Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Starmill]

But surely the amount of cash in any given TVM would be well below the typical insurance policy excess.

At my previous employer (c.100 employees, £20m turnover), there was a £25,000 excess on the general "all risks" insurance policy.

If a cash handling specialist courier is being used for historical reasons there may be no excess at all. The cash couriers are quite an expensive service though, as effectively they're providing a safety guarantee on all cash moving around between the banks and retail locations, especially as some TOCs would have a float delivered and collected to a remote booking office very frequently. I agree as cash volumes have nosedived the need for this may be negligible now.

 

[317 forever]

I have a smartphone as it was the only type of mobile phone I could get. I use it for phone calls and nothing else.
No-one is required to use a smartphone for rail tickets and I will never do so.
I always buy the rail ticket at the station, usually on a ticket vending machine, at the start of the journey.

Conversely, I'm one of the 7% who does not own a smartphone. However, I have come to terms with buying not just Advance but regular tickets online now - usually in PDF form but potentially occasionally fast tickets if for example Bus Plus is included.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is fraud risk - what stops you from giving same ranger to all your friends, as long as you're mildly clever about it and don't create an impossible journey history?

It's a pretty tiny risk though as abusing the ticket in that way would be extremely difficult.

 

[Hadders]

If a cash handling specialist courier is being used for historical reasons there may be no excess at all. The cash couriers are quite an expensive service though, as effectively they're providing a safety guarantee on all cash moving around between the banks and retail locations, especially as some TOCs would have a float delivered and collected to a remote booking office very frequently. I agree as cash volumes have nosedived the need for this may be negligible now.

A cash in transit companies are often used to fill ATMs at many non-bank locations where the amount of cash involved would dwarf the cash in a TVM.

The amount of cash in a TVM is likely to be relatively low given that cash accounts for a declining minority of transactions (and those transactions are likely to be lower vaue ones). Stations with ticket offices would self fill and empty TVMs but I'd expect that over time this would transition to being dealt with by a 3rd party cash in transit provider. This would remove the need for cash to be kept at stations and reconciled etc which is a task saving.

The proposed floorwalkers selling tickets will almost certainly be using the TVMs to sell tickets rather than a standalone ticket machine. Where there is a transaction that cannot be done via a TVM, and the customer wishes to pay cash, then the cash taken could be receipted into the TVM in a supervisor mode which would remove the need to reconcile it, store it and prepare it for banking in the back office.

 

[sor]

Adding another anecdote on TVM quality. I have been looking at whether the Network Railcard would be appropriate for my travel even though A and B are outside the zone, but I can do most of it inside the zone by using Waterloo instead of Paddington.

I happened to be at Waterloo today so thought I’d try going through the motions on a machine. When selecting Exeter St Davids it explicitly said the ticket would only be valid via Waterloo, and to get a GWR fare you’d have to buy at Paddington (I guess this is semi accurate, though it could be a question - do you wish to have the option to return via Paddington?)

The weird bit is that when I selected Network Railcard, it gave me some sort of warning about how the ticket wouldn’t be valid via Avanti and two other TOCs that have nothing to do with the south west. It confuses me, it will surely confuse infrequent users more.

I didn’t try at the office since I don’t want to buy a ticket right now, but I wonder if they would have been more helpful

 

[Hadders]

I don't know where A and B are but tickets from London to Exeter are routed via Honiton or via Taunton. The via Honiton route is wholly within the Network Railcard area and so tickets are discountable. Via Taunton fares go outside the area so are not. TVMs at either station should be able to sell wither ticket but I'd expect Waterloo TVMs to default to via Honiton and Paddington's to default to via Taunton.

If you want to go out one way and return the other then a change of route excess is needed. This can be purchased on the train with no penalty but it is something where provision ought to be made for it to be ontained at a station in the 'new world'. That said, the direction of travel seems to be towards single leg pricing where you'd just but the appropriate single ticket in each direction.

I agree that the warning about Avanti and other TOCs and should be removed.

 

[tomuk]

The problem is fraud risk - what stops you from giving same ranger to all your friends, as long as you're mildly clever about it and don't create an impossible journey history?

For singles/returns, they can tell from scan history if the ticket's been used before, so that's fine (well, you could give someone the return half of a ticket you only need the outward half of, which is against the rules, but you can do that with paper tickets anyway), but for rangers, usage history doesn't indicate anything about validity - the way they prevent you from sharing it is by giving you exactly one copy of a physical ticket.

The solution would be something like what Trainline's trialling for season tickets, where the ticket's only shown on an app (and generates a new barcode every time, so you can't take a screenshot), but it's not just a matter of doing it the same as singles.

If you sent thee-ticket baased rover to all your friends you would need to be very careful not to construct an invalid set of ticket scans. It would be very easy to spot just by looking at the journey history the system could then block the e-ticket like the contactless\Oyster system does.

No we don't want more of the Trainline's proprietary ticket types

 

[sor]

I don't know where A and B are but tickets from London to Exeter are routed via Honiton or via Taunton. The via Honiton route is wholly within the Network Railcard area and so tickets are discountable. Via Taunton fares go outside the area so are not. TVMs at either station should be able to sell wither ticket but I'd expect Waterloo TVMs to default to via Honiton and Paddington's to default to via Taunton.

Well I've learnt something - the one-piece A to B (don't want to get too specific here - one end is in East Anglia and the other well beyond Exeter) ticket does not appear to have that restriction, the route is VIA LONDON

(should rail ticketing be simpler part 94)

 

[Starmill]

The solution would be something like what Trainline's trialling for season tickets, where the ticket's only shown on an app (and generates a new barcode every time, so you can't take a screenshot), but it's not just a matter of doing it the same as singles.

This is really poor for customers and as such many TOCs are dead against it.

Avanti West Coast ticket offices will sell seasons priced by Avanti West Coast to eticket, not ridiculous app-locked mtickets.

 

[ste238]

A cash in transit companies are often used to fill ATMs at many non-bank locations where the amount of cash involved would dwarf the cash in a TVM.

The amount of cash in a TVM is likely to be relatively low given that cash accounts for a declining minority of transactions (and those transactions are likely to be lower vaue ones). Stations with ticket offices would self fill and empty TVMs but I'd expect that over time this would transition to being dealt with by a 3rd party cash in transit provider. This would remove the need for cash to be kept at stations and reconciled etc which is a task saving.

The proposed floorwalkers selling tickets will almost certainly be using the TVMs to sell tickets rather than a standalone ticket machine. Where there is a transaction that cannot be done via a TVM, and the customer wishes to pay cash, then the cash taken could be receipted into the TVM in a supervisor mode which would remove the need to reconcile it, store it and prepare it for banking in the back office.

My experience of Loomis and G4S is that they only carry money already deposited in their cash bags ready to scan into their cases. I can't see them emptying machines so will likely still be the on site staff responsibility.

 

[Krokodil]

Britrail passes are already available electronically, so rovers aren't out of the question (though said pass does have to be backed-up with a passport that matches the name on the ticket). If I issue a Merseyrail Saveaway the passenger's name appears upon the ticket so doing the same with electronic rovers would act as a deterrent to passing the same ticket between people - Saveaways are probably the most common rover ticket issued these days.

Alternatively, rovers could use an mTicket format where something is moving on the screen to prove that it is live.

 

[Hadders]

My experience of Loomis and G4S is that they only carry money already deposited in their cash bags ready to scan into their cases. I can't see them emptying machines so will likely still be the on site staff responsibility.

I can assure you that in my (non-railway) employment I have seen them empty machines. Their business isn't all about collecting cash bankings from shops.

 

[bramling]

It's beyond doubt that Northern have put extra restrictions on sales in place just a few months before attempting to close nearly all of those sales outlets. Presumably your view is that this is some kind of coincidence? I'm not that naive.

I seem to remember TFL did something similar at one point. Forbidding staff to sell tickets from windows outside of the advertised opening times. So you could have the situation of a member of staff sitting in a window, someone comes up wanting to buy a ticket, and having to be told “sorry you can’t”.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

You are never going to reach the levels of training that we would desire; it is simply not going to happen! But why do they need to be hidden away in offices?

I find the idea that booking-office staff are “hidden away” a bit emotive.

At my local station the booking office windows are pretty unmissable the moment one enters the station, certainly hardly hidden. Likewise there’s plenty of places where the staff don’t work “behind glass”, which seems to be the other tag line which crops up often.

I know there’s a few places like Blackburn where the booking office is in an odd location, but this is very much the minority.

By contrast, use somewhere like High Barnet which has gone through TFL’s “fit for the future” programme, and it’s a lottery where the staff are, they could be in one of three places, that’s if there’s anyone there at all. One can imagine that this will be what will happen on the mainline in practice once the dust settles.

 

[Philip]

I saw a FOI statistic earlier today on the Northern twitter page which shows last year there were around 3.5 million TVM sales at Northern stations, however there were over 8 million ticket office sales in the same 12 month period. E-tickets may be the future and the predominant method, but taking this result I think there is a strong argument that ticket offices are ahead of TVMs in terms of convenience and efficiency.

 

[Gaelan]

If you sent thee-ticket baased rover to all your friends you would need to be very careful not to construct an invalid set of ticket scans. It would be very easy to spot just by looking at the journey history the system could then block the e-ticket like the contactless\Oyster system does.

It'd certainly take some coordination, not just sending it to all your friends and telling them to go wild, but it seems like there'd be cases where it's doable? Maybe you're right and it's a small enough risk that it doesn't matter.

No we don't want more of the Trainline's proprietary ticket types

This is really poor for customers and as such many TOCs are dead against it.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm in ScotRail territory, and I always use paper tickets because I refuse to deal with mTickets. I don't like this idea. But it seems like the only way you'd get electronically issued rangers, certainly from a DfT TOC in this climate. Happy to be wrong, though!

 

[Halwynd]

I saw a FOI statistic earlier today on the Northern twitter page which shows last year there were around 3.5 million TVM sales at Northern stations, however there were over 8 million ticket office sales in the same 12 month period. E-tickets may be the future and the predominant method, but taking this result I think there is a strong argument that ticket offices are ahead of TVMs in terms of convenience and efficiency.

Before 2020 I used to regularly use a station that had a booking office and three TVMs. I would always use the booking office - quick, simple and off you go.

No faffing around repeatedly pressing keys and selecting options on a dirty and possibly bug-ridden TVM screen, no worrying about whether your phone battery will last the journey and the possibilty you'll be issued a Penalty Fare (I once had an iPhone that ended up with battery calibration problems due to a bug in an Apple software update), no having to carry charging cables or a portable power station with you, and no need to carry tickets you've previously had to print yourself onto A4 paper that doesn't fit in your wallet. If I have a choice it's the booking office for me every single time.

The only time I used the TVMs was once or twice a year to collect work-related Advance tickets via TOD. The responsiveness of the screen keys was poor and you often had to press them a few times to get them to register, and the things were so slow I think they ran on Windows 65!

 

[Krokodil]

Yeah, I've never come across a TVM that was quick to use. Each press of a button has to be much firmer than on a capacitive touch screen and they don't recognise CRS codes so you can't take any short cuts (many place names in Wales start with "Llan" so it's not until you've spelled the fifth letter that you start narrowing down the options).

 

[WibbleWobble]

Yeah, I've never come across a TVM that was quick to use. Each press of a button has to be much firmer than on a capacitive touch screen and they don't recognise CRS codes so you can't take any short cuts (many place names in Wales start with "Llan" so it's not until you've spelled the fifth letter that you start narrowing down the options).

Plus on a Transport for Wales TVM, it isn't possible to get the free child ticket. So you have to hope the guard comes through (or go and find them!), otherwise it is a faff to get through the barriers at the other end (should the station have them).

This was a problem I had when catching a service into Shrewsbury - thankfully I photographed the message on the machine and showed it to the security staff manning the gate. Coming back, I went to - you guessed it - the ticket office who sorted out the free tickets for the return trip.

 

[43066]

If I see someone saying something I disagree with, for example a suggestion that having people in offices is better than them walking the floor, I will say so. That doesn't mean people can infer all sorts of things I've not said and it doesn't mean I want to get into a theoretical debate, nor does it mean I can be expected to know what the Government may actually do l or any other complicated theoretical questions, whataboutery, or predictions about government policies. If anyone else wants to debate those things, feel free, but it's not for me.

I’m quite quite happy to debate specifics, which is why I’ve specifically asked you whether you think the proposals as tabled are compatible with your expressed wish for increased staffing levels?

As mentioned, as a direct result of these proposals, my operator is intending to reduce headcount by around one hundred on the stations side of the operation (not a complicated theoretical question, or whataboutery, it’s actually happening). Do you therefore oppose that?

What about the objections raised by the various disabled charities that have spoken out? They apparently think these changes will negatively impact those they represent. Are they wrong to object on that basis?

 

[weeklycommuter]

TOD will go regardless. All tickets will be barcode tickets, even if they are printed.

SWR ticket offices (which they now propose to close) have switched to issuing barcode tickets for journeys not crossing London. However SWR confirmed that anything that involves crossing London or any Travelcards are all still issued on credit card sized ticket as Transport for London ticket gates do not yet support barcode tickets. SWR ticket vending machines still issue all tickets as credit card sized ticket.

 

[Whistler40145]

What will happen at stations whereby the passenger lift has only been in operation when the ticket office is open?

 

[Krokodil]

Plus on a Transport for Wales TVM, it isn't possible to get the free child ticket. So you have to hope the guard comes through (or go and find them!), otherwise it is a faff to get through the barriers at the other end (should the station have them).

This was a problem I had when catching a service into Shrewsbury - thankfully I photographed the message on the machine and showed it to the security staff manning the gate. Coming back, I went to - you guessed it - the ticket office who sorted out the free tickets for the return trip.

It's particularly a problem if the destination is operated by another TOC - Man Picc for example

SWR ticket offices (which they now propose to close) have switched to issuing barcode tickets for journeys not crossing London. However SWR confirmed that anything that involves crossing London or any Travelcards are all still issued on credit card sized ticket as Transport for London ticket gates do not yet support barcode tickets. SWR ticket vending machines still issue all tickets as credit card sized ticket.

Virgin did the same. LNER use paper roll tickets at their booking offices too.

It's about time that the DfT brought some pressure down upon TfL to fit barcode scanners at LU/NR interchanges.

 

[yorkie]

SWR ticket offices (which they now propose to close) have switched to issuing barcode tickets for journeys not crossing London. However SWR confirmed that anything that involves crossing London or any Travelcards are all still issued on credit card sized ticket as Transport for London ticket gates do not yet support barcode tickets. SWR ticket vending machines still issue all tickets as credit card sized ticket.

For more information on this, see:

RDG Retailers not offering E-tickets (eg non tube, Merseyrail etc journeys)

But how does that work in practice now? I find it's not seen the same way It's a grey area unfortunately. I want to see more clarity regarding customer rights in this area.

www.railforums.co.uk

Plus on a Transport for Wales TVM, it isn't possible to get the free child ticket. So you have to hope the guard comes through (or go and find them!), otherwise it is a faff to get through the barriers at the other end (should the station have them).

This was a problem I had when catching a service into Shrewsbury - thankfully I photographed the message on the machine and showed it to the security staff manning the gate. Coming back, I went to - you guessed it - the ticket office who sorted out the free tickets for the return trip.

For any journey where children travel free, the barrier staff should simply allow them through, without quibble. If barrier staff are not doing that, then complaints should be made and the staff given suitable words of guidance by their employer.

I find the idea that booking-office staff are “hidden away” a bit emotive.

Certainly at my local station the booking office windows are pretty unmissable the moment one enters the station....

OK fair enough but it clearly is the case at many other stations, including my own.

I’m quite quite happy to debate specifics, which is why I’ve specifically asked you whether you think the proposals as tabled are compatible with your expressed wish for increased staffing levels?

The proposals state there will be more staff available to give face to face help, so on the face of it, yes. But I know we can't trust train companies or the DfT to behave in a manner that is pro-customer, so whether or not promises are actually kept is a very different question!

But there are separate concepts here and it's quite possible to support something (e.g. moving towards online sales, making staff more visible etc) while not supporting something else (e.g. simply removing staff entirely); as I said above, we do need new methods of working. That doesn't mean we need to completely remove staff!

As mentioned, as a direct result of these proposals, my operator is intending to reduce headcount by around one hundred on the stations side of the operation (not a complicated theoretical question, or whataboutery, it’s actually happening). Do you therefore oppose that?

Do you have a link to, and quote from, these plans and any associated information which makes it clear that they are against the principles of providing more staff available to offer face to face help? If you can provide this, I'll take a look. If it's already been posted, I must have missed it (it's a big thread!)

What about the objections raised by the various disabled charities that have spoken out? They apparently think these changes will negatively impact those they represent. Are they wrong to object on that basis?

Can you edit your post to link to, and quote from, the sources to which you refer? (If there is a post in this thread which already does that, feel free to link to that instead)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

It's particularly a problem if the destination is operated by another TOC - Man Picc for example

Has anyone raised this with companies such as Avanti? what was their response? It's totally unacceptable for Avanti (or any other company) to give hassle to anyone who is travelling legitimately on another company's trains. This is best discussed as a separate thread, in the fares section.

Virgin did the same. LNER use paper roll tickets at their booking offices too.

It's about time that the DfT brought some pressure down upon TfL to fit barcode scanners at LU/NR interchanges.

I completely agree. But it is finally actually happening (albeit far later than it should be):

RDG Retailers not offering E-tickets (eg non tube, Merseyrail etc journeys)

But how does that work in practice now? I find it's not seen the same way It's a grey area unfortunately. I want to see more clarity regarding customer rights in this area.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[K.o.R]

It's particularly a problem if the destination is operated by another TOC - Man Picc for example


Virgin did the same. LNER use paper roll tickets at their booking offices too.

It's about time that the DfT brought some pressure down upon TfL to fit barcode scanners at LU/NR interchanges.

As an aside, why can't the barcodes just be printed on credit-card-sized tickets?

 

[Krokodil]

As an aside, why can't the barcodes just be printed on credit-card-sized tickets?

CCSTs are far more expensive than paper roll tickets. And then there are eTickets that cost the railway basically nothing - if printed the cost lies with the consumer.

 

[43066]

OK fair enough but it clearly is the case at many other stations, including my own.

I agree with @bramling and can’t think of a single location where ticket offices are “hidden away”. They tend to be prominently on display. On the other hand just this week I’ve been delayed several times looking for supposedly more visible staff to let me through LU ticket barriers.

That isn’t an argument for retaining ticket offices in their current form, but it also shows that simply closing ticket offices doesn’t actually make staff more visible, especially if there are fewer of them…

Do you have a link to, and quote from, these plans and any associated information which makes it clear that they are against the principles of providing more staff available to offer face to face help? If you can provide this, I'll take a look. If it's already been posted, I must have missed it (it's a big thread!)

It isn’t publicly available but it’s now known internally that the number of staff on stations (all of whom offer face to face assistance as part of their role) is being significantly reduced as a result of these changes. Those who remain will longer provide assistance from inside the ticket office, but there will be fewer of them overall.

That should come as no surprise; it ties in with what is made clear from the public consultation, and this position is replicated across all TOCs.

But there are separate concepts here and it's quite possible to support something (e.g. moving towards online sales, making staff more visible etc) while not supporting something else (e.g. simply removing staff entirely); as I said above, we do need new methods of working. That doesn't mean we need to completely remove staff!

I haven’t disagreed with any of that, but as I (and others have pointed out) these proposals aren’t just about removing ticket offices and making staff more visible, they’re also very much about slashing headcount to reduce costs.

One highlight from the mid sized locations on the EMR network (Spalding, Stamford etc.):

Although the ticket office will close, we expect weekly visits from mobile staff at the station.

And from Southeastern:

• At Southeastern’s medium and larger sized stations, where it is agreed that ticket offices are no longer required, they will be closed. Overall, these stations will have fewer staff, but they will be better able to support our customers following enhanced training and being empowered to assist people face-to-face

Surely you aren’t suggesting that you believe we are going to see more staff available to offer face to face assistance as a result of these proposals? If that is your belief, it’s simply wrong.

Can you edit your post to link to, and quote from, the sources to which you refer? (If there is a post in this thread which already does that, feel free to link to that instead)

The RNIB has stated as follows:

RNIB is very concerned this would be another barrier to train travel faced by blind and partially sighted passengers, making it more difficult to travel independently.

Despite such major changes being proposed, the consultation is only open for 21 days, which is far too short. In line with principles of good consultation, we would expect the consultation to last at least 12 weeks.

Vivienne Francis, Chief Social Change Officer at RNIB said: “A mass closure of rail ticket offices would have a hugely detrimental impact on blind and partially sighted people’s ability to buy tickets, arrange assistance and, critically, travel independently.

“RNIB research shows that only 3 per cent of people with sight loss said they could use a ticket vending machine without problems and 58 per cent said it was impossible.

So clear believe that more reliance on TVMs, and fewer staff available to offer assistance, are clearly going to affect blind and partially sighted users. Are you suggesting they’re incorrect?

More generally it’s clear that the consultation places additional focus on the existing passenger assistance regime. Given that system we know works inconsistently-to-badly at the moment, it isn’t idle speculation to suggest that that will lead to more bad outcomes for disabled passengers.

 

[Hadders]

As an aside, why can't the barcodes just be printed on credit-card-sized tickets?

LNER ran a trial a few years ago. Unfortunately there isn't sufficient space to fit an appropriate sized barcode onto the CCST ticket as well as all the other printed information that is needed. If the barcode is made smaller then there are difficulties scanning it. If the print fone is reduced in size to maintain the barcode size then this creates other issues.

I do think it's a shame a solution couldn't be found. A CCST ticket is so convenient to pop into a wallet or card holder. Paper Till Roll tickets wouldn't be so bad if, when folded in half, were the same size as CCST.

 

[SuspectUsual]

As an aside, why can't the barcodes just be printed on credit-card-sized tickets?

Barcodes don’t scan very reliably when printed on a background that isn’t a solid colour (and in any event work best on a white background - in a previous life I did a piece of work for Castrol to fix issues with non-scanning barcodes on dark brown boxes)

 

[Smethwickian]

If you seriously believe the "consultation" is not a sham - just a cut-and-paste box-ticking exercise - then how about this magnificent promise from London Northwestern.

One of its currently unstaffed stations, which has no ticket machine, will now have a regular staff presence. The consultation promises: "This station will see an enhanced staff presence. Staff from our new mobile teams will be deployed here on a flexible basis to undertake customer service, passenger assistance, safety and general upkeep duties."

And this bustling metropolis? Polesworth.

Yes, Polesworth, the station with one train per day in one direction only.

So the likes of Birmingham New Street, busiest station outside London, will have no ticket office but, hey, all is going to be wonderful as Polesworth's thronging mass of commuters will now have hands-on staff to see them on their way.

So if you believe that, then obviously the consultation is entirely genuine and all the proposals are extremely sound.

 

[A0]

It could be possible actually. You may have cards but the network operating them is down then what?

Such outages are both rare and limited in time - it's not a reason to block progress.

Most cards can allow an amount of off line sale providing it is PIN validated, which is how the ticket machines used by guards or on buses work as they may enter mobile blackspots.