one?

Railcards and season ticket photocards are certainly a "sticking point" in all this, though I suppose they could have access to a cupboard to get them, and it would be possible for the TOCs to agree to switch to issuing Railcards on orange stock (there used to be lots of dedicated stock, now there's hardly any).

However my suspicion is that what we'll actually see is these things being available only online and by phone for delivery, and that seasons will move even further towards being smartcard only.

 

[plugwash]

Personally i'm more wondering about the TFGM county card. When bought at a rail station it's currently issued on special CCST. I'm not sure how it's issued if you buy it from a TFGM travelshop.

I presume it, or a successor product, will eventually move to smartcard, but it seems that TFGM/bee network are more focussed on busses and metrolink than on rail at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally i'm more wondering about the TFGM county card. When bought at a rail station it's currently issued on special CCST. I'm not sure how it's issued if you buy it from a TFGM travelshop.

I presume it, or a successor product, will eventually move to smartcard, but it seems that TFGM/bee network are more focussed on busses and metrolink than on rail at the moment.

It is at the moment but there's no reason it has to be.

 

[plugwash]

Sure, if there was joined up thinking then it would already be on ITSO by now. I suspect said joined up thinking may arrive if/when TFGM gets more involved with rail services, but that is still years away, if it ever happens.

But in the absense of said joined up thinking I can see several possible outcomes.

1. It becomes available only at the handful of places that have actual ticket offices (oxford road seems to be retaining one, albiet with reduced hours).
2. You can buy it, but it gets issued on bog-roll stock, which I really can't see lasting a year.
3. You can buy it, but it requires the member of staff to go off to a back office, which they are relunctant to do.

Most of these represent a major downgrade compared to the current situtation.

As I say I just don't see how the promises on Avanti's posters of retaining the current services while doing away with a ticket office are feasible, which makes me suspect they are lies

 

[Spamcan81]

This doesn't sound like Sheffield ticket office.

If only that led to consistently good outcomes for passengers!

Is there evidence of increased levels of rudeness at stations which are already operated in this manner e.g Cambridge North?

Sounds very much like my local ticket office though. Very helpful and always more people using a human interface than the TVMs - at least when I visit anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds very much like my local ticket office though. Very helpful and always more people using a human interface than the TVMs - at least when I visit anyway.

They vary massively. Merseyrail ones seem some of the most useless, though there are exceptions. "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat!"

 

[Spamcan81]

They vary massively. Merseyrail ones seem some of the most useless, though there are exceptions. "Yer'll af'ter go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat!"

On all my rail travels this year, I've yet to get poor service from a booking office. Some clerks have been more chatty than others but they've always been helpful and professional.

 

[yorkie]

Sounds very much like my local ticket office though.

On all my rail travels this year, I've yet to get poor service from a booking office. Some clerks have been more chatty than others but they've always been helpful and professional.

That is surprising; you must be very lucky as we have many reports of poor service at ticket offices; I don't like to be refused valid sales so I am glad I rarely have to use them. The products which need to be online include excess fares and all Day Rovers/Rangers and then I can avoid poor service permanently.

There really is no good excuse not to allow everything online these days, which is what the majority of people want.

 

[Spamcan81]

That is surprising; you must be very lucky as we have many reports of poor service at ticket offices; I don't like to be refused valid sales so I am glad I rarely have to use them. The products which need to be online include excess fares and all Day Rovers/Rangers and then I can avoid poor service permanently.

There really is no good excuse not to allow everything online these days, which is what the majority of people want.

I don't find it surprising at all. I think it's you that's being unlucky rather than me being lucky. And yet again you seem oblivious to the problem of Digital exclusion of certain sectors of society. https://ukparliament.shorthandstories.com/digital-exclusion-comms-digital-lords-report/

Note : I've tried to cut and paste the body of the link as per forum rules but the forum software won't accept it for some reason

 

[yorkie]

I don't find it surprising at all.

It is, because I'm aware of many other people who have had issues.

I think it's you that's being unlucky rather than me being lucky.

As I said, I rarely need to use ticket offices these days. We have many reports of issues on this forum and I also regularly become aware of issues not reported on the forum too.

And yet again you seem oblivious to the problem of Digital exclusion of certain sectors of society. https://ukparliament.shorthandstories.com/digital-exclusion-comms-digital-lords-report/.

That's your opinion of what you think I am thinking.

Note : I've tried to cut and paste the body of the link as per forum rules but the forum software won't accept it for some reason

Try using a different device/browser. In any case I don't see how it would refute anything I've said?

 

[Spamcan81]

It is, because I'm aware of many other people who have had issues.

As I said, I rarely need to use ticket offices these days. We have many reports of issues on this forum and I also regularly become aware of issues not reported on the forum too.

That's your opinion of what you think I am thinking.

Try using a different device/browser. In any case I don't see how it would refute anything I've said?

Since your mind is closed on the matter, I doubt even the most powerful evidence would change your mind. Like so many people, you display an "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

 

[yorkie]

Since your mind is closed on the matter, I

You appear to be a mind-reader?

doubt even the most powerful evidence would change your mind.

I'm the one basing evidence on experiences of a range of people; you appear to be just going by what you experience yourself?

Like so many people, you display an "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

I don't see how expressing concern at how others have been treated is displaying such an attitude, but you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions.

I maintain that people have been, and continue to be mistreated, mis-sold and refused valid sales at ticket offices on a regular basis; the sooner all products are available online, the better. It's crazy that RDG have not already done this, before making these proposals.

 

[NeilCr]

I guess there is also the difference between the "specialists" on a forum like this and your average punter who is - in most cases - wanting a pretty straightforward ticket. I and a lot of my friends use trains (veterans with senior railcards) and I haven't heard anyone complaint about them

But we are just normally buying from A to B. I think they have a real value in providing information to those less knowledgable about the rail and ticketing system. As it happens I was standing by the ticket office at Ramsgate yesterday waiting for a friend.

There was a family with a query (from what I could hear - the father was quite loud) about trips to London, when they could come back, could they return separately, etc. The queue were getting restless (been there myself) but the clerk was patient and friendly from what I could tell

The father boomed a massive "thank you" anyway!

 

[Huntergreed]

I guess there is also the difference between the "specialists" on a forum like this and your average punter who is - in most cases - wanting a pretty straightforward ticket. I and a lot of my friends use trains (veterans with senior railcards) and I haven't heard anyone complaint about them

Even if this is the case, ticket office staff should not be denying passengers the ability to buy perfectly valid, if a little unusual, tickets.

It is surprising that there is a significant proportion of ticket office staff across the industry who show less understanding of ticket validity/routeing (considering this is the primary purpose of their role) compared to those on this forum who receive little to no official training on ticketing.

But we are just normally buying from A to B. I think they have a real value in providing information to those less knowledgable about the rail and ticketing system.

I would agree IF this was always the case. It seems often to be the case that staff will not understand any of the more complex aspects of routeing/fares (indeed I've come across multiple instances where ticket office staff didn't even have knowledge of how to use the routeing guide!)

As it happens I was standing by the ticket office at Ramsgate yesterday waiting for a friend.

There was a family with a query (from what I could hear - the father was quite loud) about trips to London, when they could come back, could they return separately, etc. The queue were getting restless (been there myself) but the clerk was patient and friendly from what I could tell

The father boomed a massive "thank you" anyway!

This sounds considerably more helpful than my local ticket office.

Indeed, anytime I have a ticket I want to buy/collect rather than a query about a ticket/routeing, the normal response I get from the ticket office staff is 'use the machine on the platform'.

In an ideal world, all ticket office staff would have a full understanding of ticketing and routeing and conduct themselves in a polite and professional manner.

I have no doubt that a significant number of staff do this, but there does seem to be a high proportion of staff who do not act in this way. Searching on this forum, it doesn't take long to find an example of a situation where someone has:

- Been denied the sale of a perfectly valid ticket.
- Been told they are permitted to board a train without a ticket, where this risks an awkward encounter with revenue protection staff which could lead to the passenger receiving a penalty fare/being reported for prosecution.
- Been given incorrect information regarding routeing/validity
- Been treated in a less than professional manner which would not be permitted in many other industries.
- Not been quoted the cheapest price for their journey due to ticket offices not considering split ticketing.

 

[yorkie]

I guess there is also the difference between the "specialists" on a forum like this and your average punter who is - in most cases - wanting a pretty straightforward ticket. I and a lot of my friends use trains (veterans with senior railcards) and I haven't heard anyone complaint about them

Yes many people prefer to buy online but some less straightforward purchases are not (yet?) available online, but such purchases can be refused by staff, for a example excess fares.

The average person may not even realise excess fares exist, for example.

But we are just normally buying from A to B. I think they have a real value in providing information to those less knowledgable about the rail and ticketing system....

Sadly the level of knowledge is not as consistently as good as it should be.

It's good to hear good experiences but i also get to hear of bad experiences on a regular basis. If more products were available online, this would reduce the problems.

Many people prefer to buy online these days, so only use ticket offices for those products which are not yet available online (which should be; it's 2023 for goodness sake!)

 

[NeilCr]

Even if this is the case, ticket office staff should not be denying passengers the ability to buy perfectly valid, if a little unusual, tickets.

It is surprising that there is a significant proportion of ticket office staff across the industry who show less understanding of ticket validity/routeing (considering this is the primary purpose of their role) compared to those on this forum who receive little to no official training on ticketing.



I would agree IF this was always the case. It seems often to be the case that staff will not understand any of the more complex aspects of routeing/fares (indeed I've come across multiple instances where ticket office staff didn't even have knowledge of how to use the routeing guide!)



This sounds considerably more helpful than my local ticket office.

Indeed, anytime I have a ticket I want to buy/collect rather than a query about a ticket/routeing, the normal response I get from the ticket office staff is 'use the machine on the platform'.

In an ideal world, all ticket office staff would have a full understanding of ticketing and routeing and conduct themselves in a polite and professional manner.

I have no doubt that a significant number of staff do this, but there does seem to be a high proportion of staff who do not act in this way. Searching on this forum, it doesn't take long to find an example of a situation where someone has:

- Been denied the sale of a perfectly valid ticket.
- Been told they are permitted to board a train without a ticket, where this risks an awkward encounter with revenue protection staff which could lead to the passenger receiving a penalty fare/being reported for prosecution.
- Being given incorrect information regarding routeing/validity
- Being treated in a less than professional manner which would not be permitted in many other industries.
- Not being quoted the cheapest price for their journey due to ticket offices not considering split ticketing.

And we are back on our own experiences as we've discussed elsewhere. As ever - you will get good and bad - and yes in an ideal world all ticket office staff would be completely on top of everything. But it's not an ideal world..

I think this forum might present a slightly skewed view of the subject. Not for any negative reason - but because of the breath of knowledge and interest in the railway industry by the members here. Most of the time I am in awe - to be honest - as a simple ticket buyer - of just what people here know. Well out of my depth.

In general it is also the case that folks tend to complain more about bad service than they do praise good.

 

[Huntergreed]

And we are back on our own experiences as we've discussed elsewhere. As ever - you will get good and bad - and yes in an ideal world all ticket office staff would be completely on top of everything. But it's not an ideal world..

Other than “good service”, the main arguments for keeping ticket offices open seem to be:

- A lack of availability of products (such as rangers and rovers) elsewhere. This could be fixed very quickly if the RDG got with the times and actually bothered to offer these online. They can also be purchased from Northern TVM’s so offering these from all other TVM’s shouldn’t be an issue.

- A lack of advice/guidance for routing and validity being available. Provided there are still staff to assist with station operational duties and to supervise TVM’s/ticket barriers (which there would be under these proposals), this shouldn’t be an issue.

I think this forum might present a slightly skewed view of the subject. Not for any negative reason - but because of the breath of knowledge and interest in the railway industry by the members here. Most of the time I am in awe - to be honest - as a simple ticket buyer - of just what people here know. Well out of my depth.

There is a good level of knowledge on this forum.

This should not however provide a justification for the lack of knowledge/understanding regarding validity/routing often displayed by a significant number of ticket office staff.

If a member of ticket office staff is unsure about the validity of a certain ticket, that ticket should always be sold and the passenger can use the ticket as they intend to (and if there are any validity issues, these can be addressed when the passenger chooses to use said ticket).

Unfortunately this does not happen in practice and perfectly valid tickets are refused sale by ticket offices on a very regular basis.

In general it is also the case that folks tend to complain more about bad service than they do praise good.

That is true, and is a typical example of negativity bias.

That said, I certainly don’t see how any of the above argument constitute a solid reason why it is operationally or economically sensible to keep ticket offices open at the present time.

 

[yorkie]

And we are back on our own experiences as we've discussed elsewhere. As ever - you will get good and bad - and yes in an ideal world all ticket office staff would be completely on top of everything. But it's not an ideal world..

I think this forum might present a slightly skewed view of the subject. Not for any negative reason - but because of the breath of knowledge and interest in the railway industry by the members here. Most of the time I am in awe - to be honest - as a simple ticket buyer - of just what people here know. Well out of my depth.

In general it is also the case that folks tend to complain more about bad service than they do praise good.

Bear in mind some of us work in (or closely with people who are ) in a capacity where we become aware of people who have been incorrectly refused travel/sales, in addition to those matters which get posted here. We are only aware of the tip of the iceberg but it has been brought to my attention on many occasions that ticket office staff have erroneously climes valid tickets are invalid.

If my experiences were purely as a passenger, I wouldn't be aware of those matters.