Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Bletchleyite]

Let's hope nothing ever happens to you then where you find yourself very unexpectedly injured or ill for more than a couple of days/weeks and you're suddenly out of a job.

That's the responsibility of the welfare state, but not of the railway.

 

[lrailadventure]

There will be no reduction in the staffing hours of the stations I mentioned.

I specifically chose stations where there were reductions in ticket office / journey maker / customer assistant / whatever the new roles are called staffing hours.

There may well be other staff such as dispatchers are these stations.. but they're typically quite busy with their safety critical jobs, such as dispatching trains, to be answering general enquiries and selling tickets...

 

[tomuk]

There may well be other staff such as dispatchers are these stations.. but they're typically quite busy with their safety critical jobs, such as dispatching trains, to be answering general enquiries and selling tickets...

That is complete nonsense. At lots of larger stations like Temple Meads there are are plenty of non ticket office involved in customer liaison these may include some train dispatch and manning the ticket barriers but they are there providing customer assistance and information too.

 

[Railwaycat]

Bletchley's heated entrance/waiting area is open 24/7 regardless of staff presence (though the toilets aren't, they are left open during the day again regardless of staff presence in the booking office). Plenty of public toilets outside of the railway are open and unstaffed. Thus there is no reason why either of these things need to be the case other than rampant conservatism (or specific antisocial behaviour issues at specific stations, perhaps best dealt with by cheaper security guards).

So what's this then?

Bletchley Station | National Rail

Discover Bletchley railway station. Getting to & from, buying & collecting train tickets, staffing, facilities, accessibility, & mobility access.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Do you actually live in the real world? Seems like you need to find out what's going off in your own area before commenting on the situation in others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what's this then?

Bletchley Station | National Rail

Discover Bletchley railway station. Getting to & from, buying & collecting train tickets, staffing, facilities, accessibility, & mobility access.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Can you perhaps explain exactly what you are referring to?

If you mean this:

In the interest of public wellbeing, the waiting room facilities at Bletchley station will be closed until further notice. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause to your journey.

I believe it refers to the waiting room on platforms 4/5, which was closed for some reason I forget to do with the building itself.

The entrance hall of the station is heated, has a few seats and is open 24/7, because there is no other way into the station.

Or do you mean this?

The toilet facilities are not available when the Ticket Office is closed.

Which isn't true. The toilets are open during the publicised booking office hours, but the booking office is not usually open during the full published hours, they have for a while been having some difficulties staffing it. It's almost never open in the evening. Not the first time NRE doesn't agree with reality. I suspect there's some sort of agreement with the adjacent traincrew depot to lock and unlock the toilets at the specified times even if the booking office is closed.

 

[jon0844]

Can you perhaps explain exactly what you are referring to?

Probably the bit that says "The toilet facilities are not available when the Ticket Office is closed."

Maybe they're sometimes left open, but presumably that isn't what is supposed to happen and could change at any time and without notice.

And many waiting areas no longer have heating as that's expensive, and at best might have a button to activate a small fan heater for 10 minutes or so before needing to be pressed again. Okay if you stand under it, but not enough to keep a room warm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably the bit that says "The toilet facilities are not available when the Ticket Office is closed."

Maybe they're sometimes left open, but presumably that isn't what is supposed to happen and could change at any time and without notice.

I suspect there's some sort of agreement with the adjacent traincrew depot to lock and unlock them at the specified time.

But that aside, public toilets that aren't in stations (e.g. those in car parks) are typically not staffed, thus there's no reason public toilets in stations have to be staffed.

And many waiting areas no longer have heating as that's expensive, and at best might have a button to activate a small fan heater for 10 minutes or so before needing to be pressed again. Okay if you stand under it, but not enough to keep a room warm.

It's a proper building, not a shelter. They could I suppose demolish it, but otherwise it has to be open because there's no other access to the station nor is there an obvious place for a side gate due to the layout.

 

[jon0844]

Not saying it will be closed, just not heated (clearly not an issue right now!).

 

[Silenos]

That is complete nonsense. At lots of larger stations like Temple Meads there are are plenty of non ticket office involved in customer liaison these may include some train dispatch and manning the ticket barriers but they are there providing customer assistance and information too.

In fact, you sort of wonder why? If destaffing smaller stations doesn’t have any significant impact on the number of journeys, and if customers are well able to sort out tickets on their phones or from TVMs, then doesn’t the same apply at larger stations too? Is there really a need for customer-facing staff at larger stations if that’s the case? The same app you use for ticketing will tell you what platform to go to, and inform you of any delays (as will the information screens and announcements once you actually get to the station).

The potential cost savings from staff reductions are presumably much larger at these larger stations.

 

[Railwaycat]

Can you perhaps explain exactly what you are referring to?

If you mean this:



I believe it refers to the waiting room on platforms 4/5, which was closed for some reason I forget to do with the building itself.

The entrance hall of the station is heated, has a few seats and is open 24/7, because there is no other way into the station.

Or do you mean this?



Which isn't true. The toilets are open during the publicised booking office hours, but the booking office is not usually open during the full published hours, they have for a while been having some difficulties staffing it. It's almost never open in the evening. Not the first time NRE doesn't agree with reality. I suspect there's some sort of agreement with the adjacent traincrew depot to lock and unlock the toilets at the specified times even if the booking office is closed.

The adjacent train crew depot...so there's actually someone about 24/7 to deter anti social behaviour. Unlike many of the stations proposed for destaffing.

 

[tomuk]

In fact, you sort of wonder why? If destaffing smaller stations doesn’t have any significant impact on the number of journeys, and if customers are well able to sort out tickets on their phones or from TVMs, then doesn’t the same apply at larger stations too? Is there really a need for customer-facing staff at larger stations if that’s the case? The same app you use for ticketing will tell you what platform to go to, and inform you of any delays (as will the information screens and announcements once you actually get to the station).

The potential cost savings from staff reductions are presumably much larger at these larger stations.

Again you seem to be mixing up ticket office staff with other general station staff.

In terms of ticket office staff\offices it is quite likely, as Avanti have chosen, that due to the general uptake of online and advance fares that large stations served by long distance operators do actually require less ticket office staff.

 

[HSTEd]

Merseyrail obtains its heavy staffing level through one of the highest levels of net subsidy on the railway. Despite an largely urban railway that should be relatively high traffic density and thus low subsidy.

In 2018-2019, the last year for which the very illuminating net subsidy graph was published (and I wonder why it was eliminated.....), Merseyrail did appallingly badly at 19.4p/passenger km.

It was beaten only by Northern (29.5p), Transport For Wales (29.2p) and Scotrail (21.4p)

It managed to consume more subsidy per passenger km than the Caledonian Sleeper, which is saying something!

 

[Silenos]

Again you seem to be mixing up ticket office staff with other general station staff.

In terms of ticket office staff\offices it is quite likely, as Avanti have chosen, that due to the general uptake of online and advance fares that large stations served by long distance operators do actually require less ticket office staff.

I am not mixing up anything. Several posters on this thread have pointed out that many small stations only have a single member of staff, who as well as ticket office duties carries out other customer-facing and customer-supporting roles.

The argument has been made, by those who favour the closure of ticket offices that the loss of staffing on these stations is unlikely to have a significant impact on journeys made, and that the minor inconvenience to passengers is mitigated by passenger access to online or centralised information sources, and in any case is greatly outweighed by the reduction in costs.

If passengers on smaller stations can cope without access to staff, so, presumably, can those at larger stations and termini. And the savings in staff costs are very much greater.

 

[HSTEd]

If passengers on smaller stations can cope without access to staff, so, presumably, can those at larger stations and termini. And the savings in staff costs are very much greater.

However, because staff cannot be infinitely subdivided (you can't staff a station with 0.1 staff members), larger stations will be more able to justify staff because there will be more worthwhile jobs for them to do.

 

[Silenos]

However, because staff cannot be infinitely subdivided (you can't staff a station with 0.1 staff members), larger stations will be more able to justify staff because there will be more worthwhile jobs for them to do.

Sure, but the key is in that word ‘worthwhile’. We seem to have established that in the view of many, face-to-face customer liaison is not cost-effective.

 

[12LDA28C]

But that aside, public toilets that aren't in stations (e.g. those in car parks) are typically not staffed, thus there's no reason public toilets in stations have to be staffed.

If you've ever had the misfortune to use public toilets that are not supervised or staffed (such as those in car parks you mention) you'll be aware that they are frequently dirty, soiled, graffitied, contaminated by various drug users' paraphernalia and often not remotely fit for purpose. In essence, only just the favoured option if you're literally just about to sh*t yourself but nothing more than that. Certainly not what I'd want to see at a railway station.

 

[weeklycommuter]

How far will the Mayor of Liverpool and Manchester get with the proposed legal action against the closure of ticket offices?

Appears to be based on Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005

Labour mayors to take legal action over train ticket office closures in England

Five metro mayors launch challenge to plans, saying ‘rushed’ public consultation not following due process

www.theguardian.com

Along with Tracy Brabin, the mayor of West Yorkshire, Steve Rotheram of Liverpool city region, Oliver Coppard of South Yorkshire, and Nik Johnson of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, Burnham will send a pre-action protocol letter to operators, setting out their legal challenge.
Burnham said the “rushed” consultation “should be declared null and void”, adding: “Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005 sets out a very clear and detailed process which must be followed if a train operating company proposes to close a station or any part of a station. That process has simply not been followed in this instance. It requires a 12-week consultation.”
However I cannot see how Transport Focus can give the go ahead anyway while some tickets and services are only available at ticket offices.

 

[WAB]

I specifically chose stations where there were reductions in ticket office / journey maker / customer assistant / whatever the new roles are called staffing hours.

There may well be other staff such as dispatchers are these stations.. but they're typically quite busy with their safety critical jobs, such as dispatching trains, to be answering general enquiries and selling tickets...

These stations have CSAs, gateline attendants, dispatchers, supervisors, DSMs, etc. even late at night. There will always be staff available for customer service.

 

[Whistler40145]

Appears to be based on Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005

Labour mayors to take legal action over train ticket office closures in England

Five metro mayors launch challenge to plans, saying ‘rushed’ public consultation not following due process

www.theguardian.com

Along with Tracy Brabin, the mayor of West Yorkshire, Steve Rotheram of Liverpool city region, Oliver Coppard of South Yorkshire, and Nik Johnson of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, Burnham will send a pre-action protocol letter to operators, setting out their legal challenge.
Burnham said the “rushed” consultation “should be declared null and void”, adding: “Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005 sets out a very clear and detailed process which must be followed if a train operating company proposes to close a station or any part of a station. That process has simply not been followed in this instance. It requires a 12-week consultation.”
However I cannot see how Transport Focus can give the go ahead anyway while some tickets and services are only available at ticket offices.

It does seem to have a bit of a nasty whiff being pushed through so quickly

Further to you're response, I'm pretty sure some tickets aren't even available through a ticket machine on a train, let alone a TVM

 

[lrailadventure]

In fact, you sort of wonder why? If destaffing smaller stations doesn’t have any significant impact on the number of journeys

You're use of significant implies that there is at least some impact, even minor, on the usage of smaller stations...

Just because something works at a smaller station (although it doesn't and many people I know won't used unstaffed stations when it is dark due to safety concerns), doesn't mean it will work at a large station. Large stations typically attract a lot more tourists and leisure travellers than the smaller stations which are generally just used by regular commuters, do you expect them all to just use an unfamiliar and often over complicated app to work it out for themselves or what, guess where they're supposed to be going or what ticket they're supposed to be buying? If so.. you need to join the real world and realise how valuable the ticket office staff are.

The same app you use for ticketing will tell you what platform to go to, and inform you of any delays (as will the information screens and announcements once you actually get to the station).

You mean the apps that are unreliable, don't always work correctly, can't always provide real-time information, don't always sell the cheapest tickets available and rely on having a stable internet connection?

The potential cost savings from staff reductions are presumably much larger at these larger stations.

Sometimes you have to have actual human people doing a job. Not everything can be done by a machine, and this is from someone studying a robotics and artificial intelligence degree - even machines have their limitations. They cannot and should not be used for everything. Certain things, like customer service and the railway benefit alot more from having human input than having to use technology which isn't anywhere near the standard where it need to be

 

[Silenos]

You're use of significant implies that there is at least some impact, even minor, on the usage of smaller stations...

Just because something works at a smaller station (although it doesn't and many people I know won't used unstaffed stations when it is dark due to safety concerns), doesn't mean it will work at a large station. Large stations typically attract a lot more tourists and leisure travellers than the smaller stations which are generally just used by regular commuters, do you expect them all to just use an unfamiliar and often over complicated app to work it out for themselves or what, guess where they're supposed to be going or what ticket they're supposed to be buying? If so.. you need to join the real world and realise how valuable the ticket office staff are.



You mean the apps that are unreliable, don't always work correctly, can't always provide real-time information, don't always sell the cheapest tickets available and rely on having a stable internet connection?



Sometimes you have to have actual human people doing a job. Not everything can be done by a machine, and this is from someone studying a robotics and artificial intelligence degree - even machines have their limitations. They cannot and should not be used for everything. Certain things, like customer service and the railway benefit alot more from having human input than having to use technology which isn't anywhere near the standard where it need to be

I have no data on the impact of destaffing on usage. However, some eminent posters have asserted that it doesn’t matter if there are no staff on smaller stations, because travellers (even those with a disability) are capable of working out any information needed either from online sources or from a centralised service accessed via a help point button or TVM. And further, that even if a percentage of travellers are inconvenienced or put off, this is outweighed by the benefits of the saved staffing costs.

Since the UK has recent experience of the effects of not fully exploring the consequences of logical arguments, it seems important to me to explore where these arguments ultimately lead. The arguments applied to smaller stations can be applied just as easily to larger ones. Leisure travellers are rarely doing so spontaneously and have ample opportunities to research information online; furthermore, while I have no evidence, I would be unsurprised if the total number of leisure journeys starting from smaller stations wasn’t as large as the number starting from mainline termini and major stations. And it is not clear that UK taxpayers would want to pay a premium merely to support tourists. So sauce for the small goose might very well be sauce for the major gander

 

[tomuk]

Appears to be based on Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005

Labour mayors to take legal action over train ticket office closures in England

Five metro mayors launch challenge to plans, saying ‘rushed’ public consultation not following due process

www.theguardian.com

Along with Tracy Brabin, the mayor of West Yorkshire, Steve Rotheram of Liverpool city region, Oliver Coppard of South Yorkshire, and Nik Johnson of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, Burnham will send a pre-action protocol letter to operators, setting out their legal challenge.
Burnham said the “rushed” consultation “should be declared null and void”, adding: “Section 29 of the Railways Act 2005 sets out a very clear and detailed process which must be followed if a train operating company proposes to close a station or any part of a station. That process has simply not been followed in this instance. It requires a 12-week consultation.”
However I cannot see how Transport Focus can give the go ahead anyway while some tickets and services are only available at ticket offices.

Section 29 of the Act is regarding the closure of a station or part such used for providing a passenger service such as an induvial platform not a ticket office, information office, buffet or other ancillary purpose. The King of the North is talking cobblers but I assume some expensive lawyers have a different opinion.

 

[Railwaycat]

You're use of significant implies that there is at least some impact, even minor, on the usage of smaller stations...

Just because something works at a smaller station (although it doesn't and many people I know won't used unstaffed stations when it is dark due to safety concerns), doesn't mean it will work at a large station. Large stations typically attract a lot more tourists and leisure travellers than the smaller stations which are generally just used by regular commuters, do you expect them all to just use an unfamiliar and often over complicated app to work it out for themselves or what, guess where they're supposed to be going or what ticket they're supposed to be buying? If so.. you need to join the real world and realise how valuable the ticket office staff are.



You mean the apps that are unreliable, don't always work correctly, can't always provide real-time information, don't always sell the cheapest tickets available and rely on having a stable internet connection?



Sometimes you have to have actual human people doing a job. Not everything can be done by a machine, and this is from someone studying a robotics and artificial intelligence degree - even machines have their limitations. They cannot and should not be used for everything. Certain things, like customer service and the railway benefit alot more from having human input than having to use technology which isn't anywhere near the standard where it need to be

He's on our side, just making the point that what's good (not) for one could be applied to another in theory.

 

[HSTEd]

Section 29 of the Act is regarding the closure of a station or part such used for providing a passenger service such as an induvial platform not a ticket office, information office, buffet or other ancillary purpose. The King of the North is talking cobblers but I assume some expensive lawyers have a different opinion.

It's fairly standard for unpopular policies to be attacked with vexatious legal action these days.

Especially with devolved governments using it in a desperate attempt to obtain political favour by attacking central government.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have no data on the impact of destaffing on usage. However, some eminent posters have asserted that it doesn’t matter if there are no staff on smaller stations, because travellers (even those with a disability) are capable of working out any information needed either from online sources or from a centralised service accessed via a help point button or TVM. And further, that even if a percentage of travellers are inconvenienced or put off, this is outweighed by the benefits of the saved staffing costs.

Since the UK has recent experience of the effects of not fully exploring the consequences of logical arguments, it seems important to me to explore where these arguments ultimately lead. The arguments applied to smaller stations can be applied just as easily to larger ones. Leisure travellers are rarely doing so spontaneously and have ample opportunities to research information online; furthermore, while I have no evidence, I would be unsurprised if the total number of leisure journeys starting from smaller stations wasn’t as large as the number starting from mainline termini and major stations. And it is not clear that UK taxpayers would want to pay a premium merely to support tourists. So sauce for the small goose might very well be sauce for the major gander

I disagree about leisure travel not being spontaneous. Annual holidays may be pre-planned, but shopping trips, day trips to the seaside or other leisure activities often depend on the weather being good, and are mostly spontaneous.

 

[Horizon22]

There's multiple other ways at the moment. Which is what this whole issue is about - keeping choice and accessibility for all. We are rapidly losing that in society.

Nobody is planning to remove TVMs, as one example. But ultimately yes probably over time if something is used by less than 1 in 1000 thousand people it becomes redundant; choice is not limitless and regardless of any expense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is planning to remove TVMs, as one example. But ultimately yes probably over time if something is used by less than 1 in 1000 thousand people it becomes redundant; choice is not limitless and regardless of any expense.

Some stations e.g. Euston have reduced the number of TVMs due to low usage because people are booking online, but I'm similarly not aware of any plan for any station that has TVMs to cease having them.

 

[Kite159]

.

Some stations e.g. Euston have reduced the number of TVMs due to low usage because people are booking online, but I'm similarly not aware of any plan for any station that has TVMs to cease having them.

Isn't that more down to Avanti trying to save money when they were 'upgrading' the older style TVMs to their rubbish & barely useable journey planner type?

 

[Jimini]

Nobody is planning to remove TVMs, as one example. But ultimately yes probably over time if something is used by less than 1 in 1000 thousand people it becomes redundant; choice is not limitless and regardless of any expense.

When they "upgraded" the ones at Coventry, they removed (I think) ten TVMs and replaced them with the current three that are in situ now. Bit bizarre!

 

[Horizon22]

When they "upgraded" the ones at Coventry, they removed (I think) ten TVMs and replaced them with the current three that are in situ now. Bit bizarre!

When I say remove I mean complete removal, not a reduction in the numbers.

As I've said a number of times this is a trend only going one way and whilst these plans are going through with a bit too much pace and are not fully considered, the overall idea was also going to be on the cards. If not now then in a year or phased slowly over a number of years.