Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[weeklycommuter]

Instead of stating that only 12% of ticket sales are made using ticket offices as if that is a great achievement which justifies closing all ticket offices the RDG should ask themselves why in view of all the alternatives including ticket vending machines and online purchase rail passengers still choose to use a ticket office for 12% of ticket purchases. This is not a success and certainly does not justify closing all ticket offices and the railway industry only have themselves to blame for this including making rail ticketing too complicated and failing to ensure that all products and services can be obtained without the use of a ticket office. The fragmentation of passenger train services has been a big part of the problem. One big improvement which must have reduced the use of ticket offices is the introduction of smart cards for season tickets, including the new flexi-seasons but also weekly, monthly,period and annual, which enable rail users to buy their season tickets online and upload them on to their smart cards at the railway station, buy online, get ticket on first departure then use touch in and touch out. These are usually quite a long transactions so moving these away from ticket offices must greatly reduce total time spent by rail passengers making transactions at ticket offices. However this would have been done a lot more quickly with one national smart card supported by all train operators with one national smart ticketing system that works for every journey and every station. Instead each train operator introduced their own smart cards which did not work at the stations run by other operators which meant numerous very important commuter journeys could not have smart card season tickets. It took a long time for the train operators to enable their smart cards and tickets to work at stations run by even adjacent train operators operating stations connected by important commuter routes. Rail passengers also still have to go to a ticket office with a passport size photo to get a photocard, the railway industry really should have been able to offer alternative ways of getting a photocard and display information about these alternatives on their websites.
It is also still essential that passengers can buy all seven day season tickets at least on ticket vending machines at railway stations.
There will always be some people who cannot use ticket vending machines and need a ticket office service at a railway station, however this is provided, to buy rail tickets but use of ticket offices can be greatly reduced by making it totally clear which rail ticket is needed for every journey by simplifying the choice of tickets, limiting restrictions to morning peak only and making all tickets available on ticket vending machines. The problem is that the train operators have failed to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not very secure though. Anyone who knows your name and where you're staying can rock up at the Premier Inn before you arrive and check in as you. Happened to a friend of mine on a works night out. There should be a requirement to show proof of booking before the room key is issued.

It's secure enough, because that situation is easily resolved by booting out the errant person. Plus who's going to know that unless you tell them? And doing it on a work trip is likely to get the perpetrator both sacked and lacking accommodation for the night.

We had a debate like this ages ago when I proposed an e-ticket system MORE secure than the one that was implemented (but otherwise similar)...

 

[lrailadventure]

These have started appearing from TVMs at Manchester Airport:

If you use any of the new Transpennine TVMs, this is what you will receive now. At one point, there was a theory that all "bog roll" tickets will eventually look like these ones. Not sure how that plan is going though..

 

[SuspectUsual]

My (Tory) MP posted something about the consultation on Facebook yesterday. As I’d have expected he painted it as being “the railway” launching a review, but illustrated it with a picture of a train in Northern Ireland. I pointed out that nothing says “I’m in touch with local public transport, honest guv” like using that photo, and of course within half an hour my post had been deleted and the photo changed. Interestingly, he has also deleted every reply that is critical of the government, but left everything that is critical of Northern. Remember, this is the party of free speech

 

[island]

You do realise that most computers are now simply accessing online information - the same information which can be accessed using a tablet or phone - such systems are routinely designed to be device agnostic nowadays.

So any claim "it can be done on a computer but not a mobile device" is utter BS.

I'm afraid it's not as simple as declaring it "utter BS".

Many specialist applications, including most ticket office software, is coded for Windows, often specific versions, and tested only on specific hardware combinations, including connecting via specific cables to specific printers.

Whilst Windows tablet computers are available, the hardware for walkabout printing is totally different. And there are several other obstacles.

Avanti has deployed tablet based TIS in recent years after a lot of work, but it's a lot more than "simply accessing online information".

 

[Krokodil]

If you use any of the new Transpennine TVMs, this is what you will receive now. At one point, there was a theory that all "bog roll" tickets will eventually look like these ones. Not sure how that plan is going though..

What do they do if asked for travel south of the Thames?

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm afraid it's not as simple as declaring it "utter BS".

Many specialist applications, including most ticket office software, is coded for Windows, often specific versions, and tested only on specific hardware combinations, including connecting via specific cables to specific printers.

Whilst Windows tablet computers are available, the hardware for walkabout printing is totally different. And there are several other obstacles.

Avanti has deployed tablet based TIS in recent years after a lot of work, but it's a lot more than "simply accessing online information".

Whilst I don't doubt what you are saying, the bit I've highlighted sends shivers down my spine. Memories of some applications I've supported being reliant on single versions of Windows haunt me to this day....

However regardless of what happens to ticket offices, and in light of the potential for for more mobility of ticket sales on stations, that practice ought to be written out.

 

[156421]

Whilst I don't doubt what you are saying, the bit I've highlighted sends shivers down my spine. Memories of some applications I've supported being reliant on single versions of Windows haunt me to this day....

However regardless of what happens to ticket offices, and in light of the potential for for more mobility of ticket sales on stations, that practice ought to be written out.

Let's not forget that time all of the Northern TVMs were taken out by a ransomware attack. The advice was go to your nearest staffed station or non-Northern TVM...

 

[Bantamzen]

Let's not forget that time all of the Northern TVMs were taken out by a ransomware attack. The advice was go to your nearest staffed station or non-Northern TVM...

Which wasn't a lot of help if you weren't near a staffed station or non-Northern TVM. However that is for Northern to ensure that it is unlikely to happen again (it can never be totally ruled out), but it could potentially just as easily happen to older applications / networks, especially where they are reliant and possibly unsupported operating systems.

 

[johncrossley]

What do they do if asked for travel south of the Thames?

The similar machines at Gatwick advise that you need to use a normal machine for destinations that involve a cross London transfer.

 

[throwaway1989]

It is just mind boggling.

How can plans like that simply be about bringing people out from behind the glass? Dispatch staff are already out from behind the glass.

Exactly this. I've seen evidence that the station I work at want to reduce the amount of safety critical dispatchers. That's not upskilling staff it's cutting jobs to save money at no benefit to passengers or staff.

 

[M28361M]

These have started appearing from TVMs at Manchester Airport:

(picture shows a paper ticket in the same format as a PDF eTicket, issued on what appears to be standard white till roll)

Interesting. What happens if you try to buy a ticket not enabled for e-ticketing (for example to a Merseyrail station, or cross-London?)

 

[JW4]

JenontheMove has made her thoughts known

 

[Barnsley]

What do they do if asked for travel south of the Thames?

The TPE machines also have a CCST printer in them aswell, the one at my station issues TOD on CCST tickets

 

[A0]

I'm afraid it's not as simple as declaring it "utter BS".

Many specialist applications, including most ticket office software, is coded for Windows, often specific versions, and tested only on specific hardware combinations, including connecting via specific cables to specific printers.

Whilst Windows tablet computers are available, the hardware for walkabout printing is totally different. And there are several other obstacles.

Avanti has deployed tablet based TIS in recent years after a lot of work, but it's a lot more than "simply accessing online information".

You're talking to somebody who's been delivering IT projects for the last 2 decades, so I know the issues having encountered many of them.

Just because something hasn't been tested with a certain hardware or operating system doesn't mean it won't work - and a small regression test can often prove that either way.

The reality is though, most systems now use a 'thin' client front end, rather than having the whole application installed on the device - predominantly using a web browser or similar to access. The consumer ticketing sites are all accessing the same basic data via a set of API's - the same principle can easily be used for ticket offices as well.

 

[island]

I agree it can be done but it is not simple or easy. The ticket office systems are not thin clients or browser based.

 

[Snow1964]

Todays Transport debate in Parliament has seen speaker intervene, having heard that Chorley (in his constituency) would be staffed for fewer hours, but Minister was saying wouldn't be any cuts to staffing hours

Lindsay Hoyle says rail minister misinformed on ticket office closures

Commons speaker intervenes as MPs and unions challenge government plans to close offices across England

www.theguardian.com

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Todays Transport debate in Parliament has seen speaker intervene, having heard that Chorley (in his constituency) would be staffed for fewer hours, but Minister was saying wouldn't be any cuts to staffing hours

Lindsay Hoyle says rail minister misinformed on ticket office closures

Commons speaker intervenes as MPs and unions challenge government plans to close offices across England

www.theguardian.com

Within that it also states that Merriman says the cuts are "industry-led" proposals.

That's not what everyone else understands is it...?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Within that it also states that Merriman says the cuts are "industry-led" proposals.

That's not what everyone else understands is it...?

Well he would say that, wouldn't he? And no, of course they're not "industry-led", unless you count the DfT as being part of the industry

 

[Krokodil]

That's not what everyone else understands is it...?

It's a bit like saying that International Rescue is led by Jeff Tracey, when in reality it's the puppeteer off-screen who is controlling every move Jeff makes.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Todays Transport debate in Parliament has seen speaker intervene, having heard that Chorley (in his constituency) would be staffed for fewer hours, but Minister was saying wouldn't be any cuts to staffing hours

Lindsay Hoyle says rail minister misinformed on ticket office closures

Commons speaker intervenes as MPs and unions challenge government plans to close offices across England

www.theguardian.com

I feel awful just typing this, but if the quotes in that article are accurate, the minister was probably correct in what he said, and the Speaker was possibly not listening attentively. Merriman said no staffed station would become unstaffed, and the Speaker then picked him up on it because Chorley will have staff present for fewer hours. At face value, what Merriman said does apply to Chorley

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Merriman said he believed that staff were better deployed on station concourses rather than “behind a glass screen”, adding: “I give the commitment again from the train operators that no currently staffed station will become unstaffed as a result of these changes.”

The comment prompted an unusual intervention from the Commons speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, who highlighted issues in his Chorley constituency.

Sir Lindsay Hoyle told Merriman that at Chorley “the proposal is only to have someone available nine until four, which is half the time the ticket office was [open] … What you are being told isn’t the case.”

The bit in question

 

[tomuk]

The Speaker said:

I gently say to the Minister that Chorley matters to me; its ticket office is open all day, but the proposal is to have somebody available from nine to four, which is half the time. Please do take this up for people with disabilities, rightly, but don’t forget that what you are being told is not the case.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...-5E4F-4787-8D95-822BF668E050/RailwayTicketing

 

[Krokodil]

I feel awful just typing this, but if the quotes in that article are accurate, the minister was probably correct in what he said, and the Speaker was possibly not listening attentively. Merriman said no staffed station would become unstaffed, and the Speaker then picked him up on it because Chorley will have staff present for fewer hours. At face value, what Merriman said does apply to Chorley

The minister may have told the truth - and nothing but the truth - but it was certainly not the whole truth.

Dishonesty is as much about what you don't say as what you do.

 

[tomuk]

Merriman said no staffed station would become unstaffed, and the Speaker then picked him up on it because Chorley will have staff present for fewer hours. At face value, what Merriman said does apply to Chorley

Well looking at West Midlands Trains there doesn't appear to be any difference between a currently unstaffed station and current ticket office station after it closes.

Telford Central
Current status
This station currently has a ticket office, which is open as below.

Monday to Friday: 06:00 - 19:00
Saturday: 06:00 - 19:00
Sunday: 10:00 - 17:00
Proposed changes
The ticket office at this station will be closed. Staff from our new mobile teams will be deployed here on a flexible basis to undertake customer service, passenger assistance, safety and general upkeep duties.

Shifnal
Current status
This station has no ticket office and is currently unstaffed throughout the week.

Proposed changes
This station will see an enhanced staff presence. Staff from our new mobile teams will be deployed here on a flexible basis to undertake customer service, passenger assistance, safety and general upkeep duties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a bloke in a van turning up randomly to sweep the platform and put bleach down the bog is pushing the definition of "staffed", so this is seriously disingenuous.

I don't overly care if Bletchley is destaffed, to be honest, they don't do a lot at stations like that (though East West Rail could increase the need as it complicates what'll go on there). I'm more bothered if the coffee place is open. But I don't like it being lied about - clearly most WMT stations will become unstaffed by any sensible definition.

 

[tomuk]

I think a bloke in a van turning up randomly to sweep the platform and put bleach down the bog is pushing the definition of "staffed", so this is seriously disingenuous.

I don't overly care if Bletchley is destaffed, to be honest, they don't do a lot at stations like that (though East West Rail could increase the need as it complicates what'll go on there). I'm more bothered if the coffee place is open. But I don't like it being lied about - clearly most WMT stations will become unstaffed by any sensible definition.

It is also disingenuous because the current unstaffed stations are already visited by staff on general upkeep visits anyway.

 

[172007]

Post office syndrome has now officially arrived.

Yesterday I was at my local station, there was a small queue at the booking office. I overheard a conversation start up, guess what one said to the other. Yep, I am only using the ticket office to keep it open as I would normally use the vending machine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Post office syndrome has now officially arrived.

Yesterday I was at my local station, there was a small queue at the booking office. I overheard a conversation start up, guess what one said to the other. Yep, I am only using the ticket office to keep it open as I would normally use the vending machine.

"I want my local rural bus service to continue so it's there if my car breaks down", perchance?

It's to me tragic this has been so badly botched. A well designed national scheme to change how tickets are bought would be beneficial - that requires a new system to be designed including what is sold, not just how it's sold. This is a bin fire.

 

[AlterEgo]

You couldn't get a more British bodge than this, and that includes the reaction to it too. Much of the public are in complete denial of the politics surrounding it.

Many people have wanted central government control of the railways for a very long time. Enjoy the consequences of that and don't say you weren't warned.