Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Topological]

I do not claim to be a typical passenger, but since all the problems on the Marches and the tendency to drop trains from timetables before 22:00 there has been more value in having staff around. It makes me wonder whether there is actually a false saving in closing ticket offices.

For example the 05:36 1W13 to Manchester leaves Swansea just after a 05:28 GWR to London and requires a long wait for the 06:38. Taking the 05:28 can get you to Manchester earlier than 1W13 with a change in Bristol Parkway. Alternatively the 05:28 gets to Cardiff for a connection into any 1W13 that starts there. Authorise a ticket on those options and there is no delay repay. Follow the instruction to only use TfW and wait for the 06:38 and 9 times out of 10 it is a complete refund because the later train won't reach Manchester on time and even a minute late ticks past the 1 hour after 1W13 would have arrived. The ticket instructions are very clear, you need more than 61 minutes delay to move away from the booked operator and the 06:38 arrives Manchester 60 minutes after 1W13. Without taking the thread off topic to discuss the ins and outs it is pretty straightforward to see that the decision made at 05:25 in Swansea can save a significant amount of delay repay for even 1 passenger.

If you imagine that at a busy location there is 1 passenger per hour who can be given appropriate discretion then it soon reaches the point where the ticket office pays for itself.

I can see absolutely that the ticket office is not what it was. However, the temptation to deskill and/or totally remove staff from stations has potentially negative consequences financially.

Of course the other alternative is to have a simpler system which says all tickets have full acceptance and advances become flexible tickets as soon as the specific booked train is cancelled / removed from the timetable. It is not beyond the wit of human kind to devise fully digital systems that would simply update the ticket live when changes were made, but in the UK we are not there yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is exactly it, and why the big terminals/hubs still have busy ticket offices.

Yep.

The way this is all being done by TOC (and with GBR looming you'd think it wouldn't be) is just bizarre.

I would have understood, and probably supported, something like "all Category A stations will have full Travel Centre facilities including full-service booking offices open for the full period of service, and all Category B stations and a small number* of larger Category C1 stations will have single shift Travel Centres open from 9am to 5pm, with all booking offices at C2 and lower closing". That would have fitted reasonably well with the numbers proposed. But what we've ended up with is a TOC by TOC mess.

* I'm thinking of places like Bournemouth, Bath Spa, Exeter St Davids, Portsmouth Harbour or Southsea. And possibly odd smaller ones with high tourist demand e.g. Windermere, which could really do with the railway, the tourist board and Stagecoach working together to create a "welcome centre" of some kind doing all manner of services from train and bus tickets to hotel bookings.

Remember merseyrail ticket offices are full national rail ticket offices, so they do sell tickets to any national rail station (and some other places, like belfast, dublin, etc.); I use a merseyrail ticket office semi-regularly to buy off-peak returns from merseyside to london. I'm sure others are buying tickets to places like Manchester; It won't just be tickets within the merseyrail network

Depends who you get. A lot of Merseyrail booking office staff are (and always were) very quick to try to palm you off on Lime St.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

Of course the other alternative is to have a simpler system which says all tickets have full acceptance and advances become flexible tickets as soon as the specific booked train is cancelled / removed from the timetable. It is not beyond the wit of human kind to devise fully digital systems that would simply update the ticket live when changes were made, but in the UK we are not there yet.

How to simplify is one for another thread and has been done to death, but certainly simplification would contribute to making this more palatable.

 

[domcoop7]

If some of the postsers on this thread were to be believed:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people per day, driving to an unknown railway station - without first having done any sort of check as to parking facilities available, staffing, opening hours etc. Upon arrival, they head for the ticket office (presumably on the off chance that said station a] has one, b] it is open). They have absolutely no idea what services operate from the station or what time the next train is. They do, however, know that they want to make an extremely complex journey, with multiple changes, requiring seat reservations and approximately 17367 different ticket options - which the nice chap/chapess behind the window will be more than happy to spend the next 20 minutes sorting out, as it means they get a break from watching the CCTV (Apparently one person sat in an office, occasionally viewing a CCTV feed between the hords of customers queuing to buy a ticket, 0600-1300 keeps the hundreds of local miscreants away). The customer doesn't own a mobile phone of any kind, and has had their bank card stolen on the way to the station, but still has several hundred pounds in cash on them, in order to pay for there train tickets.

Hit the nail on the head!

 

[AlterEgo]

The closure of Burton on Trent ticket office has already begun. 2 of the staff have left over the past year and have not been replaced. Leaving only one member of staff who posts the opening hours each week on the ticket office window. The opening hours change each week.
This is a big loss to passengers because they used to sell well over 50 Derbyshire Wayfarers per day. Anyone who asked for a Day return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock was sold a Derbyshire Wayfarer as it was much cheaper. Anyone who purchased online or at the TVM paid much more to these destinations.

That sounds like a problem which doesn't need a ticket office to fix, but simply fairer retailing. The idea that you need a specially trained person behind a counter to realise that one ticket is cheaper than another is not an argument that will end up keeping station ticket offices open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hit the nail on the head!

Unfortunately the "RUK Standard Minority" does have a habit of being wheeled out on debates like this, and it's not particularly helpful in working out the best way to avoid issues when implementing something like this because in the real world they basically don't exist, or at least not such that they are likely to ever travel independently because while the railway might provide the best assistance service in the world (ha!) they'll have trouble the second they exit the station.

The one thing I would say is that staff presence DOES affect antisocial behaviour, even if not watching the CCTV (which they probably mostly aren't). This is why I think effort should be put into getting businesses like cafes and convenience stores into the former ticket office spaces at a discounted rate provided they contract to open for long hours, particularly in the early to mid evening when most ASB seems to occur. They could even use Trainline* and chuck out e-tickets on their laser printer for customers if they wanted!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

That sounds like a problem which doesn't need a ticket office to fix, but simply fairer retailing. The idea that you need a specially trained person behind a counter to realise that one ticket is cheaper than another is not an argument that will end up keeping station ticket offices open.

While it seems not to know this one, the NRE planner does know about Rovers and Rangers and does show them as the fare when they're cheapest, so the idea that sales sites and TVMs should also do this isn't at all far fetched.

* Other booking sites exist and are likely preferable, but you know it would be Trainline.

 

[Athe]

Apologies if I’ve missed this. I’ve noticed on the Crewe consultation, the staffed hours (which aren’t changing) are quite in advance of the first trains, especially on a Sunday?

I understand obviously you need to open up a bit before first trains, but does anyone know why it seems so far in advance there?

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/documents/project-ivy/proposed-change-to-crewe-ticket-office.pdf

 

[yoyothehobo]

When are ticket offices most used? I travel through Leeds in the AM and PM peaks and there are very rarely 2 or more people at the ticket office there, i certainly cant remember ever using the ticket office there.

York is normally slightly busier, probably due to it being more touristy, but even so the queue is rarely extensive.

I think personally the last time i used a ticket office was in 2011 when i had to excess a ticket when i forgot my railcard and had to buy a new one.

 

[A0]

Hit the nail on the head!

Erm no - not only has it missed the nail, it's missed the wall, the room and in all probability the building as well.

Such a person probably occurs one one occasion in one station about every 3.5 years. It's a silly example and doesn't add meaningfully to the discussion.

 

[Topological]

If some of the postsers on this thread were to be believed:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people per day, driving to an unknown railway station - without first having done any sort of check as to parking facilities available, staffing, opening hours etc. Upon arrival, they head for the ticket office (presumably on the off chance that said station a] has one, b] it is open). They have absolutely no idea what services operate from the station or what time the next train is. They do, however, know that they want to make an extremely complex journey, with multiple changes, requiring seat reservations and approximately 17367 different ticket options - which the nice chap/chapess behind the window will be more than happy to spend the next 20 minutes sorting out, as it means they get a break from watching the CCTV (Apparently one person sat in an office, occasionally viewing a CCTV feed between the hords of customers queuing to buy a ticket, 0600-1300 keeps the hundreds of local miscreants away). The customer doesn't own a mobile phone of any kind, and has had their bank card stolen on the way to the station, but still has several hundred pounds in cash on them, in order to pay for there train tickets.

I fully agree.

Leaving the car as close as possible to where you want to be is always possible, just go down any high street. As for opening hours, everywhere is definitely open because if it is not there will be a bad google review and companies pay close attention to ensure that they do not get a bad google review. Once at the retailer, everyone knows that the staff are going to rip you off so the only knowledge needed is that whatever it is should be cheaper and that you are free to talk to the staff until it is. The fact that your 20 minute chat delays other 20 minute chats is fine because you are more important and they should have had more staff anyway, again see the bad google review. Given the time spent preparing all the other elements the need for someone to tell you how to insert your card is also pressing, plus so many different combinations of contactless reader. Retailers cannot expect customers to be able to cope with all that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Erm no - not only has it missed the nail, it's missed the wall, the room and in all probability the building as well.

Such a person probably occurs one one occasion in one station about every 3.5 years. It's a silly example and doesn't add meaningfully to the discussion.

I took the post in question to be poking fun rather than a suggestion such an individual actually exists...

 

[A0]

When are ticket offices most used? I travel through Leeds in the AM and PM peaks and there are very rarely 2 or more people at the ticket office there, i certainly cant remember ever using the ticket office there.

I keep making this point - with the major city centre stations most people are *arriving* at them i.e. have already got a ticket to get them there. It'll either be the end of their journey or they'll be interchanging onto another service. Such stations are usually nowhere near where people actually live.

York is normally slightly busier, probably due to it being more touristy, but even so the queue is rarely extensive.

Only thing I'd say, which is the same point I made about Stratford upthread, those tourists have arrived at such places from somewhere else. They haven't been teleported in and now need to go to the station to buy a ticket to their next destination. The exception will, of course, be London where tourists arrive via the airports or Eurotunnel. You might get a bit of that with Manchester or Birmingham, but not places like York, Stratford or Canterbury.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

I took the post in question to be poking fun rather than a suggestion such an individual actually exists...

I wasn't alone in my view - @Bletchleyite's post #544 made similar observations.

 

[Philip]

Those who struggle with English by and large benefit from using technology, because Apps and Websites can be translated into a language they understand - whereas you're average ticket office staff member is going to be, at best, bi lingual (on the basis that the population average is about 1/3rd are bi-lingual).

When it comes to explaining what they need to do to make their journey or in buying the correct ticket, from my experience we usually outsmart the app - typically they come to us showing an itinerary or an e-ticket but not having much of a clue what it means or what they need to do next. We then do our best to help them and most of the time they leave the window with a much clearer understanding of what they need to do next, with the correct ticket on hand - and most of them appreciate this.

On the times of disruption, frankly what matters is having a member of staff present, not having them sat in a ticket office. A member of staff on the gateline is just as much use as somebody sat in a ticket office.

Again this is ideological but unrealistic. Having a member of staff based outside in and amongst a busy concourse performing a similar job for similar numbers of passengers as they once served behind the desk is a clear regression.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

I keep making this point - with the major city centre stations most people are *arriving* at them i.e. have already got a ticket to get them there. It'll either be the end of their journey or they'll be interchanging onto another service. Such stations are usually nowhere near where people actually live.

I'll contradict this point by saying that I know of two city centre stations which have a ticket office for people joining the train and a separate excess ticket point for people who have come off the train; on most days the ticket sales at the 'joining the train office' are usually 2-3 higherper window than the sales at the excess point window.

 

[185]

Moving the staff outside opens the door (pun) to having no staff at all on stations.

Seeing the proposed 'staff outside' hours, it is absolutely clear that the DfT & RDG statement that this is to "help customers" is a lie.

Monday to Saturday 6.05am - 6.45pm

becoming

Weekly visits by mobile staff

Is not "helping customers" - it's turning local stations into unstaffed, unsafe crime ridden dumps, similar to Manchester Metrolink's stations badlands on the Oldham line.

10/10 for Merseytravel's statement last night insisting that they will not allow any Merseyrail ticket office to be affected by these plans.

 

[vikingdriver]

Moving the staff outside opens the door (pun) to having no staff at all on stations.

Seeing the proposed 'staff outside' hours, it is absolutely clear that the DfT & RDG statement that this is to "help customers" is a clear lie.

Monday to Saturday 6.05am - 6.45pm

becoming

Weekly visits by mobile staff

Is not "helping customers" - it's turning local stations into unstaffed, unsafe crime ridden dumps, similar to Manchester Metrolink's stations badlands on the Oldham line.

And you don't have to have worked on the railway for long to have seen things like this happen previously, certainly at my TOC, with platform staff removed, vacancies not filled etc!

 

[Lewisham2221]

I took the post in question to be poking fun rather than a suggestion such an individual actually exists...

Precisely.

I don't think I've ever made a journey by train where I've just blindly turned up at the station and hoped for the best. Certainly not since widespread adoption of this new fangled witchcraft called the Internet.

If I'm travelling somewhere, I generally have an idea which station I plan on travelling to and from. I also, generally, have an idea of what time I would like to travel. Almost as if by magic, somebody developed a way of inputting this information, processing it, and then displaying a list of itineraries for the journey. Even better, they managed to throw fares information in with it too*. And, shock horror, the ability to purchase the ticket as well!

On a recent journey, I drove to one of my local stations, staffed part time (chosen because the parking was cheaper. I'd checked beforehand, naturally.) Upon arrival, well within the advertised booking office opening hours, the booking office was in fact closed, with a note bluetacked to the door saying "sorry, closed on wednesday". I wanted a Ranger, which I quickly confirmed was not available from the TVM, so headed to the platform. Boarded the planned train, no guard appeared on the short journey, so at the first interchange station I headed up to the gateline, stated "I need to buy a ticket, the office at <my origin station> was closed". Cue short, simple transaction with the nice lady on the gateline, and walk away back to the platforms, freshly issued Ranger ticket in hand. Oddly enough, the local station hadn't decended into absolute chaos at the lack of somebody sitting in an office, and I wasn't chastised, frogmarched from the railway, imprisoned, beheaded, publicly flogged, fined, penalty fared or otherwise penalised for boarding a train without a ticket that I was unable to purchase before travelling.

*Yes, I know there's examples where split ticketing is cheaper etc etc, but I realistically wouldn't expect the booking office personnel to spend ages checking every split ticketing combination to save me a couple of quid. That's a problem with the wider system, which ideally needs fixing regardless of ticket office closures.

 

[yorksrob]

"Weekly visits by mobile staff" seems to be pretty pointless as people won't know when they're supposed to be there. A clear prelude to de-staffing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

10/10 for Merseytravel's statement last night insisting that they will not allow any Merseyrail ticket office to be affected by these plans.

1/10 to me. Merseytravel and Merseyrail persist in living in the past.

Merseyrail needs to accept e-tickets, implement contactless payment, and replace the pointless booking offices at minor stations like Aughton Park, Hillside and the likes with a couple of TVMs. Keeping them open is utterly profligate, they do not represent even vaguely good value for money to the Liverpool City Region taxpayer.

By all means keep them at the main termini and the Liverpool City Centre stations (so you'd probably keep Southport, Ormskirk, Liverpool Central, either Kirkby or Headbolt, Moorfields, James St, West Kirby, New Brighton and South Parkway), but the other stations need a modern solution.

It's beyond ridiculous that Aughton Park keeps its booking office yet Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston don't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

"Weekly visits by mobile staff" seems to be pretty pointless as people won't know when they're supposed to be there. A clear prelude to de-staffing.

I don't think the idea is that people do know. The idea is just that they'll do stuff like gritting, cleaning the bogs etc. They clearly aren't going to be customer service staff as such.

I don't know about the WMR part, but on the southern LNR part people mostly just don't use booking offices. The ticketing situation is fairly simple and, from observation, most people book on their phone and collect from the TVM if it involves crossing London. And near enough nobody ever pays cash.

 

[Trainbike46]

Depends who you get. A lot of Merseyrail booking office staff are (and always were) very quick to try to palm you off on Lime St.

I've never had that issue, so I guess I must be lucky. If that is a common approach, that does severly limit the usefulness of the merseyrail ticket offices

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

1/10 to me. Merseytravel and Merseyrail persist in living in the past.

Merseyrail needs to accept e-tickets, implement contactless payment, and replace the pointless booking offices at minor stations like Aughton Park, Hillside and the likes with a couple of TVMs. Keeping them open is utterly profligate, they do not represent even vaguely good value for money to the Liverpool City Region taxpayer.

It's beyond ridiculous that Aughton Park keeps its booking office yet Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston don't.

Does merseyrail lose money on their ticket offices, or is commision plus sales of the random crap they also sell enough to cover costs?

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think the idea is that people do know. The idea is just that they'll do stuff like gritting, cleaning the bogs etc. They clearly aren't going to be customer service staff as such.

Either way, it certainly represents the crumbling edge of quality.

 

[185]

I don't think the idea is that people do know. The idea is just that they'll do stuff like gritting, cleaning the bogs etc. They clearly aren't going to be customer service staff as such.

It is. It's up on an EMR poster. That's your customer facing staff. Come back Friday, Doris

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does merseyrail lose money on their ticket offices, or is commision plus sales of the random crap they also sell enough to cover costs?

It is possible that not doing e-tickets means they bring in *just about* enough commission to make them vaguely economic, but people want to use e-tickets, it's ridiculous that they can't and this will have to give eventually. Contactless would also be useful.

 

[12LDA28C]

Those who struggle with English by and large benefit from using technology, because Apps and Websites can be translated into a language they understand - whereas you're average ticket office staff member is going to be, at best, bi lingual (on the basis that the population average is about 1/3rd are bi-lingual).

On the times of disruption, frankly what matters is having a member of staff present, not having them sat in a ticket office. A member of staff on the gateline is just as much use as somebody sat in a ticket office.

I notice that yet again you fail to respond to @Philip's other points about people buying tickets online and not being aware of their validity (or lack of) and having to sort out errors including selling them the ticket they actually want.

You reply to points you believe you have an argument against and ignore the rest.

 

[peteb]

Given anyone can get hold of a card reader (e.g. someone selling things at a car boot sale) I wonder how easy it'll be for fraudsters in busy places to "sell" train tickets then simply melt into the crowd? And getting one's credit card out on a busy concourse is likely to tempt snatch and grab thieving. How on earth will a mobile ticket sales person manage a "queue" waiting for tickets? It's all going to go horribly wrong and there will be another u turn eventually .....

 

[12LDA28C]

There is an announcement on at least one TOC's website which states (in support of these changes) 'Our proposal is for you to purchase your travel online or via mobile apps before arriving at the station'.

The whole selling point of the rail system is that you don't have to pre-book but can walk up to a station, buy a ticket and board a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole selling point of the rail system is that you don't have to pre-book but can walk up to a station, buy a ticket and board a train.

One of the key selling points of the rail system is that you can just turn up and travel, like by car, yes.

Personally, I mostly do this using my phone, typically buying a ticket as I walk between the car/cycle parking and the gateline. But if you want, TVMs still exist.

 

[northwichcat]

Out of interest, how many of you calling for ticket offices to remain, use them on a frequent basis?

From memory, the last time I used a ticket office was around 5 years ago, to buy a Lake District day rover at Crewe, it took the staff member a good 5 minutes to find it in the system, the impression I walked away with was that they couldn't really be bothered to deal with my request and I was an inconvenience.

I would say the main reasons I don't use the ticket office as first point of call are:
1. Northern aren't committed to having ticket office shifts covered in the event of staff absence.
2. Pdfs and emails being better for work expense claims.
3. Cashback deals.

If none of the above applied i.e. I was making a leisure trip and there was no cashback deal available, then why would I buy prior to arriving at the station? Then, if I arrive at the station and have to walk past the ticket office window to get to the TVMs, why would I do that if there's no queue?

In 12 months' time, this will be a total non issue as almost 100% of passengers will have adopted alternative, modern ticketing methods.

If it's practically 90% now, this latest nudge will have a significant positive impact on driving that higher, plus further contactless extensions covering large segments in London.

Hardly worth changing much now when it will have the desired effect. It's a far simpler message to say get an e-ticket or contactless card - simple, and something the overwhelming majority do now.

You wouldn't be, 90% would have already bought them like now!

The news last night reported 88%, not 90%. Given even smallish town stations can achieve a quarter to half a million journeys per annum, rounding to the nearest 10% is not appropriate.

If a significant part of the 12% are paying cash and the machines are card only, those passengers will likely get permits to travel and then rely on ticket selling staff being available at the destination - if not, they'll travel for free.

 

[Scott1]

It is. It's up on an EMR poster. That's your customer facing staff. Come back Friday, Doris

They will be a Station Technician, or cleaner. They will litter pick, grit as required, and do basic maintance or raise any faults. There will not be a customer facing staff member, but an email and phone number will be provided to contact a helpline. This will be pretty similer to any other unstaffed station.

Facilities, such as toilets, will be closed on stations that only get a weekly visit, unless they are operated by the council, which a couple are.

That's the current proposal for most station's that are losing their booking office completely, though there are a few exceptions, for example one station near me is losing it's ticket office but is a dispatched station, so they are going to keep their toilets, as the dispatch side is not changing because of the stations risk profile.

 

[A0]

I notice that yet again you fail to respond to @Philip's other points about people buying tickets online and not being aware of their validity (or lack of) and having to sort out errors including selling them the ticket they actually want.

You reply to points you believe you have an argument against and ignore the rest.

Those mistakes and misunderstandings on ticket validity happen whether sold online or face to face - if anything online is *much* clearer because when you're booking it tells you the itenary. I realise some people can't even cope with that - but frankly is the rail network supposed to pander to the less than 1% ?

There is an announcement on at least one TOC's website which states (in support of these changes) 'Our proposal is for you to purchase your travel online or via mobile apps before arriving at the station'.

The whole selling point of the rail system is that you don't have to pre-book but can walk up to a station, buy a ticket and board a train.

Bit in bold - nonsense - and as we've seen by the growth in the use of pre-booking or apps on tickets, that really isn't what the overwhelming majority of customers actually want. And if they can buy their ticket in the comfort of their own home, not having to stand in queue for 5 minutes when they are trying to get to their train, that's what they'll do. Pre-booking now can be done a matter of minutes before you leave for the station - not days or weeks out. So the convenience is there - it just saves you queuing up at the station.

 

[12LDA28C]

The news last night reported 88%, not 90%. Given even smallish town stations can achieve a quarter to half a million journeys per annum, rounding to the nearest 10% is not appropriate.

If a significant part of the 12% are paying cash and the machines are card only, those passengers will likely get permits to travel and then rely on ticket selling staff being available at the destination - if not, they'll travel for free.

And of course some stations, as mentioned on this thread have a much higher proportion of ticket sales (up to 30-40%) carried out at the ticket office.

 

[Snow1964]

And London Underground stations don't have ticket offices, nor does the Docklands Light Railway or Tyne & Wear Metro - yet I'm pretty sure people with disabilities use all of those.

I think every London Underground station has at least 2 ticket machines, and virtually all have manned ticket selling locations (what used to be called oyster ticket shop) within few hundred metres, which gives alternative.

There are lots of rail stations with just a single card (no cash) TVM (when it works), and often they can't sell every ticket.

There are also stations with no Wi-Fi, and no 3G or 4G or 5G mobile signal and even those with a smartphone can't buy online at these.