Future of the Class 455 at Southern

[Minstral25]

The question I was posing was could the 455’s take over the Loop services terminating in Blackfriars in Dec 2013 (after the 377/6’s enter service) to release more 319’s to cover the FCC services through the core up to when the new stock is delivered, especially as they are going to diverted away from London Bridge in this period and presumably passengers will be looping round via Farringdon to avoid London Bridge.

A good example is that Brighton trains will need to run through the core every 15 minutes through the peak whilst London Bridge is being rebuilt to encourage passengers to use them. They are relatively lightly loaded in the peak currently when running via Herne Hill as the 30 plus minute frequency means most passengers would rather head to London Bridge (I work near City Thameslink and quite a few people go to London Bridge as there are not enough trains to East Croydon).

It doesn’t matter which franchise runs the trains – Southern could maintain them and loan them to FCC. The 455’s could run as 8-car trains. Obviously FCC drivers would need to sign them.

On Stock Southern have quite a few trains that need extending so the London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham/Horsham that the new stock will be used on will provide units to strengthen other trains. Not much of the Southern route mileage is actually being taken over by Thameslink, about 4 outer suburban trains an hour from London Bridge. The Brighton Trains are already FCC.

Obviously other than Southern and FCC will be merged in 2015 in the greater Thameslink franchise

 

[Class377/5]

The question I was posing was could the 455’s take over the Loop services terminating in Blackfriars in Dec 2013 (after the 377/6’s enter service) to release more 319’s to cover the FCC services through the core up to when the new stock is delivered, especially as they are going to diverted away from London Bridge in this period and presumably passengers will be looping round via Farringdon to avoid London Bridge.

A good example is that Brighton trains will need to run through the core every 15 minutes through the peak whilst London Bridge is being rebuilt to encourage passengers to use them. They are relatively lightly loaded in the peak currently when running via Herne Hill as the 30 plus minute frequency means most passengers would rather head to London Bridge (I work near City Thameslink and quite a few people go to London Bridge as there are not enough trains to East Croydon).

It doesn’t matter which franchise runs the trains – Southern could maintain them and loan them to FCC. The 455’s could run as 8-car trains. Obviously FCC drivers would need to sign them.

On Stock Southern have quite a few trains that need extending so the London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham/Horsham that the new stock will be used on will provide units to strengthen other trains. Not much of the Southern route mileage is actually being taken over by Thameslink, about 4 outer suburban trains an hour from London Bridge. The Brighton Trains are already FCC.

Obviously other than Southern and FCC will be merged in 2015 in the greater Thameslink franchise

Brighton trains aren't every 15mins in peak because of pathing issues south of the Core. In fact its normally 3tph with only two in each direction between 0800-0900 period. The big demand is for London Bridge so people will either be changing at Croydon in the south or St Pancras in the north. There is to be no increase of services through the Core in 2013-2015 time frame planned.

There will be a transfer of 8 off peak and 10 in the peak, trains an hour from Southern to Thameslink. The new fleet won't start doing running on these services until around the summer 2016 timetable change, by this point the routes will be under the new Thameslink franchise.

Technical point, FCC might not be merging with Southern. The next Thameslink franchise holder will.

One thing I don't know which affects all this is the joint peak services with Southeastern. We know the Sevenoaks are staying as it but the peak only Ashford, Rochester, Kent House/Beckenham Junction and Orpington's may end up in the bays at Blackfriars once we hit Dec 2012 timetable change. Nothing's been said about these and they are not going over to Thameslink in the future. These services will tie up the bays (meaning the loop trains have to go theough the Core) ahead of the complete recast of services through the Core as the final stage of the Thameslink Programme.

Also what would replace the loop services north of the Thames? Stations between London and St Albans would get no service apart from West Hampstead in the peaks. If you extend the Sevenoaks then there won't be any spare 319's so it's pointless terminating the loop trains at Blackfriars. Plus the rather vocal noises from the loop passengers and local officials wanting loops to go through after 2018 means more bad press.

Why I agree with the use of the 455, I think they'd likely be used post 2018 if they are still going to provide the new Blackfriars - London Bridge via Sutton service, I don't see them being worthwhile yet.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I don't know what to think about the 442s. I have absolutely no idea on this heaven planet as to why the 460s were taken off service on the GX.

 

[ert47]

Also what would replace the loop services north of the Thames? Stations between London and St Albans would get no service apart from West Hampstead in the peaks. If you extend the Sevenoaks then there won't be any spare 319's so it's pointless terminating the loop trains at Blackfriars. Plus the rather vocal noises from the loop passengers and local officials wanting loops to go through after 2018 means more bad press.

Wouldn't the Caterham-St Albans be taking up some of the Loop paths through the core?


[SLIGHTLY OFFTOPIC] Is the Northern City Line definitely transfering to London Overground? Since the 313s are likely to be replaced by the Desiros

 

[ushawk]

I havent seen anything saying the Northern City Line is going to LOROL. I also dont think there is a plan to replace the 313s on the route at the moment either, though there has been the posts of a 378 going to Moorgate testing, but nothing saying they are replacing the 313s

 

[Class377/5]

Wouldn't the Caterham-St Albans be taking up some of the Loop paths through the core?


[SLIGHTLY OFFTOPIC] Is the Northern City Line definitely transfering to London Overground? Since the 313s are likely to be replaced by the Desiros

But the original suggestion was terminate the loop services in the bays when the 377/6's arrive in 2013. Then use the 319's to strength the Bedford-Brighton line.

Your on about the Caterham service due to start in 2018, leaving five years with no stoppers north of the Core. Unless you started a Caterham - St Albans service early but rerouted them via Herne Hill.

313's have no replacement stock currently lined up. The plan is for the Desiro Cities to run all the Thameslink services with 365, 317 and 313's kept in service for other GN services. However along with the release of the 321's the may be some spare 317's. As for a 378 on the Moorgate, no-one knows if it did go as there's no proof but a few comment. 378's have been to Hornsey for wheel turning work so would have heading south through Finsbury Park. Think this has lead to the rumour they went on the NCL.

As for it going to Overground, it's alway been public announce that the Moorgate route is stay with Thameslink up to 2020 as the new Thameslink franchise says it will contain ALL current FCC routes plus merge with Southern and grab some routes of Southeastern. Network Southeast anyone?

 

[IanXC]

I think you're probably right about SWT having no requirement for them, although it would be nice to see them perhaps displace the unsuitable 450's on the long Portsmouth - Basingstoke - Waterloo runs, which would of course free up additional 450's for suburban use. It would be a travesty if they were scrapped, but I would think it more likely they'd just end up sat back in Eastleigh works for years doing nothing.

The most viable alternative for them really might be as loco hauled stock, obviously with modification/conversion of certain vehicles. The traction equipment is now very old indeed, but there is surely much life left in the coaches themselves. The 24 five car sets would allow for a decent few rakes to be formed up, even just using the two intermediate trailers from every set gives 48 coaches. The best option though would be to use the driving cars as well, creating power door fitted passenger stock with 'push-pull' capability. Surely worth doing!?

What about using the 442s for Exeter, couple a loco at the end of the third rail and use as push pull stock from there?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know what to think about the 442s. I have absolutely no idea on this heaven planet as to why the 460s were taken off service on the GX.

Peak time capacity. A pair of 442s can carry approximately twice as many passengers in the path normally taken up by the peak time GatEx services, and with the original 17 units there were enough to extend a suitable number of services through to Brighton. With only 8 x 460s, they couldn't provide an extended service to Brighton.

The initial plan therefore had 10 car 442s running in the peaks, and 460s running in the offpeak. Needless to say it was quickly discovered that this meant SN were leasing two fleets where one would be sufficient.

 

[Minstral25]

Brighton trains aren't every 15mins in peak because of pathing issues south of the Core. In fact its normally 3tph with only two in each direction between 0800-0900 period. The big demand is for London Bridge so people will either be changing at Croydon in the south or St Pancras in the north. There is to be no increase of services through the Core in 2013-2015 time frame planned.

There will be a transfer of 8 off peak and 10 in the peak, trains an hour from Southern to Thameslink. The new fleet won't start doing running on these services until around the summer 2016 timetable change, by this point the routes will be under the new Thameslink franchise.

Technical point, FCC might not be merging with Southern. The next Thameslink franchise holder will.

One thing I don't know which affects all this is the joint peak services with Southeastern. We know the Sevenoaks are staying as it but the peak only Ashford, Rochester, Kent House/Beckenham Junction and Orpington's may end up in the bays at Blackfriars once we hit Dec 2012 timetable change. Nothing's been said about these and they are not going over to Thameslink in the future. These services will tie up the bays (meaning the loop trains have to go theough the Core) ahead of the complete recast of services through the Core as the final stage of the Thameslink Programme.

Also what would replace the loop services north of the Thames? Stations between London and St Albans would get no service apart from West Hampstead in the peaks. If you extend the Sevenoaks then there won't be any spare 319's so it's pointless terminating the loop trains at Blackfriars. Plus the rather vocal noises from the loop passengers and local officials wanting loops to go through after 2018 means more bad press.

Why I agree with the use of the 455, I think they'd likely be used post 2018 if they are still going to provide the new Blackfriars - London Bridge via Sutton service, I don't see them being worthwhile yet.

Your first paragraph highlights my exact point - services at 30 minute intervals are not popular and hence people make their way to London Bridge by tube. During 2013 to 2018 when London Bridge is being rebuilt the Railway Co's (whether under guise of FCC or Southern or New franchise holder) need to make services more attractive to normal users of London Bridge.

Very few of the users at London Bridge actually want London Bridge area hence the huge numbers trying to get on Tube trains, Buses, Charing X/Cannon Street trains and walking across the bridge. Thats one of the reasons for Blackfriars South entrance to draw people away from London Bridge.

If you don't provide a decent service people won't go, especially if they have to wait 25 minutes if they just miss their train (few people can leave work every day and get to a platform at a precise time)

There will be a need thus to find routes South of the Thames to squeeze through more Thameslink Brighton services. I'm just very surprised they didn't look at this before starting to rebuild London Bridge - by this I mean looking at Line Speed raising, extra signals to reduce headway etc.

As for north of the core the Brighton services could directly replace the existing locals and Sevenoaks trains could be extended and made more regular as well, reducing even more services from London Bridge. Could actually use the AC equipped 375's on these services if they are diverted from London Bridge

I can see the Ashford etc Peaks going to the bays but does mean that you will be creating extra crossing paths South of Blackfriars which will reduce operating efficiency, better to run these through and put the Sutton services in the bays, hence the 455's suggestion or any other spare stock - at least loop customers are used to old grotty stock with no first class, they have 319's now

 

[A-driver]

I havent seen anything saying the Northern City Line is going to LOROL. I also dont think there is a plan to replace the 313s on the route at the moment either, though there has been the posts of a 378 going to Moorgate testing, but nothing saying they are replacing the 313s

There are constant mess room rumours about LOROL taking over routes from most London TOCs. At the moment the DfT are including ALL southern and FCC routes in the franchise so for now at least the NCL and SN metro will not be LOROL. Not sure where you draw the line with LOROl? NCL routes run out of the M25 so can thy really operate as far as letchworth and wellyn which are certainly not London? I know they go out to Watford but that is still within the M25 at least. If they go to letchworth then why not Tring or Milton Keynes or Southend or further out still?

Think LOROL will be interesting to watch, especially after the olympics. All is rumour at the moment-the only known take over will be the south London at the end of the year.

 

[Class377/5]

Your first paragraph highlights my exact point - services at 30 minute intervals are not popular and hence people make their way to London Bridge by tube. During 2013 to 2018 when London Bridge is being rebuilt the Railway Co's (whether under guise of FCC or Southern or New franchise holder) need to make services more attractive to normal users of London Bridge.

Very few of the users at London Bridge actually want London Bridge area hence the huge numbers trying to get on Tube trains, Buses, Charing X/Cannon Street trains and walking across the bridge. Thats one of the reasons for Blackfriars South entrance to draw people away from London Bridge.

If you don't provide a decent service people won't go, especially if they have to wait 25 minutes if they just miss their train (few people can leave work every day and get to a platform at a precise time)

There will be a need thus to find routes South of the Thames to squeeze through more Thameslink Brighton services. I'm just very surprised they didn't look at this before starting to rebuild London Bridge - by this I mean looking at Line Speed raising, extra signals to reduce headway etc.

As for north of the core the Brighton services could directly replace the existing locals and Sevenoaks trains could be extended and made more regular as well, reducing even more services from London Bridge. Could actually use the AC equipped 375's on these services if they are diverted from London Bridge

I can see the Ashford etc Peaks going to the bays but does mean that you will be creating extra crossing paths South of Blackfriars which will reduce operating efficiency, better to run these through and put the Sutton services in the bays, hence the 455's suggestion or any other spare stock - at least loop customers are used to old grotty stock with no first class, they have 319's now

Right let's start with the 375. They won't be used on Thameslink. Due to the design of the cab, the driver cannot look back meaning you need a guard to dispatch at most stations. Farringdon and St Pancras and all TL stations other than St Albans, Luton Parkway, Luton & Bedford stations don't have dispatch staff so you can call thee with 375's making using them somewhat pointless. Thameslink won't introduce guard full stop.

I doubt much will be done during the London Bridge rebuilt other than free Tube use and local bus ticket acceptance.

So for using paths on the south side for more Brighton service? Let me get this right, you want to cut someone else's service to provide the Brighton line with additional services! Why! They are used to the current service level. To make another service group lose out trains is madness. The current peak service is going to stay. A few extra minutes for a few years is annoying but it solves the biggest problem with Thameslink.

Sorry but forcing others to suffer in the interim period is not good business practice, especially when you realise the loop passenger get very little out of the Thameslink programme in the long term apart from new trains. Giving them 455's will feel to them them like getting casts off from Southern as some peak services are already 455's.

The Brighton train will be kept at the current levels during the rebuilds. I don't think either that you understand the problems getting from East Croydon to Blackfrairs via either the London Bridge or Herne Hill at this time of the day. There isn't any spare capacity left at the moment.

As fr the 319's, I use them for every day for getting to work and I don't think the /3 & /4 are that bad. Others in the fleet however are very bad state.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Peak time capacity. A pair of 442s can carry approximately twice as many passengers in the path normally taken up by the peak time GatEx services, and with the original 17 units there were enough to extend a suitable number of services through to Brighton. With only 8 x 460s, they couldn't provide an extended service to Brighton.

The initial plan therefore had 10 car 442s running in the peaks, and 460s running in the offpeak. Needless to say it was quickly discovered that this meant SN were leasing two fleets where one would be sufficient.

Fair play. Shame, I thought the 460s were quite good. I wish TOCs would just stick to what they've got! Makes it confusing sometimes and also certain routes are having modern stock replaced with older stock, I realise there's a reason for it but still.

 

[ert47]

Right let's start with the 375. They won't be used on Thameslink. Due to the design of the cab, the driver cannot look back meaning you need a guard to dispatch at most stations. Farringdon and St Pancras and all TL stations other than St Albans, Luton Parkway, Luton & Bedford stations don't have dispatch staff so you can call thee with 375's making using them somewhat pointless. Thameslink won't introduce guard full stop.

Just expanding on this, one key difference between the 375s and the 377s is the addition of external cameras located on the outside of each carriage on the 377 (2 per carriage - 1 on either side) connected to a display in the cab.

 

[jopsuk]

as some of the 377s were originally 375s, presumably the DOO camera and monitor system can be retrofitted?

 

[Class377/5]

Just expanding on this, one key difference between the 375s and the 377s is the addition of external cameras located on the outside of each carriage on the 377 (2 per carriage - 1 on either side) connected to a display in the cab.

Yes that main different between the two types of Electrostars really.

as some of the 377s were originally 375s, presumably the DOO camera and monitor system can be retrofitted?

No, the 377's were built as 375's originally, they were renumbered later on. It can be retrofitted for as it would only be for a few years you'd need the equipment for Thameslink, doubt it would be valve for money. Unless you want remove guards from Southeastern, which is a different matter all together.

 

[Minstral25]

Right let's start with the 375. They won't be used on Thameslink. Due to the design of the cab, the driver cannot look back meaning you need a guard to dispatch at most stations. Farringdon and St Pancras and all TL stations other than St Albans, Luton Parkway, Luton & Bedford stations don't have dispatch staff so you can call thee with 375's making using them somewhat pointless. Thameslink won't introduce guard full stop.

I doubt much will be done during the London Bridge rebuilt other than free Tube use and local bus ticket acceptance.

So for using paths on the south side for more Brighton service? Let me get this right, you want to cut someone else's service to provide the Brighton line with additional services! Why! They are used to the current service level. To make another service group lose out trains is madness. The current peak service is going to stay. A few extra minutes for a few years is annoying but it solves the biggest problem with Thameslink.

Sorry but forcing others to suffer in the interim period is not good business practice, especially when you realise the loop passenger get very little out of the Thameslink programme in the long term apart from new trains. Giving them 455's will feel to them them like getting casts off from Southern as some peak services are already 455's.

The Brighton train will be kept at the current levels during the rebuilds. I don't think either that you understand the problems getting from East Croydon to Blackfrairs via either the London Bridge or Herne Hill at this time of the day. There isn't any spare capacity left at the moment.

As fr the 319's, I use them for every day for getting to work and I don't think the /3 & /4 are that bad. Others in the fleet however are very bad state.

375's - good point I was not aware there was a restriction on use on Thameslink as I assume they were basically 377's which seem to work fine. Obviously there is a body shape difference I haven't noticed before or were the 377/2 and 377/5 built specifically different. Even though I thought Southern's 375's as delivered were just converted to 377's by change of coupling.


I thought (following discussions with Railway Managers) a lot of work was supposed to be going on to ensure that commuters have good alternatives and Blackfriars to District/Circle was one of the major alternatives but if you don't run trains then that is unlikely to be of much use.

I know it is difficult to weave trains through the Herne Hill route, but when the currently very overcrowded services from East Croydon (and South) to London Bridge are cut during the rebuild, what tube line is going to take the passengers? When the connections at London Bridge from East Croydon to Charing Cross or Cannon Street is cut what Tube lines are going to manage that!

I'm just suggesting some thought should be put into finding a way of adding services to the Brighton Main Line from the core in the rush hour, as a way of relieving London Bridge congestion during the rebuild.

Putting Ashford/Rochester rush hour trains into the bay won't improve the routings as these will have to cross on a flat crossing in front of the Brighton and Sutton trains at Elephant and Castle. So it makes sense for the Sutton services to drop into the bay now as is the plan in 2018 anyway.

Going back to the 455's which this thread is about. The one thing not solved is what are they going to be doing post 2013 when the 377/6's are running, the 456's gone to SWT and the Southern Metro railway in London is all 10-car as per the Southern franchise commitment? Ok they may not be on the Wimbledon Loop, but what services will they run?

 

[Class377/5]

375's - good point I was not aware there was a restriction on use on Thameslink as I assume they were basically 377's which seem to work fine. Obviously there is a body shape difference I haven't noticed before or were the 377/2 and 377/5 built specifically different. Even though I thought Southern's 375's as delivered were just converted to 377's by change of coupling.


I thought (following discussions with Railway Managers) a lot of work was supposed to be going on to ensure that commuters have good alternatives and Blackfriars to District/Circle was one of the major alternatives but if you don't run trains then that is unlikely to be of much use.

I know it is difficult to weave trains through the Herne Hill route, but when the currently very overcrowded services from East Croydon (and South) to London Bridge are cut during the rebuild, what tube line is going to take the passengers? When the connections at London Bridge from East Croydon to Charing Cross or Cannon Street is cut what Tube lines are going to manage that!

I'm just suggesting some thought should be put into finding a way of adding services to the Brighton Main Line from the core in the rush hour, as a way of relieving London Bridge congestion during the rebuild.

Putting Ashford/Rochester rush hour trains into the bay won't improve the routings as these will have to cross on a flat crossing in front of the Brighton and Sutton trains at Elephant and Castle. So it makes sense for the Sutton services to drop into the bay now as is the plan in 2018 anyway.

Going back to the 455's which this thread is about. The one thing not solved is what are they going to be doing post 2013 when the 377/6's are running, the 456's gone to SWT and the Southern Metro railway in London is all 10-car as per the Southern franchise commitment? Ok they may not be on the Wimbledon Loop, but what services will they run?

The same applies to the 375 as the 377, as both cabs are designed for the driver to look forward so a 377 on TL with no DOO monitors can only call at stations with dispatch staff.

Well there will be alternate routes as well as the Tube. Don't forget that there a a few Brighton services calling at Elephant & Castle so there is the chance the to change for the Northern Line as well as it being a major bus hub. You seem to be forgetting there isn't as much need as there currently is the flow to London Bridge now due to the timetable. People already know the alternate routes.

As for this don't bother running train then alternate are a bit useless, well it's the current network. Passengers do understand that we can't run more train through London Bridge as its very busy, no matter how annoying this is. Your point of adding more services is mute as you'd only cause more disprution. Why you'd want to increase services to London Bridge when it can't handle it is beyond me.

Current plan is during the London Bridge you reduce some services (which has yet to be decided which ones) but length everything you can during this time to the maximum possible length to at least try and keep capacity at near to current levels while this goes on. Sadly the point is everyone knows the situation at London Bridge cannot continue, it's not fit for purpose and I think a phased rebuild with proper communication and being honest with passengers from the start will mean people find a way.

As for the 455's, well what about long distance coast way services? I do wonder what Southern are going to do with them. Could Southeastern use them on some routes, ie Paddock Wood - Stood line releasing 375 and 465's?

 

[Southern]

Current plan is during the London Bridge you reduce some services (which has yet to be decided which ones) but length everything you can during this time to the maximum possible length to at least try and keep capacity at near to current levels while this goes on.

This is what I thought, which is why I originally suggested running more combined services to/from London. The Half - Hourly Horsham service could then carry a portion for Reigate one hour and then Tonbridge the next, splitting at Redhill. If the London Bridge - Reigate/Tonbridge services were suspended during the rebuild, the units are then freed up to possibly make the amended service 12 coaches from London Bridge, with 8 going on from Redhill - Horsham and 4 for either Reigate or Tonbridge.

As Caterham/Tattenham services won't be running through the core yet, surely they could run combined to Purley during the rebuild. Southern are again doing this on Sunday 15th January, which made me wonder if it's something they may be thinking about to enable the reduction in service needed.

 

[Class377/5]

This is what I thought, which is why I originally suggested running more combined services to/from London. The Half - Hourly Horsham service could then carry a portion for Reigate one hour and then Tonbridge the next, splitting at Redhill. If the London Bridge - Reigate/Tonbridge services were suspended during the rebuild, the units are then freed up to possibly make the amended service 12 coaches from London Bridge, with 8 going on from Redhill - Horsham and 4 for either Reigate or Tonbridge.

As Caterham/Tattenham services won't be running through the core yet, surely they could run combined to Purley during the rebuild. Southern are again doing this on Sunday 15th January, which made me wonder if it's something they may be thinking about to enable the reduction in service needed.

Sound reasonable. That way you'll saving valvable paths into London Bridge but still providing a service is the ideal soluation.

Maybe if the workings work well then they will implement this soluation during the rebuild.

 

[Class172]

I haven't a clue whether this is feasible but could the 442s be given a new life by converting them to AC power, replacing the aged traction equipment from the original class 432s. If this could be done then there would be plenty of places they could go across the network. Somehow though I'm not sure this could be done.

 

[ert47]

Although this probably wont happen could some trains that would have cut going into London Bridge terminated at Norwood Junction? Since LO took over management, the derelict platform 7 has been cleared out, maybe trains could be terminated in Platform 5 (or 4) and the slow downs moved over to platform 6/7. Could thos ever happen?

I only suggest this because sometimes I've seen empty trains shunted into the platforms during the day and East Croydon wouldn't have the capacity. (though Caterham and Tattenham Corner trains will prob be terminated at Purley)

 

[ushawk]

As i said before, 442s wont be scrapped until the GatEx goes at the earliest, even if it did go they would remain at Southern as they will still be needed due to their use on the Brighton Express and other peak workings.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although this probably wont happen could some trains that would have cut going into London Bridge terminated at Norwood Junction? Since LO took over management, the derelict platform 7 has been cleared out, maybe trains could be terminated in Platform 5 (or 4) and the slow downs moved over to platform 6/7. Could thos ever happen?

I only suggest this because sometimes I've seen empty trains shunted into the platforms during the day and East Croydon wouldn't have the capacity. (though Caterham and Tattenham Corner trains will prob be terminated at Purley)

I suspect any tidying up is just that at this stage, however there's a CP5 proposal curently under development to bring platform 7 at Norwood Jn back into use to allow trains arriving from the Crystal Palace direction to terminate. The down Crystal Palace spur will be made reversible, and the junction with the Beckenham Jn line altered to suit northbound departures from P7; so this is not for LO's benefit, but SN's - it frees up a 10 car train in the peak, which can be transferred to other duties.

It will also kill two birds with one stone if the branch is handed over to Tramlink for its proposed Crystal Palace route...

 

[Minstral25]

The same applies to the 375 as the 377, as both cabs are designed for the driver to look forward so a 377 on TL with no DOO monitors can only call at stations with dispatch staff.

Well there will be alternate routes as well as the Tube. Don't forget that there a a few Brighton services calling at Elephant & Castle so there is the chance the to change for the Northern Line as well as it being a major bus hub. You seem to be forgetting there isn't as much need as there currently is the flow to London Bridge now due to the timetable. People already know the alternate routes.

As for this don't bother running train then alternate are a bit useless, well it's the current network. Passengers do understand that we can't run more train through London Bridge as its very busy, no matter how annoying this is. Your point of adding more services is mute as you'd only cause more disprution. Why you'd want to increase services to London Bridge when it can't handle it is beyond me.

Current plan is during the London Bridge you reduce some services (which has yet to be decided which ones) but length everything you can during this time to the maximum possible length to at least try and keep capacity at near to current levels while this goes on. Sadly the point is everyone knows the situation at London Bridge cannot continue, it's not fit for purpose and I think a phased rebuild with proper communication and being honest with passengers from the start will mean people find a way.

As for the 455's, well what about long distance coast way services? I do wonder what Southern are going to do with them. Could Southeastern use them on some routes, ie Paddock Wood - Stood line releasing 375 and 465's?

So the 375's could actually run in the same service patterns as the 377's - not going to happen but using services off the SE territories is better use of paths as they don't cross over at the entrance to Blackfriars.

I think all passengers expect disruption when London Bridge is rebuilt and no-one expects it to be easy - my points were aimed at asking about alternatives whilst disruption takes place. It is very viable for people to use the Thameslink route as an alternative to London Bridge (Farringdon to connect for Moorgate for example or Blackfriars to connect for Cannon Street or Bank(via Monument) or for Charing Cross).

So it seems logical to try and squeeze more trains in from the BML and I don't just mean Brighton but from East Croydon which has significant numbers of passengers joining plus lots of connection opportunities.

Commuters will not use Thameslink when there is only two trains an hour, they will go to London Bridge where there is 14 per hour at peak - even after the reduction this unlikely to go to less than 12 per hour - saves them worrying about getting a specific train
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is what I thought, which is why I originally suggested running more combined services to/from London. The Half - Hourly Horsham service could then carry a portion for Reigate one hour and then Tonbridge the next, splitting at Redhill. If the London Bridge - Reigate/Tonbridge services were suspended during the rebuild, the units are then freed up to possibly make the amended service 12 coaches from London Bridge, with 8 going on from Redhill - Horsham and 4 for either Reigate or Tonbridge.

As Caterham/Tattenham services won't be running through the core yet, surely they could run combined to Purley during the rebuild. Southern are again doing this on Sunday 15th January, which made me wonder if it's something they may be thinking about to enable the reduction in service needed.

Don't think these trains will be much of a problem as they are the off-peak services and as four trains an hour LBG-NXG-Norwood-ECR-Purley-Redhill they have developed quite a lot of custom. Reducing them back to twice an hour will lose some of this. I don't think off-peak is an issue during rebuilding and during the peak your suggestion is what happens as these trains only run at 2x per hour frequency as half their paths are taken up by the East Grinstead peak only services

 

[Southern]

Don't think these trains will be much of a problem as they are the off-peak services and as four trains an hour LBG-NXG-Norwood-ECR-Purley-Redhill they have developed quite a lot of custom. Reducing them back to twice an hour will lose some of this. I don't think off-peak is an issue during rebuilding and during the peak your suggestion is what happens as these trains only run at 2x per hour frequency as half their paths are taken up by the East Grinstead peak only services

As has been said, the plan is to reduce some services, something which passengers will simply need to adapt to. What else do you propose be done to reduce some services? The SLL should have transferred to London Overground by then so that's 2 paths in/out of London Bridge freed up. I suppose the Uckfield could either be terminated at Oxted or East Croydon, that's another path. Aside from that, isn't really much else I can think of that you could reduce.

 

[Class377/5]

So the 375's could actually run in the same service patterns as the 377's - not going to happen but using services off the SE territories is better use of paths as they don't cross over at the entrance to Blackfriars.

I think all passengers expect disruption when London Bridge is rebuilt and no-one expects it to be easy - my points were aimed at asking about alternatives whilst disruption takes place. It is very viable for people to use the Thameslink route as an alternative to London Bridge (Farringdon to connect for Moorgate for example or Blackfriars to connect for Cannon Street or Bank(via Monument) or for Charing Cross).

So it seems logical to try and squeeze more trains in from the BML and I don't just mean Brighton but from East Croydon which has significant numbers of passengers joining plus lots of connection opportunities.

Commuters will not use Thameslink when there is only two trains an hour, they will go to London Bridge where there is 14 per hour at peak - even after the reduction this unlikely to go to less than 12 per hour - saves them worrying about getting a specific train

No the 375 cannot run in the same way as 377 on the Thameslink part due to lack of camera meaning there is no way currently they could be used. That's beside the point of does the OHLE actually work in the 375/6's which hasn't been used in service ever.

As for using SE service to the Core, this doesn't help London Bridge at all. As by the time the SE services are affected it's fairly late into the programme and at this point you lose the ability to run from Blackfrairs to London Bridge while they work on the link between the two.

Commuters won't use a 2tph service? The current service in high peak of 2tph is very well used and that doesn't go via London Bridge. At the moment people who want London Bridge from the Brighton line use Southern in the peak if they need London Bridge. Unless your suggesting shifting Southern passengers onto Thameslink to bypass London Bridge? The best hope is put one or two 12 cars into the bays at Blackfriars from East Croydon. As that will be coming via Herne Hill it doesn't have to mean the loop services have to terminate at Blackfriars as they will be using the same track through Loughborough Junction any way. But again this creates the same problem of paths through Herne Hill and some driver training needed for the new route.

 

[Minstral25]

As has been said, the plan is to reduce some services, something which passengers will simply need to adapt to. What else do you propose be done to reduce some services? The SLL should have transferred to London Overground by then so that's 2 paths in/out of London Bridge freed up. I suppose the Uckfield could either be terminated at Oxted or East Croydon, that's another path. Aside from that, isn't really much else I can think of that you could reduce.

The point I was trying to make is that London Bridge terminator platforms has (if I remember correctly) 29 or 30 trains per hour in the peak from 9 platforms which will become 24 per hour from 6 platforms during and after the rebuild.

However the off peak service (which include Horsham/Reigate/Tonbridge services) will only be 13 per hour (currently 15 but South London Lines trains will go) from the terminator platforms - which the reduced platforms will be able to handle if they can handle 24 per hour in the peak.

In the evening peak there are 2 Horsham trains per hour some of which have Reigate or Tonbridge portions and no Reigate or Tonbridge only trains.

I'm happy to be corrected if my numbers are wrong because it is only from memory
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Commuters won't use a 2tph service? The current service in high peak of 2tph is very well used and that doesn't go via London Bridge. At the moment people who want London Bridge from the Brighton line use Southern in the peak if they need London Bridge. Unless your suggesting shifting Southern passengers onto Thameslink to bypass London Bridge? The best hope is put one or two 12 cars into the bays at Blackfriars from East Croydon. As that will be coming via Herne Hill it doesn't have to mean the loop services have to terminate at Blackfriars as they will be using the same track through Loughborough Junction any way. But again this creates the same problem of paths through Herne Hill and some driver training needed for the new route.

They don't, my old regular train and my new one

17:59 from London Bridge - 12 coaches - all coaches have standing and have to get on at least 10 minutes before departure to ensure a seat

17:51 from Blackfriars - 4 coaches and I always get a seat from City! Rarely any standing but does happen - be interesting to see if this is busier once the Tube link is back at Blackfriars

But actually I was wrong in the first place - I only look at the Redhill trains and to East Croydon there is three trains an hour in the peak - my apologies.

The basis of my original point is that there are several people who avoid City Thameslink in my office and go to Cannon Street to change at LBG as they feel there is a better service from LBG to East Croydon, even though City is much closer

I do like the idea of trains via Herne Hill in the peak from Blackfriars Terminators to East Croydon. That will help with encouraging passengers away from LBG during the rebuild which I see as a must. They could go on to Three Bridges via Redhill and I will be a very happy guy

 

[Class377/5]

They don't, my old regular train and my new one

17:59 from London Bridge - 12 coaches - all coaches have standing and have to get on at least 10 minutes before departure to ensure a seat

17:51 from Blackfriars - 4 coaches and I always get a seat from City! Rarely any standing but does happen - be interesting to see if this is busier once the Tube link is back at Blackfriars

But actually I was wrong in the first place - I only look at the Redhill trains and to East Croydon there is three trains an hour in the peak - my apologies.

The basis of my original point is that there are several people who avoid City Thameslink in my office and go to Cannon Street to change at LBG as they feel there is a better service from LBG to East Croydon, even though City is much closer

I do like the idea of trains via Herne Hill in the peak from Blackfriars Terminators to East Croydon. That will help with encouraging passengers away from LBG during the rebuild which I see as a must. They could go on to Three Bridges via Redhill and I will be a very happy guy

The four car from Blackfriars is the St Pancras - Three Bridges service. That's why it's quiet, most people at that time want to go further onwards and get an alternate direct train rather than change at Three Bridges.

I don't see why the future Southern services couldn't be diverted onto the bays in 12 car formations. Something like the Horsham - London Bridge service would be a good start. But it's going to be tight. I think forcing through an extra one or two non stopping paths could be done and the Thameslink Programme is an big enough event to make it happen.

 

[Minstral25]

The four car from Blackfriars is the St Pancras - Three Bridges service. That's why it's quiet, most people at that time want to go further onwards and get an alternate direct train rather than change at Three Bridges.

I don't see why the future Southern services couldn't be diverted onto the bays in 12 car formations. Something like the Horsham - London Bridge service would be a good start. But it's going to be tight. I think forcing through an extra one or two non stopping paths could be done and the Thameslink Programme is an big enough event to make it happen.

On most trains from London Bridge are rammed to the London Suburbs but then travel onwards "relatively" empty - as I said my colleagues mostly get off at East Croydon. Southbound trains are just not packed from the Core (as a regular from City on various trains)- the 12 coach train they run at around 18:15 is from London Bridge which is why I see the route as an untapped potential during the rebuild. They would be mad not to look at fitting in extra trains

 

[Class377/5]

On most trains from London Bridge are rammed to the London Suburbs but then travel onwards "relatively" empty - as I said my colleagues mostly get off at East Croydon. Southbound trains are just not packed from the Core (as a regular from City on various trains)- the 12 coach train they run at around 18:15 is from London Bridge which is why I see the route as an untapped potential during the rebuild. They would be mad not to look at fitting in extra trains

I think we need a new thread along the lines of "Thameslink Programme, alterations that should be made"!