Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[yorkie]

The poster you quoted here was saying he opposes the current proposals, due to the reality that the government is clearly intending to significantly destaff stations. So agreeing with that statement (as I certainly do) seems somewhat at odds with your other responses.

If you can find where you think I've said something that contradicts that statement, feel free to quote it.

I don't know either of those stations (sorry I deleted Cambridge North) - but I am assuming they have no ticket offices open at the times you are referring to

The general answer is no. Obviously in some sort of emergency there might be an exception

Especially an evening when her sight can become more iffy and she feels more vulnerable

But why? How can someone in an office help someone whose eyesight is iffy more than someone on a platform or concourse?

 

[Timetraveller]

That's why a consultation is happening ?

To quote from GWR's website (but others will be the same).



But until the consultation is complete and mitigations are agreed you can't say it will disadvantage a group. If all registered blind were given a national railcard for example - how would that be a "disadvantage" ? They wouldn't need to interact to buy a ticket, simply turn up and go. A member of staff on a platform or gateline can tell them which platform they need, whether the train is late etc etc.

How many countries issue a national railcard to registered blind people?
Guide dogs are currently trained to take the blind person to the ticket office window.
Guide dog training would have to change.

I noted previous comment that your son aged 16 bought a 16-25 railcard. If you live in England and Wales a ticket office should have told him to purchase a 16-17 saver card online and thus saving 50 percent of train travel rather than 34 percent with morning minimum fares of £12 before 10am between 1st September and 30th June.

 

[yorkie]

How many countries issue a national railcard to registered blind people?
Guide dogs are currently trained to take the blind person to the ticket office window.
Guide dog training would have to change.

But many stations do not have ticket offices already, or have very restricted hours.

So if you are saying the logic needs to change, surely it was never quite right in the first place?

 

[A0]

As others have said, knowing the Government it's probably a bit of a smokescreen, allowing them to backtrack and "save" some of these locations so they can continue sweeping the rest into history and legitimise the consultation.

I'll bet you a couple of pints of "Old & Filthy" and large pack of pork scratchings (or alternatively £10 to a charity of your choice) that the major station ones close as planned.

Any saved will be in smaller places and it will be on the basis of security or safety of staff. The big stations are ideally configured to make these changes. Somewhere small / medium sized in a slightly dubious area where a bit of trouble isn't unheard of, less so.

 

[AlterEgo]

People misunderstand the concept of "consultation" - it is not a "consultation" in the sense of "what would you like us to do", it's a consultation of "here are our proposals - if there is a problem (1) with these then feed that back so we can reassess them".

I don't know who "people" are in this context but as someone who has actually had to collect consultation responses and is familiar with how government uses them, I can assure you I am not one.

[1] - by "there is a problem" it does not mean, "I don't like it", "I don't agree with it" or anything like that. It absolutely *is* to ensure that proper assessment has been made of the impact and, where appropriate, further mitigations or changes are made.

This change is going to happen - doesn't matter who shouts or bawls about it, be it posters on here, outrage merchants on Twitter, the rail unions, pressure groups etc etc - it's happening.

I'm glad you've mentioned this - yes, contrary to the wording of the consultation, which is as follows:

If proposals for the future of ticket offices are approved when the results of the consultation are implemented

- the proposals will go ahead, with some minor, pre-costed political concessions which will already have been thought about. The consultation is being held in the middle of summer and concludes right at the beginning of the parliamentary recess.

You absolutely are allowed to object to the proposals and indeed should do so if they would make it more difficult for you to use the train.

So the important thing for groups like the RNIB are to ensure suitable provisions are in place for the people they claim to represent. They can't argue "it makes it impossible to travel" because were that the case blind people wouldn't be able to travel on the London Underground, or the Docklands Light Railway, or Manchester Metrolink or even Sweden's national rail network.

But you've already heard that destaffed stations make it much less accessible to the point of being impossible for many blind people. Of course the RNIB can argue that hundreds of thousands of people will be unable to safely use the network where they come across unstaffed stations, and I remain surprised that you have stuck to assuming they know more about their situation then they do, and even suggest they don't know how to formulate the "correct response". Correct for whom, exactly?

Maybe there will be a further headcount reduction - but ask yourself this - if the reduction in headcount at a local station is that during 'daytime' there are 2 people on the gateline, 1 on each of the 3 platforms, where currently there is that plus 2 in the ticket office - is that going to materially change the experience for somebody seeking help ?

It's going to result in material changes when the headcount reduces to zero at some stations, yes. This will almost certainly happen.

 

[A0]

How many countries issue a national railcard to registered blind people?
Guide dogs are currently trained to take the blind person to the ticket office window.
Guide dog training would have to change.

So how do guide dogs cope at stations where there isn't a ticket office..... And how do they know the difference?

I noted previous comment that your son aged 16 bought a 16-25 railcard. If you live in England and Wales a ticket office should have told him to purchase a 16-17 saver card online and thus saving 50 percent of train travel rather than 34 percent with morning minimum fares of £12 before 10am between 1st September and 30th June.

Paid for using Clubcard vouchers - which aren't valid on the 16-17 Saver Card. And he doesn't use the train often enough to offset the cash cost of buying that, whereas by using Clubcard vouchers it was effectively "free" as I didn't renew the Family Railcard we used to have.

 

[NeilCr]

But why? How can someone in an office help someone whose eyesight is iffy more than someone on a platform or concourse?

Sorry I thought I'd been through this

At the moment my partner has a one stop shop at a ticket office for buying tickets, confirming train times and being told platform number

Ramsgate's four platforms are through an underpass so if the person was on one of them she'd have to find them (see my post about her condition)

If the person was in the waiting hall selling tickets, confirming train times and giving information about platform numbers (if that is what you are saying?) then they might as well be in the ticket office - which is in the waiting hall

And they'd have to be there all of the time

Not sure if I am misunderstanding your question..

 

[Rail Ranger]

Nice bit of false equivalence there though - the way you're framing it is there will be nobody to help you buy a ticket at Euston, whereas there will at Aughton Park - which isn't the case.

Avanti's own consultation document states there will be support available 0600 - 2200 6 days a week and 0700 - 2200 on Sunday, plus the station will be staffed 20+ hours a day - the only 'unstaffed' times are pretty limited.

Avanti West Coast | Buy Train Tickets | No Booking Fee

Welcome to Avanti West Coast. Buy train tickets and find train times with no booking fees and rewards when you travel. Travel in style across the UK.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

The issue with Merseyrail is a local issue - they're grandstanding by saying 'oh we won't close any ticket offices' - and no doubt Burnham will be trying something similar in Greater Manchester - the problem with both their positions is TFL have already closed all the ticket offices on the Underground - and the Merseyrail network serves much the same purpose that the Underground does. As ever, Merseyside is simply being a few decades behind the rest of the country.

But will you be able to pay in cash at Euston?

 

[SLC001]

We have connections with Guide Dogs for the Blind and indeed just had an email from them objecting to the proposals. What we have learned is how knowledgeable (compared to us) they are about the problems partially sighted people have, how adaptable partially sighted people are but also how varied their needs are. I think folks will know where I stand on this issue.
"Disabled" people should never be lumped in one category, each one should have their individual needs assessed and proposals like this must recognise the variance in each persons' needs. They must not be obstructed in trying to do basic things that most of all take for granted.
Another thing I have had experience of with my parents and in-laws, now no longer with us. The capability of each individual person can be quite marked. My father struggled with IT and he was very sharp so when I objected to various proposals regarding online banking there was one response I despised. It was along the lines of "my father or grandfather fully embraces IT therefore, by implication, so should yours". That is so arrogant and selfish and fails to recognise each elderly or disabled person as having specific needs and frankly, intellectual capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

"Disabled" people should never be lumped in one category, each one should have their individual needs assessed and proposals like this must recognise the variance in each persons' needs.

Agreed. Some disabled people might struggle to communicate with a person in the ticket office, but can use a ticket machine fine. For others the reverse will be true.

 

[A0]

I don't know who "people" are in this context but as someone who has actually had to collect consultation responses and is familiar with how government uses them, I can assure you I am not one.

It was a general clarification, not aimed at anyone in particular.

You absolutely are allowed to object to the proposals and indeed should do so if they would make it more difficult for you to use the train.


But you've already heard that destaffed stations make it much less accessible to the point of being impossible for many blind people. Of course the RNIB can argue that hundreds of thousands of people will be unable to safely use the network where they come across unstaffed stations, and I remain surprised that you have stuck to assuming they know more about their situation then they do, and even suggest they don't know how to formulate the "correct response". Correct for whom, exactly?

They are not going to stop these ticket offices being closed. Sorry - but that's the reality. It does not *prevent* people from travelling - those people may not like how they need to buy a ticket or may not be comfortable with it and choose not to travel, but it doesn't prevent them from travelling. That's the key to it and why any challenge to it using discrimination legislation will in all likelihood be unsuccessful.

Which is why the correct response is to ensure suitable allowances or mitigations are put in place. But keeping ticket offices open won't be considered proportionate or reasonable.

It's going to result in material changes when the headcount reduces to zero at some stations, yes. This will almost certainly happen.

Almost 50% of stations are unstaffed now. There are probably some where the usage is sufficiently low which could easily be unstaffed with minimal impact.

 

[NeilCr]

We have connections with Guide Dogs for the Blind and indeed just had an email from them objecting to the proposals. What we have learned is how knowledgeable (compared to us) they are about the problems partially sighted people have, how adaptable partially sighted people are but also how varied their needs are. I think folks will know where I stand on this issue.
"Disabled" people should never be lumped in one category, each one should have their individual needs assessed and proposals like this must recognise the variance in each persons' needs. They must not be obstructed in trying to do basic things that most of all take for granted.
Another thing I have had experience of with my parents and in-laws, now no longer with us. The capability of each individual person can be quite marked. My father struggled with IT and he was very sharp so when I objected to various proposals regarding online banking there was one response I despised. It was along the lines of "my father or grandfather fully embraces IT therefore, by implication, so should yours". That is so arrogant and selfish and fails to recognise each elderly or disabled person as having specific needs and frankly, intellectual capacity.

Thank you for this

You've said - far better than I (!) - part of what I was trying to get across

The - you/your parent/ etc should be able to do it because I/my parent/etc can do it is one I come across a lot and find really annoying

 

[43066]

If you can find where you think I've said something that contradicts that statement, feel free to quote it.

It’s more that you’ve almost exclusively focussed on bad experiences with ticket offices, rather than expressing any concerns around destaffing more generally.

Do you have a view on whether these proposals, with this government standing behind them, are really intended to produce beneficial reform of ticket offices, or simply to cut costs in a way that will leave more locations completely unstaffed more of the time?

We have connections with Guide Dogs for the Blind and indeed just had an email from them objecting to the proposals. What we have learned is how knowledgeable (compared to us) they are about the problems partially sighted people have, how adaptable partially sighted people are but also how varied their needs are. I think folks will know where I stand on this issue.
"Disabled" people should never be lumped in one category, each one should have their individual needs assessed and proposals like this must recognise the variance in each persons' needs. They must not be obstructed in trying to do basic things that most of all take for granted.
Another thing I have had experience of with my parents and in-laws, now no longer with us. The capability of each individual person can be quite marked. My father struggled with IT and he was very sharp so when I objected to various proposals regarding online banking there was one response I despised. It was along the lines of "my father or grandfather fully embraces IT therefore, by implication, so should yours". That is so arrogant and selfish and fails to recognise each elderly or disabled person as having specific needs and frankly, intellectual capacity.

There can be a cynical tendency to use benign sounding arguments, along the lines of not patronising/singling out disabled people and other groups, as a way to excuse not providing for them at all.

We have seen it demonstrated on this very thread!

 

[yorkie]

It’s more that you’ve almost exclusively focussed on bad experiences with ticket offices, rather than expressing any concerns around destaffing more generally.

Well, if you later do find something, feel free to quote it!

Do you have a view on whether these proposals, with this government standing behind them, are really intended to produce beneficial reform of ticket offices, or simply to cut costs in a way that will leave more locations completely unstaffed more of the time?

I do not know the Government's intentions (nor do I trust them not to change their minds on a whim!) but I've already said what I'd like to see happen upthread.

Change needs to happen; the debate is about how, and what. Not if!

 

[A0]

But will you be able to pay in cash at Euston?

No idea. I'm sure there will be some provision for cash payment - but if you're travelling in London you'll be very familiar with not paying cash because of Contactless or Oyster.

 

[Krokodil]

It helps if you actually bothered to read the post I was responding to...... the previous poster wasn't just talking about ticket offices. And I maintain such changes have happened across Europe as well - when did you last see a bus with a conductor in France or Italy ? I don't remember shop assistants packing my groceries when I was in Carrefour, Intermarche or Super U on holiday in France.

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post, should have been this one:

It's only what's happened in just about every other country in Europe, as mentioned in a previous post Sweden has no ticket offices whatsoever. Are you going to blame Shapps for that?

Perhaps @Edsmith would like to tell us which European countries - other than Sweden - have taken the drastic step of closing every last ticket office.

Incidentally @A0wen, I don't care if you think Sweden is a "modern, progressive" country. A resident upthread stated that the ticketing system is hostile to tourists; and if it is the country that pioneered the fragmented, disintegrated model we now have in the UK then I won't be taking lessons from them. I'd sooner take lessons from the likes of Switzerland who have invested in a well designed, easy to use network - one with plenty of booking offices still in operation.

It works if they're only able to sell basic, local tickets in the local corner store, but they are never going to be able to sell complex reservations.

What about the reverse? Instead of a corner shop selling tickets, the ticket office can sell chocolate bars.

 

[A0]

I do not know the Government's intentions (nor do I trust them not to change their minds on a whim!) but I've already said what I'd like to see happen upthread.

Change needs to happen; the debate is about how, and what. Not if!

I think the changes as outlined will largely be implemented. There may be a limited number of tweaks, usually due to some local factor, but I wouldn't expect a wholesale reversal or keep ticket offices at all "major" stations.

Your last sentence sums it up. Only thing I'd add is this won't be reversed, not by the current government and nor by a Labour one lead by Starmer.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could you imagine that the closure of ticket offices under the Conservative Government and could be undone under a Labour Government

 

[Mat17]

You'll need *fewer* members of staff to floorwalk machines, as is the case in nearly all supermarkets where the 25 checkout lanes have been replaced by 10 lanes and 25 self checkouts.

There's a drive in this country to eliminate the workforce it seems and have machines do it. Yes it's been going on for centuries, ever since the Luddites. However, I really do wonder what jobs will actually be left in this country in twenty years time.

We can't all be sat at home on the dole, that'd be a real sorry sight - all superceded and useless, replaced by machines.

 

[AlterEgo]

What about the reverse? Instead of a corner shop selling tickets, the ticket office can sell chocolate bars.

Let's explore that a bit. Why don't guards sell chocolate bars? Why does another member of staff have to do it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

There's a drive in this country to eliminate the workforce it seems and have machines do it. Yes it's been going on for centuries, ever since the Luddites. However, I really do wonder what jobs will actually be left in this country in twenty years time.

We can't all be sat at home on the dole, that'd be a real sorry sight - all superceded and useless, replaced by machines.

Yet we have more job vacancies than people to fill them.

 

[Mat17]

Let's explore that a bit. Why don't guards sell chocolate bars? Why does another member of staff have to do it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==


Yet we have more job vacancies than people to fill them.

In what kind of jobs though?

 

[A0]

Could you imagine that the closure of ticket offices under the Conservative Government and could be undone under a Labour Government

Nope.

Beeching started under a Conservative Govt, Labour went into the 1964 election with a commitment to "reverse Beeching" but did no such thing.

TFL ticket office closures started under boris Johnson, Sadiq Khan didn't reverse it.

Starmer won't reverse this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

We can't all be sat at home on the dole, that'd be a real sorry sight - all superceded and useless, replaced by machines.

Unemployment is less than 1m - there are plenty of jobs out there.

 

[yorkie]

There's a drive in this country to eliminate the workforce it seems and have machines do it. Yes it's been going on for centuries, ever since the Luddites. However, I really do wonder what jobs will actually be left in this country in twenty years time.

We can't all be sat at home on the dole, that'd be a real sorry sight - all superceded and useless, replaced by machines.

I refer you to my post at:

Was the late 1990s the sweet spot for technology?

At the time of the late 90s, Windows had become established; Internet Explorer was around in dial-up format; cars were generally of good quality without all the complicated mod-coms of today; (large) mobile phones were becoming quite common. However, social media hadn't become a thing at that...

www.railforums.co.uk

Feel free to debate it further, but it's not for this thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

What about the reverse? Instead of a corner shop selling tickets, the ticket office can sell chocolate bars.

This is effectively already being done at Merseyrail. There are almost certainly threads on the topic. If anyone would like to propose expanding that concept, feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already)

But will you be able to pay in cash at Euston?

You can do that from any station and that is not going to change; if you are unable to buy at he origin, you can buy on board without penalty.

Edit: see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-office-closures.250712/post-6289324 where the ability to pay by cash was discussed; it's cropped up in other threads too.

 

[Starmill]

Almost 50% of stations are unstaffed now.

Very different proportion when you weight by users...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

They are not going to stop these ticket offices being closed.

Very few comments I've read are arguing that no changes should be made to ticket offices.

However, an enormous number of comments are objecting firmly to the large cuts to all staffing hours which the consultation documents propose. Some stations will go from a single shift staffed five or six days per week to a couple of hours per day, at the least popular times only, which is de-staffing stations in all but name.

 

[Pete_uk]

If more people end up with the wrong ticket for the train they are on, would that not be a problem for the on board staff?

 

[Starmill]

Let's explore that a bit. Why don't guards sell chocolate bars? Why does another member of staff have to do it?

I guess that this is partially answered by safety critical Guards having a train manager customer service role and some onboard catering role already on Lumo and LNER. Train managers who are the Guard also serve food and drink sometimes on CrossCountry and Avanti West Coast, or collect rubbish on GWR and EMR. I don't know if that's a convention and is their being neighbourly to colleagues, or if that's a formal part of their role for which they're paid. In general all of these tasks are secondary to other customer service like doing the ticket inspection, and this in turn is secondary to working the train in a safety critical sense.

 

[AlterEgo]

In what kind of jobs though?

Right, so you're not defending your original point that people are going to be left on the dole or whatever.

The problem, as I explained upthread, is that getting people doing unproductive and/or low-waged work is not in itself helpful or wise. In fact it has helped make our country comparatively much poorer over the last 15 years.

 

[yorkie]

If more people end up with the wrong ticket for the train they are on, would that not be a problem for the on board staff?

Yes there may be extra work for on board staff; however overall we have seen a big reduction in sales on board, and I can't see these changes reversing that, at least not in any meaningful/significant way.

For example it used to be difficult for a Northern Guard to get through the whole train between York and Church Fenton, but now almost everyone has a barcode ticket, they can easily do so. It's the same on many other routes, as experienced first hand by myself and numerous other forum members.

Indeed on Northern the issue was so acute, the company has had to change the way it provides commission to Guards, as on board sales had declined massively due to online sales increasing massively.

 

[Mat17]

Right, so you're not defending your original point that people are going to be left on the dole or whatever.

The problem, as I explained upthread, is that getting people doing unproductive and/or low-waged work is not in itself helpful or wise. In fact it has helped make our country comparatively much poorer over the last 15 years.

It's not about defending points, I was genuinely asking.

I can see a time when technology can virtually replace everyone's job role. Is this an ideal goal to be aiming for though, that was my question. It was no snipe at the dole, it was how do you find productive (and a rewarding career) if tech can eventually replace all. I admit it does wander of topic. But as someone else stated earlier, "passengers are becoming self loading freight", shopworkers are being cut for self service. Where will it end?

 

[Rail Ranger]

On board sales declined massively also due to the Penalty Fares scheme.