Future of the conductor/guard grade?

[Mainsideman]

With the move over to GBR approaching, is the grade safe, likely to be kept of disposed of?
Currently thinking about my future after applying for roles as I dont want to be jobless in a couple of years id successful.

Any advice is helpfuk.

 

[Horizon22]

A number of TOCs retain services with guards. There doesn't seem to be much appetite for that changing in the short/medium-term, although I can see it potentially being discussed at some more metro / urban operators further into the future followed by associated industrial action...

The most recent situation was Southern and even then pretty much every ex-guard is still employed in a similar role and people were not made "jobless" as such. So overall, quite unlikely I would say

That being said, this is all highly speculative and it is nearly impossible to know for sure. But the same is equally true of many other industries.

With my mod hat on: if this gets too speculative, the thread will be closed or moved.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

My Guard friend at Northern seems to think their job is safe for the long-term. So does my SWR friend; SWR really seem to be struggling to get the 701s to be DCO!

 

[muz379]

I mean there have been efforts to get rid of guards in one form or another for decades , some operators obviously have DOO services but there doesn't seem to be any particular push at the minute to extend that and I dont think there will be during this governments term , at the minute it is labour party policy anyway for there to be no further extension of DOO so I cannot see it forming any part of the transition to GBR .

I think at a lot of TOC's though even if there ever was a move away from the traditional role of the guard as a safety critical role involved in operational duties , there would still be some role required for on board staff in some capacity at most TOC's .

 

[transportphoto]

That being said, this is all highly speculative and it is nearly impossible to know for sure. But the same is equally true of many other industries.

With my mod hat on: if this gets too speculative, the thread will be closed or moved.

I’m going to move this over to Speculative Discussions area of the forum.

Absolutely see the merit and value of a potential guard applicant wishing to discuss this so will leave a redirect in Jobs and Careers. The problem here is that we simply do not know the answers so it’s best placed in an area of the forum which better discusses speculation.

Hopefully this proves a valuable thread here in its new home

TP

 

[Krokodil]

In commuter operations (especially London, but also the Scottish Central Belt) the remaining guards' roles are likely to go eventually. Even then, I expect few compulsory redundancies. Operators like SWR operate a mixture of service types so natural wastage could almost certainly be used to cascade surplus guards from the inner suburban services to the longer distance routes.

I can't see Intercity operations wanting to dispense with the "train manager" - such roles on intercity and high speed trains still exist pretty much anywhere in the world you go.

Regional operators often cover absolute block lines where the current rule book forbids DOO and routes with limited ticket purchasing facilities and even fewer barriered stations which provides further incentive to maintain a staffing presence.

I see no reason why you couldn't apply for a local operator to you (such as SWR), in the knowledge that if redundancy was ever a possiblity you could apply to one of the intercity TOCs.

 

[LowLevel]

In commuter operations (especially London, but also the Scottish Central Belt) the remaining guards' roles are likely to go eventually. Even then, I expect few compulsory redundancies. Operators like SWR operate a mixture of service types so natural wastage could almost certainly be used to cascade surplus guards from the inner suburban services to the longer distance routes.

I can't see Intercity operations wanting to dispense with the "train manager" - such roles on intercity and high speed trains still exist pretty much anywhere in the world you go.

Regional operators often cover absolute block lines where the current rule book forbids DOO and routes with limited ticket purchasing facilities and even fewer barriered stations which provides further incentive to maintain a staffing presence.

I see no reason why you couldn't apply for a local operator to you (such as SWR), in the knowledge that if redundancy was ever a possiblity you could apply to one of the intercity TOCs.

Absolute block signalling doesn't preclude driver only operation of passenger trains, it's a common myth, though it will impact the risk assessment - I think class 377s operated DOO to Seaford until that was resignalled in 2019, and to this day Barnham to Bognor Regis is absolute block and DOO with an on board supervisor. Reliable cab to shore radio is most important and that is provided in the form of GSM-R nationally nowadays.

However I dont think it makes it any more likely that guards are to be dispensed with anywhere outside of suburban operations in any case.

 

[whoosh]

As the Southern dispute was about to ramp up, I thought it would end in a 'Strathclyde Manning Agreement' type scenario, where Guards would be de-skilled but still be retained and be booked for every train, only not being required with late notice sickness etc. No-one would lose their job, and still be retained.

That's pretty much what happened with their conversion into On Board Supervisors (instead of Strathclyde's 'Ticket Examiners').

I expect similar will happen in the future elsewhere in the country, and in fact, has been agreed at South Western Railway where Metro Guards will no longer operate doors and dispatch trains, focusing instead on on-board ticket checks and passenger assistance. This has only not been widely seen yet, now several years after their agreement was ratified, because class 701 introduction has taken so long.

Merseyrail has also moved their Guards to 'Train Managers' but an 'assistance completed/not required, okay to self-dispatch' key card or fob is used at each station by them, which still involves them in the running of the train to some degree.

Both SWR and Merseyrail have made their changes since the Southern DOO dispute, and Greater Anglia Conductors are no longer routinely involved in door operation or dispatch, but are still trained in case of degraded working - fault with DOO monitors etc.

As I said, I think similar moves will be made elsewhere in the country - a change to Guard/Conductor roles, rather than an elimination.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

I would say the role is safe - definitely at the Intercity TOCs and anything remotely regional operations based. Particularly on the basis that the guard is increasingly playing a customer service role onboard and continues to add an extra layer of safety onboard.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there are future changes to dispatch particularly in metro areas - the direction of travel on that is clear and given developments in technology it wouldn’t surprise me if the camera system at this rate had an additional layer added to it which scans for people and provides advisories to the driver. Something like that must surely be critical in the future given the issues with IET cameras etc. for anything longer than 5 cars (from GWR experience) and so the MK I eyeball proves better (and even then it is never easy doing 9 or 10 cars with busy platforms!).

There are so many unknowns onboard that having the additional second person is critical - personal examples include police to train, trespass, people stuck in toilets, giving information during disruption and of course ticket checks. It allows the driver to focus on the driving.

Staffing of trains has always been fragmented - whereas in aviation you have a proportionate number of cabin crew in the event of evacuation, seems to be no such approach to rail. It is bonkers that we have 12 car commuter trains with one member of staff responsible for possibly a 1000 people, yet there’s 2 car units with two members of staff for far less.

 

[Mainsideman]

Thank you all its kind of put my mind at ease, so it looks like the role will more then likely be modernised rather then disposed of. I shall pursue it as it has always interested me.

Thanks.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think the role is secure, but highly vulnerable and likely to be changed in terms of duties. As long as you are flexible and open to change, you almost certainly won't be out of a job.

I suspect someone fulfilling a lot of the customer service and revenue protection duties will always exist on InterCity style routes, but I'm not convinced that their duties around safety (other than in contingent or emergency situations) and operation of doors will be retained. Lumo has proved this is a viable and perfectly safe approach. You've also got, albeit vastly more limited in geographic scope, DOO on intercity type stock on GWR.

I would bet the house that HS2 will be pure DOO, and more akin to Lumo in terms of staffing.

 

[Mainsideman]

I think the role is secure, but highly vulnerable and likely to be changed in terms of duties. As long as you are flexible and open to change, you almost certainly won't be out of a job.

I suspect someone fulfilling a lot of the customer service and revenue protection duties will always exist on InterCity style routes, but I'm not convinced that their duties around safety (other than in contingent or emergency situations) and operation of doors will be retained. Lumo has proved this is a viable and perfectly safe approach. You've also got, albeit vastly more limited in geographic scope, DOO on intercity type stock on GWR.

I would bet the house that HS2 will be pure DOO, and more akin to Lumo in terms of staffing.

So similar to current setups at SWR, GA and southern? Those 3 where the ones i was looking at tbh

 

[I_am_Nobody]

So similar to current setups at SWR, GA and southern?

SWR guards are currently responsible for opening and closing the doors on the majority of the stock. Only on the 701s do they not open the doors, however they still close them. This is likely to remain for some significant time. As such, SWR guards operate differently to Southern’s OBS (On-Board Supervisors) and GA’s Conductors.

 

[stadler]

SWR guards are currently responsible for opening and closing the doors on the majority of the stock. Only on the 701s do they not open the doors, however they still close them. This is likely to remain for some significant time. As such, SWR guards operate differently to Southern’s OBS (On-Board Supervisors) and GA’s Conductors.

I thought the plan for the 701s was for full Greater Anglia style operation with the guards not having any involvement in opening or closing doors or despatch. Is not still the plan once more enter service. Or has that been quietly scrapped.

 

[Kite159]

I thought the plan for the 701s was for full Greater Anglia style operation with the guards not having any involvement in opening or closing doors or despatch. Is not still the plan once more enter service. Or has that been quietly scrapped.

It's been 'paused' due to various issues with station lighting etc.

Driver open, guard close is probably the best way, but that's for a whole different topic