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Future of the London Overground?

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jon0844

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The rationale is not rebranding for the sake of it but because TfL provide better services than the private operators

But now the Government is taking over, there's no reason that can't still happen.

On the GN inners, it's quite possible for the planned 4tph on each branch to be implemented. It would have been the DfT working with GTR to reduce the timetable based on falling passenger numbers, and now the numbers are returning to normal (or have) that should be happening anyway.
 
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JLH4AC

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Do commuters really care what the line is called?
People care about the quality of service which greatly improved after TfL took over control of the metro services formerly operated by Silverlink.
I suspect the only reason they wanted TfL taking over was because they didn't want private operators, but with that ending - it's not an issue.
Likely not as The Overground is operated by Arriva and will be until at least 2026, whereas South Eastern has been operated by DfT owned Southeastern since 2021.
 

jon0844

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I know what LO achieved at the start and totally transformed what ran before it, but under the forthcoming railway plans I don't see any urgent need to change more lines, with all the associated costs and logistics.
 

LLivery

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The S Bahn Berlin, Munich, etc isn't run by the city transport authorities, but by DB. They're not terrible and they're integrated. There's no reason why we can't do the same.
 

NorthLondoner

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But now the Government is taking over, there's no reason that can't still happen.

On the GN inners, it's quite possible for the planned 4tph on each branch to be implemented. It would have been the DfT working with GTR to reduce the timetable based on falling passenger numbers, and now the numbers are returning to normal (or have) that should be happening anyway.
The problem is, there are still many users who purposely avoid the Hertford Loop and the Welwyn Garden City services mainly on grounds the service isn't integrated and of course charges a more premium fare. Unless action is being made within integration as well for fare pricing, I can't see a DfT operation making any difference.

It's the same operator and board who were directed by the DfT and the treasury to make savings regardless of service usage reducing the metro services to 2tph from 4 (reduced peak service as well). The worst service since the mid-70s when the line was electrified.
 

miklcct

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The problem is, there are still many users who purposely avoid the Hertford Loop and the Welwyn Garden City services mainly on grounds the service isn't integrated and of course charges a more premium fare. Unless action is being made within integration as well for fare pricing, I can't see a DfT operation making any difference.
Of course people avoid a service which only has 2 tph and charges a premium fare (the difference between TfL scale and NR scale for non Zone 1 journeys is more than 50%). If it is taken by TfL, it will run it at 4 tph and charge TfL fares so it will be as popular as other similar Overground lines like the Lea Valley Line.
 

JonathanH

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The problem is, there are still many users who purposely avoid the Hertford Loop and the Welwyn Garden City services mainly on grounds the service isn't integrated and of course charges a more premium fare. Unless action is being made within integration as well for fare pricing, I can't see a DfT operation making any difference.
You are however being very naive if you think that getting TfL to run the service is the way to get lower fares. Where is the money for the resulting funding shortfall going to come from?

I think your point however is that TfL operation can't be worse than the current position.

I understand that the mixed mode premium is unpopular but it does help to ensure that passengers don't unnecessarily swamp the underground in zone 1 when walking is a practical alternative.
 
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NorthLondoner

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You are however being very naive if you think that getting TfL to run the service is the way to get lower fares. Where is the money for the resulting funding shortfall going to come from?

I think your point however is that TfL operation can't be worse than the current position.

I understand that the mixed mode premium is unpopular but it does help to ensure that passengers don't unnecessarily swamp the underground in zone 1 when walking is a practical alternative.
If I'm being fair over here, most of the Overground services have recovered far stronger than their National Rail counterparts mainly on how well integrated it is with network planning and fare structure. It's not sustainable if users avoid the line since it is expensive and would instead opt for alternatives as with the case of the inner Great Northern services. Not also about funding, but if it delivers wide economic and user benefits from every pound placed which I don't see happening on the lines which are a formal shadow of itself from the off-peak cuts to 2tph.
 

JLH4AC

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I know what LO achieved at the start and totally transformed what ran before it, but under the forthcoming railway plans I don't see any urgent need to change more lines, with all the associated costs and logistics.
Sliverlink's poor service was mostly a continuation of BR's poor service in North London, there is no reason to be so sure that GBR operating south London metro services will lead to the same level of improvement as what Overground takeover led to. Given that GBR taking over the franchises will lead to them being rebranded, and the management and staffing processes across the railway being overhauled, and it being possible that the franchises will be reorganised, I don't see the costs and logistics of transferring the control of a few services to TfL would that big of a concern comparatively.
 

jon0844

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Sliverlink's poor service was mostly a continuation of BR's poor service in North London, there is no reason to be so sure that GBR operating south London metro services will lead to the same level of improvement as what Overground takeover led to. Given that GBR taking over the franchises will lead to them being rebranded, and the management and staffing processes across the railway being overhauled, and it being possible that the franchises will be reorganised, I don't see the costs and logistics of transferring the control of a few services to TfL would that big of a concern comparatively.

Because it's much more than new vinyls. You have to work out what you're doing with the drivers and their facilities, who takes over control of those buildings and facilities and so on.

The GN services in and out of Moorgate are not run separately.

If you simply get TfL to ask GTR and then the DfT to just run the service as now, but make the driver wear a different top/jacket, and the trains are rebranded, what have you really achieved that you couldn't by just getting the DfT to improve the service frequency - something that could be implemented this December or next May, especially with so many new drivers likely to pass out in the coming months.
 

JLH4AC

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Because it's much more than new vinyls. You have to work out what you're doing with the drivers and their facilities, who takes over control of those buildings and facilities and so on.
It will be a similar situation for the GBR transition, GBR transition process is a lot more than just sticking new vinyls on the trains and stations. It needs to be worked out how the staff pool will be shared across GBR, what parts of GBR will manage which facilities and many other factors, a job that was likely made harder for the GBR transition team by Labour making major changes to the GBR plans.
The GN services in and out of Moorgate are not run separately.
Great Northern is operated as part of the TSGN but it can easily be split from the franchise if the DfT only wanted Thameslink to be transferred to TfL but is unlikely as no one of note in TfL or DfT wants that likewise none of them want to split up the Great Northern route.
If you simply get TfL to ask GTR and then the DfT to just run the service as now, but make the driver wear a different top/jacket, and the trains are rebranded, what have you really achieved that you couldn't by just getting the DfT to improve the service frequency - something that could be implemented this December or next May, especially with so many new drivers likely to pass out in the coming months.
Control of the TSGN is unlikely to be transferred to TfL before the GTR contract expires. Actually improving service is a lot more than just improving the service frequency. TfL being the awarding authority allows them a higher level of control over the specifications of the contract and allows them to directly apply its 17 years of expertise in controlling a world-class suburban rail network and 24 years of operating the London transport network to improving the services.
 

OneOfThe48

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Great Northern is operated as part of the TSGN but it can easily be split from the franchise if the DfT only wanted Thameslink to be transferred to TfL but is unlikely as no one of note in TfL or DfT wants that likewise none of them want to split up the Great Northern route.
Thameslink and Great Northern share drivers and trains, as Great Northern drivers also drive Thameslink services and 700s operate GN services up to Kings Lynn for instance.

It’s not impossible to separate the two, but it would not be an easy job. Would require more trains, more drivers and more depots (and money!).
 

jon0844

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Far easier for TfL to just work with the DfT and try and enhance the service, given the trains are already there.

It isn't like taking over an ancient line and having to buy all new rolling stock.

Plus, also consider the cost of taking over the parts of the underground stations that are run by GTR. They'd need to invest a lot in bringing them up to LO standards.

Again, I ask for what?

Back in the FCC days and when LO was first announced, I absolutely wanted the Moorgate services taken over. The stations were dark and dirty, without decent CIS, and the trains were cramped and boiling on warm days. But now we have a service that is every bit as good as London Overground.
 

miklcct

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Thameslink and Great Northern share drivers and trains, as Great Northern drivers also drive Thameslink services and 700s operate GN services up to Kings Lynn for instance.

It’s not impossible to separate the two, but it would not be an easy job. Would require more trains, more drivers and more depots (and money!).
The suburban services of Great Northern do not share trains with the mainline services of Great Northern. They are basically a separate operation.

There is no way TfL is going to take over Thameslink at the current shape but separating only the Great Northern suburban (Moorgate) services is practical. Simply transfer the Class 717 and those drivers who have signed them to TfL.

Far easier for TfL to just work with the DfT and try and enhance the service, given the trains are already there.

It isn't like taking over an ancient line and having to buy all new rolling stock.

Plus, also consider the cost of taking over the parts of the underground stations that are run by GTR. They'd need to invest a lot in bringing them up to LO standards.
These underground stations are already run by London Underground, so TfL is already investing in them.

Again, I ask for what?

Back in the FCC days and when LO was first announced, I absolutely wanted the Moorgate services taken over. The stations were dark and dirty, without decent CIS, and the trains were cramped and boiling on warm days. But now we have a service that is every bit as good as London Overground.
A service which runs every 15 minutes in the inner core, and every 30 minutes in the outer stretches, is not as good as London Overground. The only routes where London Overground is operating at a 30-minute frequency is in Zone 5 or beyond.
 

stevieinselby

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Because the Southeastern services are not solely within London?
[Chesham, Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Rickmansworth, Chorleywood, Watford, Croxley, Watford Junction, Watford High Street, Bushey, Carpenders Park, Cheshunt, Theobalds Grove, Epping, Theydon Bois, Debden, Loughton, Buckhurst Hill, Chigwell, Brentwood, Shenfield, Iver, Langley, Slough, Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading have entered the chat]
 

ScotGG

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Every time it comes up that TfL may takeover national rail services we always hear the same thing that the DfT could do so.

Thing is after, what, 15 years of this the DfT never have and probably never will - and who knows about GBR. I wouldn't count on it.

TfL have a tried and tested record for improvements and their branding - built up over many years - is almost priceless. It's also notable they didn't cut back LO services post covid and passenger journeys are now back and often above 2019 levels. Even with the Elizabeth line starting in 2022.

DfT rail companies operating Metro services within London or just outside are a whole different story. Cuts were made and in some cases nonsensical ones that seemed determine to drive passengers away and what a surprise, passenger recovery is lagging at around 70 per cent.

Invest in staffing, gatelines and maintaining service levels and it pays off. It also brings wider economic benefits central govt don't seem to understand.
 

JLH4AC

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Thameslink and Great Northern share drivers and trains, as Great Northern drivers also drive Thameslink services and 700s operate GN services up to Kings Lynn for instance.

It’s not impossible to separate the two, but it would not be an easy job. Would require more trains, more drivers and more depots (and money!).
Depots are a non-issue as there should be nothing stopping different operators from continuing to share depots when GBR takes over. The first two issues would be a problem if they split off the whole Great Northern route as it exists now to be a standalone operating unit but I see that as one of the least likely things to happen, it is far more likely but still unlikely for just the Great Northern route to and from Moorgate to be split off to be handed over to TfL, or the Great Northern to be spilt off to be merged into the East Anglia franchise.
Far easier for TfL to just work with the DfT and try and enhance the service, given the trains are already there.

It isn't like taking over an ancient line and having to buy all new rolling stock.

Plus, also consider the cost of taking over the parts of the underground stations that are run by GTR. They'd need to invest a lot in bringing them up to LO standards.

Again, I ask for what?

Back in the FCC days and when LO was first announced, I absolutely wanted the Moorgate services taken over. The stations were dark and dirty, without decent CIS, and the trains were cramped and boiling on warm days. But now we have a service that is every bit as good as London Overground.
How will it be easier for TfL to work with another government body that often has different goals and intentions (Also one that by the time the GTR contract expires is likely to no longer have any direct involvement in most rail functions.) to get the enhancement it wants than to directly set and enforce the specifications of the operator's contract? Thameslink and Great Northern not needing a massive amount of improvement would mean that the cost of transferring it to TfL will be mostly admin and rebranding costs which would also be the case for it being transferred to GBR which will depend on how rebranding each of them would want to do.

TfL would still demand anything they see as important for passenger safety or enhancing the service to be brought up to their standards. Regarding branding and wayfinding in parts of the underground stations that are currently run by GTR as it is mostly the same as the rest of the station, it will mostly be the case of replacing posters and putting roundel stickers over the double arrow logos. It is the Network Rail/GBR stations that TflL could take over management of if took over TSGN which would be costly to bring the branding and wayfinding up to TfL standards though it is possible that the management of all Themaslink National Rail stations will be transferred to GBR even if TfL gets control over the services.
 

NorthKent1989

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In the mid 2010s, a TfL takeover of SE looked fairly simple on a map I saw (it may have been posted on this thread so I won’t post it just in case) the map I saw said TfL would take over the rounders and Dartford terminators, leaving the Sidcup line to Gravesend and the Woolwich line to Gillingham with Southeastern.

It was later amended to include the Sidcup route to Gravesend, makes sense since many metro services now terminate at Gravesend to relieve Dartford of the burden.

This still left the Gillingham via Woolwich with SE, again makes sense as this was more in line with the Chiltern service to Aylesbury and the C2C line, a semi fast service running alongside a metro route at a frequency of 2tph.

This was part the reason they shoved Thameslink through this neck of the woods as SE didn’t want this oddity of a service but rather than routing via Blackheath then onto Woolwich and Medway, it was routed via Greenwich, which is primed for a TfL takeover with 6tph at that time, while the Blackheath-Woolwich route is the only service in the metro area that has only 2tph, which isn’t a frequency TfL wants.

Even in new documents the Blackheath-Woolwich route is left as a mainline service to Gillingham
 

OneOfThe48

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The suburban services of Great Northern do not share trains with the mainline services of Great Northern. They are basically a separate operation.

There is no way TfL is going to take over Thameslink at the current shape but separating only the Great Northern suburban (Moorgate) services is practical. Simply transfer the Class 717 and those drivers who have signed them to TfL.
They don’t share trains but GN metro and GN mainline drivers are intermingled and of course they also share their depot at Hornsey.

Do TfL share depots with other operators? Not sure whether they’d need to build one of their own.

It’s not impossible to separate them of course, it would just require a good amount of money and some more drivers.
 

jon0844

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They don’t share trains but GN metro and GN mainline drivers are intermingled and of course they also share their depot at Hornsey.

Do TfL share depots with other operators? Not sure whether they’d need to build one of their own.

It’s not impossible to separate them of course, it would just require a good amount of money and some more drivers.

Which is why I see zero point in doing it now. It isn't some service that has fallen apart, using old decrepit trains and stations that are dark and dingy. There are mostly staffed stations with new rolling stock. Adding LO branding really won't make any difference.

Increasing the service to 4tph will make a difference and it doesn't require TfL for that to happen.
 

boiledbeans2

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Greater Anglia, MTR Elizabeth Line and Arriva Rail London share the Ilford Depot.
There's also a Croydon Tram and WMT Turbo parked there right now. Is the depot owned by Alstom?
 
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Recessio

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Because the Southeastern services are not solely within London?
Would you be happy to have your rail services managed solely by councillors for Glasgow?
The people at the ends of the Metropolitan and Central lines in Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex certainly don't seem to be complaining.

Or should the Central and Metropolitan lines be transferred to GBR?
 

JamesT

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The people at the ends of the Metropolitan and Central lines in Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex certainly don't seem to be complaining.
Hertfordshire might disagree, given their promotion of the Croxley Rail Link which Khan cancelled.
 

Recessio

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Hertfordshire might disagree, given their promotion of the Croxley Rail Link which Khan cancelled.
That still doesn't address the fact that metro services extending just over the border isn't a reason to exclude the transfer of any further metro services from NR operators to TfL. Especially when the counties in question (Kent County, Dartford Borough, and Sevenoaks District) are in support of the plan, and the TfL board has at least two members specifically representing users of TfL services outside of Greater London.
 
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