Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Goldfish62]

It is a business - it just happens to provide a service as do other businesses. And there are alternatives to travelling by train - so there isn't a monopoly on transport provision.

But the biggest nonsense is claiming this will make the service worse. That ~90% of tickets aren't bought at a ticket office tells you that removing a channel used by about 10% isn't going to materially change the service. No doubt it will save money - and it will change the way some - though a small and declining number - buy their tickets.

So 10% of current rail users can just get stuffed and find alternative means of transport? Yes, that will be really good for the railway's future.

 

[43066]

It is a business - it just happens to provide a service as do other businesses. And there are alternatives to travelling by train - so there isn't a monopoly on transport provision.

But the biggest nonsense is claiming this will make the service worse. That ~90% of tickets aren't bought at a ticket office tells you that removing a channel used by about 10% isn't going to materially change the service. No doubt it will save money - and it will change the way some - though a small and declining number - buy their tickets.

It’ll save money (and is likely to be used to make further cuts to staffing, as otherwise why bother), but none of those savings will be passed on to railway passengers.

It will mean no change for many people, but will make the service worse for a proportion (similar to the TfL findings). It won’t make things better for anybody, but then of course it isn’t intended to.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So my local ticket office is closing quelle surpise but being replaced with a customer assistance person for exactly the same time so will still need to heat the office and provide all the same welfare for them but now there will only be one ticket machine and even those who know what they are doing need a good minute to buy a ticket. So will this customer assistance person now be provided with a portable machine more costs (they've not long installed new kit in the ticket office) or will they just be on hand to help people use the machines. Oh im guessing they will now need to be provided with cold weather clothing as well.

This is a bonkers idea if its about saving money but feels like its another Shapps special that the RDG have just rolled over and accepted. The industry is seriously lacking anybody with balls to come out and speak up for the industry.

You can't blame a government and industry bodies from wanting to modernise, especially when approx 90% (and increasing) of the rail customer base has already modernised and transitioned to other methods for ticketing and customer service, and would never go near a ticket office.

These redeployed staff, in time, will no doubt also go - but by that point, you'll be as close to 100% smart ticketing as you'll ever get - and the potential accessibility issues will have been largely worked out, it could even result in infrastructure improvements to support that.

 

[northwichcat]

But the biggest nonsense is claiming this will make the service worse. That ~90% of tickets aren't bought at a ticket office

How many of those 10% use the ticket office because the journey options for their journey are too confusing without someone explaining them?

And what about other services provided by ticket offices like adding/changing seat reservations, railcard issuing, refunds etc.?

And do we know how many ToD transactions go through ticket offices due to TVM faults?

 

[12LDA28C]

No doubt it will save money - and it will change the way some - though a small and declining number - buy their tickets.

Again - please explain how much money will be saved given that the staff will be 're-purposed' into other roles. You have so far failed to give any details of these 'savings', or do you foresee a reduction in the number of staff employed at stations, in which case surely the service provided to customers will be worse.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So 10% of current rail users can just get stuffed and find alternative means of transport? Yes, that will be really good for the railway's future.

You perhaps do not understand economics.

In reality, it is probably cheaper to let that 10% travel around completely free of charge than to keep all this ancient booking office infrastructure in place for such a minority. It is also a rapidly decreasing 10% too - it will erode further and further as people modernise in other areas of their life or realise the alternatives can be even better!

 

[12LDA28C]

These redeployed staff, in time, will no doubt also go - but by that point, you'll be as close to 100% smart ticketing as you'll ever get - and the potential accessibility issues will have been largely worked out, it could even result in infrastructure improvements to support that.

So you're openly admitting that you believe this scheme is merely a plan for redundancies dressed up as 'modernisation' - now where have we heard that before?

 

[A0]

How many of those 10% use the ticket office because the journey options for their journey are too confusing without someone explaining them?

And what about other services provided by ticket offices like adding/changing seat reservations, railcard issuing, refunds etc.?

And do we know how many ToD transactions go through ticket offices due to TVM faults?

Bit in bold - you can buy railcards online now. It should be possible to add seat reservations on line (I know you get one with an Advance ticket). Refunds can be processed online.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

Again - please explain how much money will be saved given that the staff will be 're-purposed' into other roles. You have so far failed to give any details of these 'savings', or do you foresee a reduction in the number of staff provided, in which case surely the service provided to customers will be worse.

Cost of maintaining a ticket office and the equipment therein for starters.

 

[northwichcat]

Again - please explain how much money will be saved given that the staff will be 're-purposed' into other roles. You have so far failed to give any details of these 'savings', or do you foresee a reduction in the number of staff provided, in which case surely the service provided to customers will be worse.

I notice Northern are saying about their roaming teams having the same hours as the current ticket office teams in most cases. Even to the extent that the Sunday hours for the Knutsford roaming person wouldn't be altered to match the current train departure times, meaning they'd start just after trains had departed in both directions when the service is only 2 hourly! However, with LNR it's a different case - they just refer to closing ticket offices and employing mobile teams, I can't see any guarantee of a minimum number of hours provided by their new teams.

 

[43066]

In reality, it is probably cheaper to let that 10% travel around completely free of charge than to keep all this ancient booking office infrastructure in place for such a minority.

And where has that been suggested as happening, please?

 

[Goldfish62]

You perhaps do not understand economics.

I most certainly do understand transport economics. I also understand the elasticity of demand for public transport and the commercial structure and economics of both the rail and bus industry, including the fact that fixed costs are so high on the railways that it's impossible to get anywhere close to the 20% savings that the ignoramuses in the Treasury are trying to achieve without major cuts to the network.

 

[LowLevel]

I notice Northern are saying about their roaming teams having the same hours as the current ticket office teams in most cases. Even to the extent that the Sunday hours for the Knutsford roaming person wouldn't be altered to match the current train departure times, meaning they'd start just after trains had departed in both directions when the service is only 2 hourly! However, with LNR it's a different case - they just refer to closing ticket offices and employing mobile teams, I can't see any guarantee of a minimum number of hours provided by their new teams.

EMR refer to the following proposals:

Full time staffing, usually 24/7 or first train to last

Staffing for most trains (there's a few like Loughborough where the staff don't stay for the very last service)

Daily visits by mobile teams (presumably some sort of a care bear type)

Weekly visits by mobile teams

In the case of weekly, it doesn't seem to be specified what these teams are but it seems quite feasible to me that the likes of Sleaford and Spalding could effectively be de-staffed bar a weekly pop in.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So you're openly admitting that you believe this scheme is merely a plan for redundancies dressed up as 'modernisation' - now where have we heard that before?

The railway, like any business, is constantly moving forwards. It isn't just going to stay static forever, that would be bananas. The world changes, passenger behaviour and expectations etc change - and the railway needs to proactively adapt going forwards.

A lot of these ticket office changes and modernisation plans should have happened years ago, and it should have been done in a more gentle, gradual manner, rather than saving them all up in one big hit - but we can learn from that going forwards into the future.

That time frame may be months, it may be years, in some cases it may be a decade or more - but there will undoubtedly be more change eventually - it is inevitable.

 

[northwichcat]

you can buy railcards online now.

But how many people buy one at the ticket office? You keep telling us around 90% don't buy tickets at the ticket office. That's not the full picture

It should be possible to add seat reservations on line (I know you get one with an Advance ticket).

When I said adding/changing I was meaning for transactions where you had already purchased a ticket. For example, you buy a flexible return and then find your meeting time changes so it ends an hour later, you now need a new seat reservation for a train an hour later. Or if you didn't book a seat reservation at the time in case your meeting time changed.

There's quite often a lot of reserved, untaken seat reservations on trains. They can't all be due to missed connections. We need to find ways of reducing them, not increasing them.

And what percentage of passengers currently use the facility at the ticket office?

Refunds can be processed online.

So if the TVM, in error, sells you two tickets instead of one, you expect someone to wait until they get home and then apply online for a refund, that could take weeks to process?

And again, what percentage of passengers currently use the facility at the ticket office?

 

[12LDA28C]

Cost of maintaining a ticket office and the equipment therein for starters.

So either ticket offices would be allowed to fall into disrepair, or they would be repurposed - quite possibly for staff accommodation at smaller stations when taking breaks from their 8 hours assisting customers to use the ticket machines?

 

[northwichcat]

EMR refer to the following proposals:

Full time staffing, usually 24/7 or first train to last

Staffing for most trains (there's a few like Loughborough where the staff don't stay for the very last service)

Daily visits by mobile teams (presumably some sort of a care bear type)

Weekly visits by mobile teams

In the case of weekly, it doesn't seem to be specified what these teams are but it seems quite feasible to me that the likes of Sleaford and Spalding could effectively be de-staffed bar a weekly pop in.

I was referring to LNR, not EMR. It's seems they'll make stations like Wolverhampton 'hub stations' but the others will get roaming mobile teams on an ad hoc basis.

Under these plans ticket offices in their current form would close over the next three years, but we would retain hub stations across the network to facilitate the evolution of retail and the multi-skilling of staff to be available where customers most need them – on platforms and concourses to help with journey planning, finding the right ticket and supporting passengers with accessibility needs.


Mobile teams would move between stations and would be deployed to offer extra help where needed.

Proposed changes to ticket offices

London Northwestern Railway has published proposals to modernise the way train tickets are sold at stations. The proposals represent the biggest change to customer retailing since the 1990s, when 82% of all tickets were sold at ticket offices, compared to just 12% today. In response to these...

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Again - please explain how much money will be saved given that the staff will be 're-purposed' into other roles. You have so far failed to give any details of these 'savings', or do you foresee a reduction in the number of staff employed at stations, in which case surely the service provided to customers will be worse.

None its being done for ideological reasons.

 

[Goldfish62]

The railway, like any business, is constantly moving forwards. It isn't just going to stay static forever, that would be bananas. The world changes, passenger behaviour and expectations etc change - and the railway needs to proactively adapt going forwards.

A lot of these ticket office changes and modernisation plans should have happened years ago, and it should have been done in a more gentle, gradual manner - but we can learn from that going forwards into the future.

That time frame may be months, it may be years, in some cases it may be a decade or more - but there will undoubtedly be more change eventually - it is inevitable.

I don't disagree with this more moderate post from your good self. Of course ticket offices can't continue with the same hours of operation for ever.

My concern is the scale, the speed of implementation and the total lack of confidence I have in the government's and the industry's ability to implement the changes well.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So either ticket offices would be allowed to fall into disrepair, or they would be repurposed - quite possibly for staff accommodation at smaller stations when taking breaks from their 8 hours assisting customers to use the ticket machines?

Nobody at all will be using ticket machines, whether TVM or at a ticket office window in a very short space of time. The stations will be boarded up eventually or repurposed as commercial/leisure/retail opportunities as appropriate, or just used as storage.

If we already have 90% utilisation of smart ticketing now in 2023 - and with further expansion of PAYG/Contactless etc in major population areas, within 12 months, and taking into account these closures which will nudge even more people to explore smart ticketing - it will be virtually universal - and we will all wonder what the fuss was about.

 

[geordieblue]

It is a business - it just happens to provide a service as do other businesses. And there are alternatives to travelling by train - so there isn't a monopoly on transport provision.

The railway is not a business, in much the same way that the NHS is not a business. They are both partially privately operated but essentially publicly funded and centrally directed.
I don't buy the monopoly thing either - I suppose the comparison to supermarkets doesn't really work, because the railway offers something different to say buses or planes (whether that be speed, connections, cost, timetable etc) whereas a pint of milk from the Co-Op is much the same as a pint of milk from Tesco. People can boycott a supermarket far easier than they can boycott a train station.

 

[A0]

But how many people buy one at the ticket office? You keep telling us around 90% don't buy tickets at the ticket office. That's not the full picture



When I said adding/changing I was meaning for transactions where you had already purchased a ticket. For example, you buy a flexible return and then find your meeting time changes so it ends an hour later, you now need a new seat reservation for a train an hour later. Or if you didn't book a seat reservation at the time in case your meeting time changed.

There's quite often a lot of reserved, untaken seat reservations on trains. They can't all be due to missed connections. We need to find ways of reducing them, not increasing them.



So if the TVM, in error, sells you two tickets instead of one, you expect someone to wait until they get home and then apply online for a refund, that could take weeks to process?

On the first on, I suspect most people are buying railcards online already, partly because you can buy them using Clubcard vouchers. Equally a number of the railcards can be provided electronically - so why bother going to a station to buy an electronic download?

Tidying up the seat reservation system needs to happen, but the data feeds used for that can just as easily be pointed externally to a consumer facing app.

On electronic refunds - no reason for them to take weeks. I recently cancelled a ticket bought through an app recently due to strike action and the refund was back with me in 48 hours.

 

[43066]

The railway is not a business, in much the same way that the NHS is not a business. They are both partially privately operated but essentially publicly funded and centrally directed.

To be fair any organisation that provides a product or service can be termed a business, it doesn’t need to be profit making (and the definition could include charities). The funding, corporate structure and objectives don’t really matter.

 

[eldomtom2]

For a general idea of how the general public are reacting to this outside of the RailUK bubble, here are some of the top comments from the major UK subreddits:

I rarely use ticket offices.
But when I use a ticket office I really need to use the ticket office.

I’m surprised no one has mentioned this Yet but what about the elderly and/or blind? My mum is 90 and has failing eyesight. She still takes trains occasionally. She’s ok with technology she knows but struggles with unfamiliar tech. So she would be unable to read the screen and even if she could she wouldn’t know what buttons to press. How on earth are people like her going to be able to purchase a ticket?
So these sorts of changes are going to make certain members of society unable to travel on their own, unless they get someone else to purchase their ticket for them.

No problem with closing ticket offices but it needs to be accompanied with mass ticketing reform. Contactless payments and prepaid cards nationwide, mobile ticketing everywhere, and simplifying ticket costs as much as possible. My guess is that the government will continue to say it's looking at these things and continue to do none of them, which means that those with complex queries will hog ticket machines rather than getting someone to sort it.
For example, there are niche options like discounted tickets for connecting with Eurostar services sold under CIV* rules, offering extra protections in the event of missed connections. You currently have to buy these at a ticket office by presenting a Eurostar ticket. It's literally not possible to buy these online. Daft **** like that needs fixing.

Be real sad if they go. As an autistic person it was always very reassuring to have a point of contact and someone to ask about times and directions.

This will hugely affect disabled passengers. There are certain tickets that I can only buy through a ticket office (wheelchair user discount that can’t be bought online or through a machine). I also need to ask station staff to organise a ramp etc, which normally means asking the person at the ticket office who radios the right member of staff.
Yes I can book assistance in advance, but disabled people do like to be able to be spontaneous! If trains are regular then I don’t always know which one I’m going to be able to take, if I wake up unwell and have a slow morning etc. Also even booked assistance often fails.
What about blind people? Elderly people who don’t have internet and struggle with technology? Tourists who need help?

So what about people that aren’t digitally savvy? Like my boomer parents still go to a ticket office to buy their tickets or ask questions and I don’t blame them - the UK’s rail system is complicated as is with so many different operators and ticket fares etc.

They took away bank branches and they'll take away ticket offices. I'm still young enough not to be addled and old enough to have enough life experience to see me through lots of situations and I get confused. If I were old or a tourist or had a learning disability or simply never got a train before I'd be really flustered tbh.

The general mood is strongly against closures.

 

[12LDA28C]

The railway, like any business, is constantly moving forwards. It isn't just going to stay static forever, that would be bananas. The world changes, passenger behaviour and expectations etc change - and the railway needs to proactively adapt going forwards.

A lot of these ticket office changes and modernisation plans should have happened years ago, and it should have been done in a more gentle, gradual manner, rather than saving them all up in one big hit - but we can learn from that going forwards into the future.

That time frame may be months, it may be years, in some cases it may be a decade or more - but there will undoubtedly be more change eventually - it is inevitable.

The railway has already modernised by providing new ways to buy tickets and travel such as online, contactless and so on. That is modernisation but does not mean that other ways of retailing should be discarded. Should cashiers in Supermarkets also be done away with so we can all use the self-service tills for our weekly shop, in the name of modernisation?

If it's simply cost-cutting then call it that, plain and simple. It's also funny how people choose to describe the railway as a 'business' when it suits them, and as a 'service' when they have a different agenda to promote. No doubt if you consider the railway purely a business then it should have shut down during Covid?

 

[A0]

The railway is not a business, in much the same way that the NHS is not a business. They are both partially privately operated but essentially publicly funded and centrally directed.
I don't buy the monopoly thing either - I suppose the comparison to supermarkets doesn't really work, because the railway offers something different to say buses or planes (whether that be speed, connections, cost, timetable etc) whereas a pint of milk from the Co-Op is much the same as a pint of milk from Tesco. People can boycott a supermarket far easier than they can boycott a train station.

You're not understanding it - the serivce is transport. Rail is simply a way that serivce can be delivered, in the same way a bus, car, plane or boat are transport. And there are direct competitors to rail now. That's why rail isn't a monopoly.

The supermarkets offer something "different" - be it convenience i.e local a 2 minute walk from your front door or large scale store with huge range. They are still a shop sellling a pint of milk though. A bus is transport, a car is transport, rail is transport. That's why rail isn't different or special, it's simply providing a transport service.

 

[Agent_Squash]

But because this is being done on a per-TOC basis, we're left with nonsense like Barrow in Furness staying open and Euston closing. Sure, Barrow is probably one of the places where cash is more commonly used, but cash TVMs are possible.

This is the most ridiculous part.

If you were travelling from Barrow to Euston, every other station is planned to have no physical ticket office. I believe this is even true going via Brum (not had a chance to check WMR operated stations).

Every station from Lancaster south served by Avanti is busier than Barrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So 10% of current rail users can just get stuffed and find alternative means of transport? Yes, that will be really good for the railway's future.

Or they can use TVMs or book online.

 

[12LDA28C]

None its being done for ideological reasons.

Of course. It'll be cost-cutting via redundancies all under the banner of 'modernisation' in a similar manner to the reduction in frequency of track inspections by NR that was one of the many concerns raised in the NR RMT dispute.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The railway has already modernised by providing new ways to buy tickets and travel such as online, contactless and so on. That is modernisation but does not mean that other ways of retailing should be discarded. Should cashiers in Supermarkets also be done away with so we can all use the self-service tills for our weekly shop, in the name of modernisation?

If it's simply cost-cutting then call it that, plain and simple. It's also funny how people choose to describe the railway as a 'business' when it suits them, and as a 'service' when they have a different agenda to promote. No doubt if you consider the railway purely a business then it should have shut down during Covid?

It cant be cost cutting if they are going to retain the staff so will need to leave the facilities open and maintained and heated. If anything its one more excuse not to buy a ticket and with revenue protection non existent on my DOO railway even more lost income to the industry.

To my mind they should be put on the trains to check and sell tickets.

 

[Goldfish62]

Or they can use TVMs or book online.

Lovely.