Future of the Voyagers?

[Techniquest]

Hi all,

makstaylor were discussing this topic on Saturday, following a comment that we'll end up on the final Voyager farewell. Once the electrification programme is finished (assuming it is), Voyagers will be a position of displacement.

Obviously this isn't going to happen for a good few years yet, but we got onto discussing where they might go. I believe we both agreed on them ending up on routes like:

Marches
TransPennine
Aberdeen to Edinburgh

So talking earlier now to DJC_158 earlier off-forum, I thought I'd open the floor to opinions from the rest of the forum membership.

*NOTE* Before I do, PLEASE do NOT allow this thread to degenerate into anti-Voyager discussion. Pro-Voyager discussion is permitted, but please try to keep it reasonably close to the topic. I for one do NOT want to read anti-Voyagerism for the millionth time, I suspect there is a growing number of members who do not wish to read such, for lack of a better word, drivel.

I look forward to reading your thoughts ladies and gentlemen.

Kind regards,

Julian

 

[Spaceflower]

To boldly go where no train has gone before..................














75,000 light years from Earth into the Delta Quadrant, preferably

 

[jopsuk]

Despite the technical challenge of adding wires to the Forth Rail Bridge, Transport Scotland seem quite keen to run electrification to Aberdeen. Edinburgh/Glasgow- Inverness perhaps? Is Cornwall likely to get wired? if not, then long-distance services across the Tamar- including from London- I could see getting them (and/or the Meridians).

Actually, that's a point. I'd reckon on the 222's being "redundant" before the 220s and 221s. There's more voters along the Midland Mainline.

 

[me123]

As mentioned, we're keen to get the wires up up here. By the time you get the Crosscountry route wired, I doubt we'd want/need the trains to be honest! Transpennine as well seems to be a good candidate for electrification in the not-too-distant future.

There's not really lots of places to go! But you could have:

• Liverpool - Norwich (although I suspect the problems will have been solved by then)
• GEML services beyond Norwich
• New services from Glasgow-Leeds
• New XC services to the SE
• A new or exisitng Open Access operator

It's kinda hard to tell, though, because we don't know when electrification across the network will be completed in relation to the other projects.

 

[GNERman]

What about on the Settle and Carlisle line as they need good acceleration
Possible boat trains in Scotland?

 

[222001]

The following:

- Liverpool-Norwich (problems south of Nottingham may have been fixed)
- TransPennine routes (doesn't offer too many more seats than a 185 though)

Also as has been said I think the 222s will be redundant first. And whoever is the operator at that time will simply displace them to Liverpool-Norwich.

I think it's about time Sheffield and Manchester has a decent service between them which Voyagers could provide.

Recently I was thinking that the Voyagers really will need to be made longer to cope with future passenger demand.

An idea I had was to remove a driving car from two Voyagers and then join the rest you have together. This would create 6 car Voyagers. It really is not an ideal soultion though as you get a lot of waste. Unless you run the two ends together on lines such as Matlock-Derby but that would just look funny!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Holyhead-Cardiff
Inverness-Glasgow/Edinburgh
barrow-Manchester Airport
all open access operators
Norwich/Cambridge-Oxford

 

[Snapper]

Holyhead-Cardiff
Inverness-Glasgow/Edinburgh
barrow-Manchester Airport
all open access operators
Norwich/Cambridge-Oxford

Good suggestions.

I'd add Cardiff - Birmingham and maybe some to Chiltern.

 

[P156KWJ]

Nottingham - Cardiff Central
Edinburgh-Wick (does that still run occasionally?)

 

[me123]

Edinburgh-Wick (does that still run occasionally?)

No The only similar service is a daily return Inverness-Edinburgh via Aberdeen.

 

[P156KWJ]

well I can't imagine doing Edinburgh-Wick on a 158, so thank god

 

[Phoenix]

Well personally I can only see them on.

XC
Birmingham -Stansted

VWC
Euston - Holyhead

MML
Just in general to compliment the 222 fleet and to also displace some HST's

Other than that my knowledge of routes and companies fails me in coming up with adequate routes for the voyagers as most companies either use electrification or have a full compliment of units which have a longer lifespan of the 221/220.

 

[djw1981]

• 5cars, and with FC - ideal for the Ed/Glas to Aberdeen's (whose passenegrs moan about 170's not being intercity stock)
• potential WC operation from Midlands to Stirling/Perth.
• Great for TPE to add capacity on the Manchester - Yorkshire routes.
• As mentioned, the Norwich - Liverpool
• Stansted to Cardiff
• Cardiff-Holyhead

So thats about 6 sets per route

 

[mrcheek]

Maybe some of the longer distance routes that use sprinters:
Norwich to Liverpool
Cardiff to Portsmouth
Exeter to Waterloo
Cardiff to Nottingham

 

[djw1981]

IIRc Electrification takes us towards 2020, when the Sprinter fleet will be approaching 30yrs old, and the Voyagers 18ish, so perfect for a mi life change of route... unless RVAR interferes.

 

[devon_metro]

Maybe some of the longer distance routes that use sprinters:
Norwich to Liverpool
Cardiff to Portsmouth
Exeter to Waterloo
Cardiff to Nottingham

Door layout isn't really very complimentary to Cardiff-ports

 

[CCF23]

Could they replace 159's on the London Waterloo to Exeter St David's on the West of England Main Line. Although they might be to long for some of the smaller platforms.

 

[Techniquest]

Some interesting ideas there peeps, I must say.

Cardiff to Portsmouth, Exeter to Waterloo, Liverpool to Norwich, Stansted to Birmingham and the Chilterns are my favourite suggestions made thus far.

A couple of people suggested that the Meridians might be gone before the 220s and 221s. Which leaves myself wondering why people feel that may be the case.

CCF23: I believe Voyagers have SDO (I haven't ever found a need to check this out, can anyone confirm or deny this?) so that would get around that problem. I should imagine most stations west of Salisbury should be able to take 4 cars (Tisbury is one that comes to mind which is pretty small though, so might not be able to), certainly would take 3 cars and require an announcement being made to passengers requesting they only use the front/rear 3 cars.

me123: Agreed that it's tough to say what routes will still require diesel traction after electrification yet, since no-one knows to what extent the wires will reach. Still, it's interesting to think about it.

Thanks everyone for the views and opinions thus far, keep 'em coming.

 

[djw1981]

If they electrify MML first (as proposed - the East Midlands is a marginal Labour area, that would be wires to Leeds, so the Meridians or whatever those 222's are would be displaced first.

 

[adamp]

What about on the Settle and Carlisle line as they need good acceleration

With their unreliability I wouldnt fancy being stuck in the middle of nowhere on a Voyager!

-Adam

 

[Techniquest]

If they electrify MML first (as proposed - the East Midlands is a marginal Labour area, that would be wires to Leeds, so the Meridians or whatever those 222's are would be displaced first.

Oh right, well since they've got some of it wired already it should be an easier job.

Should be interesting to see what happens in the next 10 years.

 

[Snapper]

With their unreliability I wouldnt fancy being stuck in the middle of nowhere on a Voyager!

-Adam

Their 'unreliability' compared to what?

 

[91101]

The Voyagers do not have SDO capabilites in answer to your question Techniquest.

There are a myriad of routes that would benefit from the Voyagers when they are displaced. As mentioned already, a whole host of Scottish routes such as Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness, or some of the secondary cross country routes, Liverpool-Norwich, Cardiff-Portsmouth/Brighton (dothey still run to Brighton?) etc.

 

[0209mlodge]

Even if the MML is electrified i doubt that the all 222's would be cascaded due to the need for Corby and melton mobray services. Also the remaining 222's could be used to heavily strengthen the Norwich liverpool route.
220's,221's and 222's could be used on:
FGW Oxford services
FGW Local lines
Arriva trains wales - perhaps another option for their north south route?
Northern rail - what they're doing with the 180's
NXEA - perhaps local routes that are in need of strengthening
or just EMT local services

 

[adambro]

Electrification of the TransPennine route would be a very positive move. Please add your support to this petition, http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/north-tpe/, although it isn't hard to guess what the government's response will be if you've seen similar petitions.

 

[Waverley125]

if we assume that

London-Sheffield-Wakefield Wgate
Peterborough-Lincoln
Grantham-Nottingham
London-Bristol
Bristol-Birmingham-Derby
Lpool-Scarborough
Northallerton-Middlesborough
Doncaster-Selby-Hull
Leeds-Selby
Manchester-Preston
Crewe-Holyhead
Preston-Blackpool
Northallerton-Sunderland
Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield
Leeds-Harrogate-York
Pboro-Leicester-Birmingham
Bristol pway-Swansea
Waverley-Queen Street

all get wires, then that will leave Leeds-Glasgow, Aberdeen-Edinburgh, Bristol-Penzance and Norwich-Liverpool as the express services with sections without wires. This will take up most of the 22x, allowing the HSTs to be put on standy for fallen wires. 170s, 175s & 185s will move onto local services in the South west, Wales, Lincolnshire, the Bittern line, Caldervale line and S&C locals. 158s/9s will also be used on these services. All 14xs will be displaced, along with the first generation of sprinters.

There will also be a huge influx of new EMUs-321/2/3s will be replaced, more 333s will be built for W.Yorks suburban services, while 357s will come onto Pboro-Bham and New EMUs will be needed on the Transpennine line.

 

[djw1981]

As yet teh Leeds-Glasgow service is but an Opoen Access pipe dream, so I cannot see NR electrifying it. Similarly the green lobby may not like the idea of masts across the S&C - especially if coupled to huge windfarms to generate power for it.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

No More 333's can be built i thought the design wasnt possible anymore?

 

[rail-britain]

a whole host of Scottish routes such as Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Inverness

There is no benefit in having Voyagers on these routes, except for additional capacity
Even between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh, not sure what the time savings would be, but it won't be much; the route is due for electrification anyway
I think their best utilisation would be for high frequency services along routes with line speeds of 105mph or higher; such as Edinburgh - Newcastle, Preston - Birmingham, and so on

 

[Guinness]

They'll be on XC for at least 8 more years. My answer would be what ever Regional Services over an 1 1/2 hours long that is served by a Sprinter/Turbostar Type train will be replaced with Voyagers.

Not all Voyagers will disappear from the XC Network.