Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[ainsworth74]

What a silly own goal. As long as the promotional materials aren't offensive or just slagging of the company, staff aren't shoving the petition in people's faces and are doing their jobs then let them get on with it. Rather than hitting morale further.

 

[Richardr]

I'm just going on GWR's own numbers that say 45.5% of ticket sales form Barnstaple are from the ticket office (5.5% being from the TVM and 49% being online - if anything those numbers suggest we keep the ticket office and get rid of the TVM) - https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-...to-Ticket-Retailing-at-Barnstaple-Station.pdf

One additional thing that Barnstable document shows is currently two windows and just one machine. Surely there should be a rule that where ticket offices are closed there should be at least two machines - a single machine can break down, leaving none, but, more likely, it only takes one person "stuck" at the machine, and no one else can use it.

Re banks still having staff, both NatWest / RBS and Barclays for example have shut just under two thirds of their branches in the past five years. There may be (fewer) staff in the remaining branches, but many people are no longer near such a branch.

 

[Starmill]

Aha; a sign of progress being made in that area. This will displace the purists!

Not a great deal of progress, alas. Now those unfairly made to use ToD, or who want any tickets that aren't available from those new machines such as a 7 day season or GM Traincard, or any multi-modal TfGM product, are now forced to queue for a very long time in the single ticket window queue.

Also those machines could quite just issue real etickets to email, like Avanti West Coast ticket offices have done for several years, but for some unknown bizarre reason they issue paper-bound versions. That should be prohibited in my view.

For those who need to pay cash they can't do that at Manchester Airport ticket machines any more either. I've attached a picture taken this afternoon of the typical queue TPE will expect you to wait in for an indeterminate period of time, missing your trains. The station isn't short staffed...

Arguably, it would be better if TPE had just shut the ticket window because then all of the above passengers would be able to just board the train. On weekdays that would likely result in being denied entry through the ticket gates though, and on any day RPIs would likely try to coerce you into paying a Penalty Fare.

I don't see evidence of positive progress for the customer anywhere in this.

 

[Topological]

The Manchester Airport example raises another very good point. Should there be an opportunity for other retailers to sell tickets? Is the ticket office provision at Manchester Airport a sensible use of the Manchester tourist tax?

To me the end of the ticket office as a pure ticket office is inevitable, it would just be nice if there was a better transition plan.

 

[Starmill]

Should there be an opportunity for other retailers to sell tickets?

Third party retailers at stations, such as small shops and cafés, have long been able to offer rail ticket sales. Nothing to stop it here.

Nothing to stop the TOC selling drinks and snacks in the ticket office too if they want to...

 

[tomuk]

Not a great deal of progress, alas. Now those unfairly made to use ToD, or who want any tickets that aren't available from those new machines such as a 7 day season or GM Traincard, or any multi-modal TfGM product, are now forced to queue for a very long time in the single ticket window queue.

Why is it unfair to be made to use ToD? Ticket Office only tickets shouldn't exist.

Also those machines could quite just issue real etickets to email, like Avanti West Coast ticket offices have done for several years, but for some unknown bizarre reason they issue paper-bound versions. That should be prohibited in my view.

Why should they be prohibited from issuing paper tickets? Surely choice should be the imperative not forcing either channel.

For those who need to pay cash they can't do that at Manchester Airport ticket machines any more either. I've attached a picture taken this afternoon of the typical queue TPE will expect you to wait in for an indeterminate period of time, missing your trains. The station isn't short staffed...

There should be cash TVMs at major locations like Manchester Airport.

 

[Topological]

Third party retailers at stations, such as small shops and cafés, have long been able to offer rail ticket sales. Nothing to stop it here.

Nothing to stop the TOC selling drinks and snacks in the ticket office too if they want to...

It does then beg the question why they do not.

I presume the answer lies in the high rents for space on stations that prohibit the retailer and then the economies of scale that larger retailers enjoy preventing the ticket office from venturing into retail.

At larger stations it is not beyond possible to have the Tesco Express / Sainsburys etc offering tickets. Likewise a ticket with the coffee is plausible. A neat SSP tie up might allow the ticket machines to vend coffee as well.

It would be nice to think innovative solutions may emerge for the smaller stations. Perhaps there is a chance of localised incentives to use railway buildings.

My mind is now wandering to a ticket and a curry at Northwich...

 

[BrianW]

It does then beg the question why they do not.

I presume the answer lies in the high rents for space on stations that prohibit the retailer and then the economies of scale that larger retailers enjoy preventing the ticket office from venturing into retail.

At larger stations it is not beyond possible to have the Tesco Express / Sainsburys etc offering tickets. Likewise a ticket with the coffee is plausible. A neat SSP tie up might allow the ticket machines to vend coffee as well.

It would be nice to think innovative solutions may emerge for the smaller stations. Perhaps there is a chance of localised incentives to use railway buildings.

My mind is now wandering to a ticket and a curry at Northwich...

I was wondering about Chester-le-Street as a 'way forward' and found this, online: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/chester-le-street/

Oh well, I remember Mr Portaloo's visit.

 

[Starmill]

It does then beg the question why they do not.

I presume the answer lies in the high rents for space on stations that prohibit the retailer and then the economies of scale that larger retailers enjoy preventing the ticket office from venturing into retail.

At larger stations it is not beyond possible to have the Tesco Express / Sainsburys etc offering tickets. Likewise a ticket with the coffee is plausible. A neat SSP tie up might allow the ticket machines to vend coffee as well.

It would be nice to think innovative solutions may emerge for the smaller stations. Perhaps there is a chance of localised incentives to use railway buildings.

My mind is now wandering to a ticket and a curry at Northwich...

Merseyrail are more than happy to offer a convenience store format with their ticket offices.

 

[yorkie]

Why is it unfair to be made to use ToD? Ticket Office only tickets shouldn't exist.

I think you are conflating two things and misunderstanding the points made.

Why should they be prohibited from issuing paper tickets?

I think the suggestion was actually they should be prohibited from only issuing paper tickets, which is very different to what you are suggesting was said.

Surely choice should be the imperative not forcing either channel.

There should be cash TVMs at major locations like Manchester Airport.

Indeed.

It's disappointing to hear that, although a barcode TVM has been introduced, it's actually fallen short of expectations.

It's also silly to keep just a single ticket window open which creates a huge queue; as stated above it would be better if there was no ticket office (or equivalent) at all, as at least then people can board without penalty!

If TPE (or any other TOC) want people to queue, they need to specify how long people should allow for this. Let's see if they will do that...

 

[urbophile]

Merseyrail are more than happy to offer a convenience store format with their ticket offices.

I suspect that only works because (a) thanks to Merseyrail policy, most customers are buying tickets anyway, and (b) the MtoGo shops sell a very limited range of goods. If they were mini-supermarkets like the usual corner shop, intending travellers would have to queue behind people unloading baskets with bread, tins of soup, bottles etc.

The other way round, if more convenience stores sold rail tickets, would probably work well. But people would do that well in advance of catching their train. Whereas most users of ticket offices, at least for local trains, will join the queue ten minutes or less before their train leaves.

 

[Topological]

Merseyrail are more than happy to offer a convenience store format with their ticket offices.

That is true, perhaps a similar larger operation could operate multiple offices in other areas. TfGM seems like an obvious one for Manchester if they are allowed to take over multiple stations (including the Manchester Airport example)

 

[Krokodil]

The petition nor the following debate if 100,000 signatures is reached have any power over the government to compel them to change tack.

The debate will allow proper scrutiny, more in depth. The government is claiming that no station will become unstaffed (technically true, though no one really thinks that someone turning up once a week to litter pick makes it a staffed station) but a debate will allow MPs to probe answers properly.

Disability rights campaigners are getting their legal act together too, some of them have great track records in court. Then there's the EHRC.

If you review GWRs figures a reasonable conclusion with Barnstaple and other stations is that GWR have taken a more conservative approach to TVMs than elsewhere and if one or more extra TVMs had been installed particularly ones excepting cash the usage of the ticket office window would be correspondingly less. It isn't people don't want to use a TVM it because they can't at GWR stations because the sole TVM is too busy or doesn't take cash.

If destaffing is the eventual end state (and it is, no point denying it) then you can forget TVMs accepting cash. They need regularly emptying to avoid becoming a target.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

Nothing to stop the TOC selling drinks and snacks in the ticket office too if they want to...

The queue at Manchester Airport would be a good reason not to. Fine for quieter stations though.

 

[Starmill]

The queue at Manchester Airport would be a good reason not to. Fine for quieter stations though.

TPE have reduced Manchester Airport and Huddersfield stations permanently to a single window. Hence the bananas queues.

 

[Angmering1974]

Bit in bold - because if you've bothered to read all the posts you'll see Swedish state railways have made exactly this change - in fact if anything they've gone further.

So if in your tinfoil hat world this is only being done to give somebody's "mate" a bung, that presumably means somebody's "mate" benefitted in Sweden or in London when TFL did it. Or perhaps, more logically, but it doesn't support your conspiracy theory, this is the inevitable change as a result in technology driven changes in the way people buy train tickets.....

You’ve completely misinterpreted

All I meant was that if and when there is a mass closure of offices, I believe they won’t just sit around empty waiting for someone to do something with them, that someone already has a plan.

I’m not saying, and did not say, the plan to close the offices is motivated by the ability to rent out the office space.

 

[Krokodil]

TPE have reduced Manchester Airport and Huddersfield stations permanently to a single window. Hence the bananas queues.

It doesn't help that there are usually only two people serving, but it's still an example of an office with too high a footfall for the staff to provide other functions.

Diversification should be the answer for a lot of the quieter single-manned booking offices, particularly those in touristy areas.

 

[WAB]

Indeed. When even those bastions of capitalism, banks and supermarkets haven't completely got rid of their staffed desks/checkouts, it suggests that to do so for railway passengers would be a step too far.

They have in many locations...

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. When even those bastions of capitalism, banks and supermarkets haven't completely got rid of their staffed desks/checkouts, it suggests that to do so for railway passengers would be a step too far.

Sadly there's nothing in law to stop the Tesco and Amazon shops with gates at the entrance. These require a smartphone with their app if you wish to enter, and you must sign up online giving your name, email address and phone number. Otherwise you're not allowed to be a customer at those particular shops.

 

[Skimble19]

Sadly there's nothing in law to stop the Tesco and Amazon shops with gates at the entrance. These require a smartphone with their app if you wish to enter, and you must sign up online giving your name, email address and phone number. Otherwise you're not allowed to be a customer at those particular shops.

The most recent Amazon stores don’t require that. If you want the convenience of simply walking in, picking items up, scanning a QR code and exiting you can do so, but they also have actual tills that you can use if you prefer.

 

[Starmill]

The most recent Amazon stores don’t require that. If you want the convenience of simply walking in, picking items up, scanning a QR code and exiting you can do so, but they also have actual tills that you can use if you prefer.

Well that's one good thing about it I guess.

 

[tomuk]

The debate will allow proper scrutiny, more in depth. The government is claiming that no station will become unstaffed (technically true, though no one really thinks that someone turning up once a week to litter pick makes it a staffed station) but a debate will allow MPs to probe answers properly.

No it won't there has already been at least one debate on the ticket office closures already and the minister just trotted out the prepared lines while the back bench and opposition MPs talked about the issues. Where is this proper scrutiny going to come from as you put it.

If de-staffing is the eventual end state (and it is, no point denying it) then you can forget TVMs accepting cash. They need regularly emptying to avoid becoming a target.

TVMs can't be emptyed by a man in a van or the mobile teams?

 

[Krokodil]

TVMs can't be emptyed by a man in a van or the mobile teams?

For a cost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

No it won't there has already been at least one debate on the ticket office closures already and the minister just trotted out the prepared lines while the back bench and opposition MPs talked about the issues. Where is this proper scrutiny going to come from as you put it.

Well there have already been more headlines as a result of that debate than there were as a result of the non-answer we've got. Even the right-wing papers are going for the government over this.

The court cases will be interesting. The Southeastern Equality Impact Assessment is a whitewash.

 

[Navajo8686]

For me the key question is what are the 12% of tickets currently sold at ticket offices?

If they're all just 'this station to the big town/city' then a TVM should do. If they're all the more complicated, skills/knowledge based tickets then a TVM won't do.

However, that 12% figure could be viewed as fairly meaningless - if, say, 40% of tickets are sold online or from a TVM as there is no current ticket office to buy a ticket from then the 12% figure is actually a substantial proportion of the 60% balance of customers.

There will always be edge cases of individuals who cannot use a particular set of tools or technologies (for whatever reason) but without understanding the size and revenue of that number then I find it odd to think that business decisions can be made. Staffing a ticket office for £120,000 (3 staff plus cover) isnt justified to sell £1000 worth of tickets for example.

 

[tomuk]

The Southeastern Equality Impact Assessment is a whitewash.

From the aforementioned EIA

To begin with, we will focus on 40 ticket offices in our Metro area that sell fewer than 50
tickets daily at the window and where customers are already able to use Pay As You Go
(tap in, tap out) for their journey. Almost half (19 of 40) of these ticket offices sell 10 tickets
or less daily at the window, and a further 16 sell between 11-30 tickets a day.

 

[father_jack]

From the aforementioned EIA

Is that the staff's fault though ?
Clearly a "NEGOTIATED" alternative role would have been on the cards long before Covid given those figures ? Even at 10 times those numbers. But have hands been sat on in managerial circles because less staff means less managers.........

 

[Mark J]

Considering at some TVM's you can't buy the following...

- Plusbus tickets. (If you can on a GWR TVM then it is well hidden).
- Rangers and Rover tickets.
- Tickets starting at another location - needed if you are split ticketing.
- Railcard purchase/renewal.

How will these be handled if ticket offices are closed?

 

[weeklycommuter]

What a silly own goal. As long as the promotional materials aren't offensive or just slagging of the company, staff aren't shoving the petition in people's faces and are doing their jobs then let them get on with it. Rather than hitting morale further.

It is this Government not the train operating companies that wants and is pushing for these ticket office closures so my guess is either that the Government has ordered the TOC to take it down or the TOC cannot allow anything this Government does not want. As the TOCs will probably lose money as the Government/Treasury's intended aim is to cut spending (though this would not necessarily be the result in practice) I would not be surprised if the TOCs had deliberately drawn up the proposals in a way that leads to the greatest possible amount of opposition and formal objections to Transport Focus from voters, especially those groups of voters statistically most likely to have voted for this Government, to cause as much political difficulty as they can for ministers in this Government so the proposals are either watered down or abandoned. Government ministers cannot themselves make the cuts to ticket offices work, they rely on the train operators to do this so if the train operators do not really want to do this it is likely to go badly. These ticket office cuts have been talked about for a long time so train operators have had plenty of time to make the long list of changes that would make it possible to run the railway without ticket offices yet as far as I can see train operators have done nothing to make it possible to get without using a ticket office any of the products (such as photocards), tickets and services than can currently only be obtained by using a ticket office.

 

[The exile]

If TPE (or any other TOC) want people to queue, they need to specify how long people should allow for this. Let's see if they will do that...

Or indeed there should be a wait time / queue length beyond which the ticket office is considered "closed". Would suggest for queue length a total of four - ie 2 between you and the person currently being served.

 

[miami]

Perhaps the cost of ticket offices should be added to the cost of buying them, and likewise for online

So take a current £10 ticket, and reduce it to say £9.50. Add a 20p overhead for buying online, or a £2 overhead for buying in person to fund the cost of the ticket office

Then everyone's happy, those that want to use ticket offices can, and they are self-funding.

 

[The exile]

For me the key question is what are the 12% of tickets currently sold at ticket offices?

If they're all just 'this station to the big town/city' then a TVM should do. If they're all the more complicated, skills/knowledge based tickets then a TVM won't do.

However, that 12% figure could be viewed as fairly meaningless - if, say, 40% of tickets are sold online or from a TVM as there is no current ticket office to buy a ticket from then the 12% figure is actually a substantial proportion of the 60% balance of customers.

There will always be edge cases of individuals who cannot use a particular set of tools or technologies (for whatever reason) but without understanding the size and revenue of that number then I find it odd to think that business decisions can be made. Staffing a ticket office for £120,000 (3 staff plus cover) isnt justified to sell £1000 worth of tickets for example.

The first thing that has to be sorted out is the availability of ALL tickets for ALL TOCs from ALL ticket machines at ALL times (that includes tickets from another station / zonal boundary / not valid at the time of purchase).